Sad Daytona News

[EYERACE]

I could swear I saw a post/thread here at Apex mentioning what happened at Daytona recently. It didn't have much info......but I can't find it now.
So.......
I found this:
Lotustalk.com / The Racing Den / Tragic accident at Daytona yesterday.
link
http://www.lotustalk.com/threads/tra...reply_top_post

[TimH]

A few lessons there. As mentioned, that may spell the end of IGT.

[E1pix]

I sure hope not… sounds like some bad decisions were made.

Humans are only human, no matter what the litigators say.

Shakespeare must have been a racing fan.

[Teuobk]

Sad news indeed. Hadn't heard anything about it before this thread. Brings to mind two topics.

First, *a lot* of drivers in various series seem to completely ignore the "slow down" part about yellow flags these days. See the recent discussion about that topic here. I really wish all racing organizations would grow the balls to crack down on this. There was yet another example of this at COTA last weekend where, during the SVRA's Saturday Group 9 (i.e., winged open wheel) race, there was a full-course yellow and everybody kept driving just as fast as without the flags. (video here; note how the FCY light boards are still visible and even the announcers are confused by how nobody is slowing down)

Second, the phenomenon of cars becoming stopped on track without being seen by corner workers seems oddly common. I've personally had to call in a stranded car while driving; video here (admittedly, that was at night during a 24-hour race in an inconvenient part of the track, but still). Not sure what the solution would be on this front.

Jeff

[Steve Demeter]

I can not understand ignoring a yellow for any reason, let alone for several laps. Those drivers ought to be kicked out of all racing for life.

[EYERACE]

A buddy of mine who was working Turn 1 at the time of the accident has gotten in touch with me. I shall not post anything here without out his permission. More later maybe.

[bob darcey]

Found this:

https://www.cbssports.com/motor-spor...acing-weekend/

[Hardingfv32]

Amazing example of aviation's Swiss cheese accident evaluation:

1) Driving error causes car damage
2) Car not removed
3) Driver removes belts
4) Competitors ignore yellow flags
5) Competitors have contact while ignoring yellow flag

A lot of stuff lined up to get this fatal outcome.

Brian

[E1pix]

I’m unconvinced the FAA doesn’t know what it’s doing, regardless of your thinking nobody but you does.

I realize that’s normal to you, but everywhere else it’s just rude and obnoxious.

[Hardingfv32]

II realize that’s normal to you, but everywhere else it’s just rude and obnoxious.

This is a clear example of you thinking everything I say is rude and obnoxious. You are clearly ignorant about aviation safety reviews/investigations. This has nothing to do with the FAA per se.

Swiss cheese evaluation: You lineup, in this case five layers of Swiss cheese with their random holes. It is going to be extremely rare to have holes in each slice that lineup perfectly with the stack of fve slices. In aviation each layer is considered a safety feature or procedure. You only need one slice to be misaligned to save your day.

In this accident five things went wrong and unfortunately they all happened during the same incident. In other words a straight path though all five layers of cheese.

Now is there anything rude or obnoxious about pointing that out?

Brian

[mmi16]

I’m unconvinced the FAA doesn’t know what it’s doing, regardless of your thinking nobody but you does.

I realize that’s normal to you, but everywhere else it’s just rude and obnoxious.

Check out https://mentourpilot.com/ and some of his accident investigation/explanation videos to understand Swiss Cheese.

[Offcamber1]

Read the FAA report on JFK JR's last flight: https://heavy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/ntsbreport2.pdf

[E1pix]

This is a clear example of you thinking everything I say is rude and obnoxious. You are clearly ignorant about aviation safety reviews/investigations. This has nothing to do with the FAA per se.

Swiss cheese evaluation: You lineup, in this case five layers of Swiss cheese with their random holes. It is going to be extremely rare to have holes in each slice that lineup perfectly with the stack of fve slices. In aviation each layer is considered a safety feature or procedure. You only need one slice to be misaligned to save your day.

In this accident five things went wrong and unfortunately they all happened during the same incident. In other words a straight path though all five layers of cheese.

Now is there anything rude or obnoxious about pointing that out?

Brian

I understand and am familiar with the term, except it’s not typically used in aviation after the fact, and has been increasingly shown to have little overall value. Meaning, it’s mostly conceptual, not analytical.

So yes, you were misquoting aviation investigative methods to parallel a crash. My wife worked in aviation for over 15 years, and studied airline disaster reports non-employees never see. As did I at times in that period. So even your use of my “ignorance” is incorrect, classic Brian, and proves my initial point.

In the end, I said what I did for your long history of negativity, and comments regarding other people’s character, and responded in kind.

Sucks, Eh?

[Hardingfv32]

I understand and am familiar with the term, except it’s not typically used in aviation after the fact, and has been increasingly shown to have little overall value. Meaning, it’s mostly conceptual, not analytical.

So yes, you were misquoting aviation investigative methods to parallel a crash.

You did not answer my question: what was rude and obnoxious about my original post? How did it in anyway question the FAA? Your are not making any sense.

Swiss cheese as an aviation investigative method. I have no idea how it should be described. Regardless of what you call it or what value it might have, there is no better way to illustrate how rare and unfortunate this set of incident elements were.

Brian

[marchsv]

Could we all respect the lost life and the tragedy now being suffered by multiple families.

Sorry but I thought this needed to be said.

[E1pix]

You’re right, apologies.

[Rick Silver]

I am not familiar with this racing series. I have a few questions out of curiosity. They have a Ferrari Cup series and some Porsche based classes. Their rules say any Boxtser or Cayman is eligible along with various GT3