Longtime listener first time caller... Log book question.

[The Big Bad Wolf]

I'm looking at a vintage vee with no log books. Is it possible to be able to attain new log books and how hard would that be?
Thanks in advance.

[johnhafkenschiel]

I'm looking at a vintage vee with no log books. Is it possible to be able to attain new log books and how hard would that be?
Thanks in advance.

Here is one way to do it. Join the SCCA. Enter SCCA drivers school. Pay attention on the car complaince rules and make your car compliant. Once you have done that you can take the car to the track for tech inspection. Some SCCA regions have a service called Travel Tech where a tech inspector inspects your car at your home/shop at a charge (for the service and gas money). Good luck!

[FVRacer21]

Before you buy.....

The rules have changed and it may be easier or more difficult depending on the condition of the car.

Even if you had a log book, it may require additions or modifications.

Note if you are only running in Vintage events, there might be a Vintage set of SCCA rules. Someone can jump in here.

If you are planning on running regular SCCA events, you must meet all current GCR rules.

So you should download and read them.

First - check the roll bar closely for any stamped numbers - that would imply there WAS a log book.
Second - check the front and rear roll hoop rules - most vintage cars did not have a front hoop. (also rear roll bar height - most vintage cars might not make height)
Third - Fuel cell and container
Fourth - Fire system
Fifth... well seat belts are a replacement item
Sixth - side protection - you can do aluminum or Kevlar in the bodywork.

There are other small things like no plastic fuel or oil lines in the cockpit, but above are the most expensive ones.

Keep in mind when negotiating for a car and don't forget the engine and tranny refresh.

Looking at all of this, a complete current car might be a better buy unless you get a very good deal.

ChrisZ

[The Big Bad Wolf]

Here is one way to do it. Join the SCCA. Enter SCCA drivers school. Pay attention on the car complaince rules and make your car compliant. Once you have done that you can take the car to the track for tech inspection. Some SCCA regions have a service called Travel Tech where a tech inspector inspects your car at your home/shop at a charge (for the service and gas money). Good luck!

Great info. I'm already a member of the SCCA. A couple drivers schools are cheaper if you bring your own car so the smart play would be to spend the money I would have to rent on a car on a FV.
Definitely will check out the travel tech but I have no problems with traveling.

[The Big Bad Wolf]

Before you buy.....

The rules have changed and it may be easier or more difficult depending on the condition of the car.

Even if you had a log book, it may require additions or modifications.

Note if you are only running in Vintage events, there might be a Vintage set of SCCA rules. Someone can jump in here.

If you are planning on running regular SCCA events, you must meet all current GCR rules.

So you should download and read them.

First - check the roll bar closely for any stamped numbers - that would imply there WAS a log book.
Second - check the front and rear roll hoop rules - most vintage cars did not have a front hoop. (also rear roll bar height - most vintage cars might not make height)
Third - Fuel cell and container
Fourth - Fire system
Fifth... well seat belts are a replacement item
Sixth - side protection - you can do aluminum or Kevlar in the bodywork.

There are other small things like no plastic fuel or oil lines in the cockpit, but above are the most expensive ones.

Keep in mind when negotiating for a car and don't forget the engine and tranny refresh.

Looking at all of this, a complete current car might be a better buy unless you get a very good deal.

ChrisZ

My man! I appreciate all of this. Not that worried about making modifications if need be. I'm 6'3 so some modifications will have to be made just for me to fit. But before I do anything I'll check out the rules a little closer and look for the number stamp. It has a top hoop and a hoop around the knee section but I'll check to see if it's correct.

Thanks again.

[Hardingfv32]

Great info. I'm already a member of the SCCA. A couple drivers schools are cheaper if you bring your own car so the smart play would be to spend the money I would have to rent on a car on a FV.

The car must be well sorted and perfectly reliable for a SCCA drivers school. The driver DOES NOT have time to work on the car. Really should have FV experienced help, assuming you are in a FV.

And do not kid yourself.... this whole SCCA racing experience is not going to be inexpensive.

Brian

[The Big Bad Wolf]

The car must be well sorted and perfectly reliable for a SCCA drivers school. The driver DOES NOT have time to work on the car. Really should have FV experienced help, assuming you are in a FV.

And do not kid yourself.... this whole SCCA racing experience is not going to be inexpensive.

Brian

Thanks for your candor and the warm welcome. I understand it has to be in dependable order and the monetary commitment. I will absolutely make sure everything is in working and safe order.

Thanks again.

[E1pix]

Welcome from myself as well!

[johnhafkenschiel]

Before you buy.....

BEFORE YOU BUY, YOU SHOULD TEST SEAT YOURSELF IN THE CAR. If you do not fit, you need to find a car you can comfortably drive. So, you should find out the height, weight and suit jacket size of the last guy that raced it in road racing (not autocross). Or, test fit yourself in the car. When you do that, be sure that you bring a current FV racer or mechanic with you so he can show you how the roll bar rules and your size are important. Some people have bought nice cars, then made thousands of dollars of improvements and then found they do not fit in the car and it will cost tens of thousands to modify that car so they can fit.
All of this is not important if you are 5'7" and 165# like Mario Andretti.

The rules have changed and it may be easier or more difficult depending on the condition of the car.

Even if you had a log book, it may require additions or modifications.

Note if you are only running in Vintage events, there might be a Vintage set of SCCA rules. Someone can jump in here.

If you are planning on running regular SCCA events, you must meet all current GCR rules.

So you should download and read them.

First - check the roll bar closely for any stamped numbers - that would imply there WAS a log book.
Second - check the front and rear roll hoop rules - most vintage cars did not have a front hoop. (also rear roll bar height - most vintage cars might not make height)
Third - Fuel cell and container
Fourth - Fire system
Fifth... well seat belts are a replacement item
Sixth - side protection - you can do aluminum or Kevlar in the bodywork.

There are other small things like no plastic fuel or oil lines in the cockpit, but above are the most expensive ones.

Keep in mind when negotiating for a car and don't forget the engine and tranny refresh.

Looking at all of this, a complete current car might be a better buy unless you get a very good deal.

ChrisZ

BEFORE YOU BUY, YOU SHOULD TEST SEAT YOURSELF IN THE CAR. If you do not fit, you need to find a car you can comfortably drive. So, you should find out the height, weight and suit jacket size of the last guy that raced it in road racing (not autocross) and see how your size compares.
Or, test fit yourself in the car. When you do that, be sure that you bring a current FV racer or mechanic with you so he can show you how the roll bar rules and your size are important. Some people have bought nice cars, then made thousands of dollars of improvements and then found they do not fit in the car and it will cost tens of thousands to modify that car so they can fit.
All of this is not important if you are 5'7" and 165# like Mario Andretti.

[The Big Bad Wolf]

BEFORE YOU BUY, YOU SHOULD TEST SEAT YOURSELF IN THE CAR. If you do not fit, you need to find a car you can comfortably drive. So, you should find out the height, weight and suit jacket size of the last guy that raced it in road racing (not autocross) and see how your size compares.
Or, test fit yourself in the car. When you do that, be sure that you bring a current FV racer or mechanic with you so he can show you how the roll bar rules and your size are important. Some people have bought nice cars, then made thousands of dollars of improvements and then found they do not fit in the car and it will cost tens of thousands to modify that car so they can fit.
All of this is not important if you are 5'7" and 165# like Mario Andretti.

BEFORE YOU BUY, YOU SHOULD TEST SEAT YOURSELF IN THE CAR. If you do not fit, you need to find a car you can comfortably drive. So, you should find out the height, weight and suit jacket size of the last guy that raced it in road racing (not autocross) and see how your size compares.
Or, test fit yourself in the car. When you do that, be sure that you bring a current FV racer or mechanic with you so he can show you how the roll bar rules and your size are important. Some people have bought nice cars, then made thousands of dollars of improvements and then found they do not fit in the car and it will cost tens of thousands to modify that car so they can fit.
All of this is not important if you are 5'7" and 165# like Mario Andretti.



Oh...err... sorry I thought we were just copy and pasting. I have read that and appreciate the heads up. As much as some people like to believe that no one researches things, I have done a lot of reading on these forums and other wells of knowledge. I wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into. I completely understand that a lot of people just think they can just buy a car, sit in it and drive off into the sunset. But they don't realize the cars don't come with headlights...(get it... sunset... no lights.). So I do appreciate the heads up again.

[The Big Bad Wolf]

Welcome from myself as well!

Thanks my man!

[BLS]

"I'm 6'3 so some modifications will have to be made just for me to fit."

Not to put too fine a point on it since it has been pointed out, but you are on the end of the "no fit" club. At 6'4 I know something about that. Some cars are impossible to make work without essentially destroying the car. Be sure you can make what you are purchasing work...

[The Big Bad Wolf]

"I'm 6'3 so some modifications will have to be made just for me to fit."

Not to put too fine a point on it since it has been pointed out, but you are on the end of the "no fit" club. At 6'4 I know something about that. Some cars are impossible to make work without essentially destroying the car. Be sure you can make what you are purchasing work...

I absolutely understand where you're coming from with the caution. I've talked with a couple people about the modifications and with the car in question it is possible and doable on my end.

[pacratt]

I'm looking at a vintage vee with no log books. Is it possible to be able to attain new log books and how hard would that be?
Thanks in advance.

Just curious to know what type of vee it is?
Glenn

[S Lathrop]

One check that I did not see mentioned above is the fuel cell. Fuel cells time out and they are expensive to replace.

Bottom line check the manufactured date on the fuel cell and see that it is current. If not, see what a new fuel cell will cost for the car before you buy.

Also, bring the roll bars up to current standards can be quite expensive. And I see a lot of "upgraded Roll Bars " that in my opinion are less safe than the original roll bar. One thing in particular are roll bars with forward braces that are 1 inch diameter and over 30 inches long. While the braces meet the rules, the braces are too long for the diameter being used.

I have tested a few roll bar structures that I built and am here to write about it.

[The Big Bad Wolf]

One check that I did not see mentioned above is the fuel cell. Fuel cells time out and they are expensive to replace.

Bottom line check the manufactured date on the fuel cell and see that it is current. If not, see what a new fuel cell will cost for the car before you buy.

Also, bring the roll bars up to current standards can be quite expensive. And I see a lot of "upgraded Roll Bars " that in my opinion are less safe than the original roll bar. One thing in particular are roll bars with forward braces that are 1 inch diameter and over 30 inches long. While the braces meet the rules, the braces are too long for the diameter being used.

I have tested a few roll bar structures that I built and am here to write about it.

I saw the loop has to be 2 inches above along with the angle check (broom). I'm lucky enough to have a buddy who used to build monster trucks. If I didn't have faith it wasn't going to be safe I wouldn't do it all.
Thanks for the extra info.

[brian styczynski]

Yes, it should be easy to get issued a new log book. I am assuming you are trying to vintage race with VRG? Contact the organization and ask for a contact with a head of tech. Ask him what you need to do. Any history on the car would be nice, but a make model and ballpark year should be enough to get a new logbook issued. You can do the same thing with SCCA. Then comes passing tech which is what everyone has already jumped to.

Good luck

[The Big Bad Wolf]

Yes, it should be easy to get issued a new log book. I am assuming you are trying to vintage race with VRG? Contact the organization and ask for a contact with a head of tech. Ask him what you need to do. Any history on the car would be nice, but a make model and ballpark year should be enough to get a new logbook issued. You can do the same thing with SCCA. Then comes passing tech which is what everyone has already jumped to.

Good luck

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for this.

[Ed Womer]

One check that I did not see mentioned above is the fuel cell. Fuel cells time out and they are expensive to replace.

Bottom line check the manufactured date on the fuel cell and see that it is current. If not, see what a new fuel cell will cost for the car before you buy.

Also, bring the roll bars up to current standards can be quite expensive. And I see a lot of "upgraded Roll Bars " that in my opinion are less safe than the original roll bar. One thing in particular are roll bars with forward braces that are 1 inch diameter and over 30 inches long. While the braces meet the rules, the braces are too long for the diameter being used.

I have tested a few roll bar structures that I built and am here to write about it.

Are you sure about fuel cells timing out? When I built the first car I asked about that and was told unless they leak they are fine.

Ed

[DannyPip]

Are you sure about fuel cells timing out? When I built the first car I asked about that and was told unless they leak they are fine.

Ed

I was under the same impression. My cell dates back to 1992, and developed a slight leak this year. It's getting a new bladder over the winter. Being an early BRD(#005) it has a slightly odd shape.

[The Big Bad Wolf]

Decided not to pick up the car in question. Wayyyy to much work to get it safe along with the price just doesn't make it worth it.

Thanks for all the help.

[S Lathrop]

Are you sure about fuel cells timing out? When I built the first car I asked about that and was told unless they leak they are fine.

Ed

It may be the manufacturers I was using.

I have experienced the foam in the cells deteriorating and flaking. Again this may not be an issue with the fuel cells made today but it was when I was more involved.

[FVRacer21]

It may be the manufacturers I was using.

I have experienced the foam in the cells deteriorating and flaking. Again this may not be an issue with the fuel cells made today but it was when I was more involved.

Steve,

were these Donn Allen cells? I have one where the outside is good but the foam has turned to powder. He did not leave a port to get to the foam and I understand it is glued in. I contemplated having it sent out and repaired, but then I have a 30 year old cell with new foam…..

I would not be surprised that the price is high today due to the material they have to use because of all the chemicals in today’s fuel.

Some new cells have an “expiration” date on them, usually 5 years. Think it some FIA thing. Most cells, if taken care of should last at least 20 years, but your mileage may vary..

ChrisZ

[S Lathrop]

Steve,

were these Donn Allen cells? I have one where the outside is good but the foam has turned to powder. He did not leave a port to get to the foam and I understand it is glued in. I contemplated having it sent out and repaired, but then I have a 30 year old cell with new foam…..

I would not be surprised that the price is high today due to the material they have to use because of all the chemicals in today’s fuel.

Some new cells have an “expiration” date on them, usually 5 years. Think it some FIA thing. Most cells, if taken care of should last at least 20 years, but your mileage may vary..

ChrisZ

I used Don Allen for many years. I did have some that showed signs of the interior foam flaking.

Some time in the coming year, I am going to have Fuel Safe build a new tank for a Z12 that I am rebuilding. The design is such that it will fit in Zink and Citation FVs and FFs and not change the seating position. The cell is a close reproduction of the cell I used in the 84 and later Citations up to the 94 models.

[FVRacer21]

Decided not to pick up the car in question. Wayyyy to much work to get it safe along with the price just doesn't make it worth it.

Thanks for all the help.

Vintage restores are usually a labor of love. Actively raced cars don’t hold their value unless they have been recently refreshed. But you will see prices more than say 5 years ago, as the cost and quality of good parts are higher. There are still bargains out there to be had.

ChrisZ

[Ed Womer]

I think you might be right on the date thing Steve. Unfortunately adherence to FIA bs rules, is, I think the start of the end for open wheel racing and other classes looking forward. The cell I have in my first car I acquired from ATL when the FV I built for Rob Howden's formula car mag because, I lent him a brand new Fuel Safe cell so he could finish up the car. When I noticed he sold the car I asked him for my cell back but he said the car was sold. So after some time he managed to con ATL into making him one for me and it actually says on the cell custom made for the Howden group. The date is I think 2010 but it sat in the box until I put together the first car. I asked about the date on the cell but it is for manufacturing purposes.

When I was updating my very first FV from a hill climb car for road racing I bought some of the foam to stuff into the fiberglass cell and I had some left over and recently noticed that it was literally falling apart and disintegrating. I think I got it in the early eighties so the foam was old to say the least.

I really don't understand why the racing community in the US is just following in line with the FIA required stuff when those rules are fine for pro teams who just don't care what things cost since someone else is paying for it. You could kinda look at it like applying aerospace design requirements to assembling a rat rod to drive at and to car shows. Not really required or necessary.

I have no problem with doing things safe but needing the best and most expensive parts is not required for safe operation. A minimum standard a few generations back is plenty fine. In construction there is the grandfather rule that allows anything built to existing standards at the time of construction to remain until renovation. Then it must meet new standards. That is only for safety requirements not building design.

I mentioned somewhere else, it is amazing how I lived thorough 40 years of racing open wheeled cars when you look back at what we started with. If needing the latest design principles where required for everything there would be no vintage or historic things around. Great for manufactures and recycling companies but not for the consumer.

Ed

[sccadsr31]

If you find the roll bar number, the first 2 digits identify where the log book was issued, National Staff can give you contact info for that region and you may be able to track down enough info to get a log book. It is worth a try.

David

[Arbitrary]

If you're 6'3", I'd be looking for a Citation. I'm 6'1" and fit well in my Citation. I have room to spare between my knees/legs under the dash and above my helmet when doing the broomstick test. However, with you being 6'3" it still may require some modifications depending on how it is setup and how your body is built.

[The Big Bad Wolf]

If you're 6'3", I'd be looking for a Citation. I'm 6'1" and fit well in my Citation. I have room to spare between my knees/legs under the dash and above my helmet when doing the broomstick test. However, with you being 6'3" it still may require some modifications depending on how it is setup and how your body is built.

This is awesome info. I'll start looking. I might start a thread and have people list the car they drive and the maximum height with no modifications. Appreciate the reply.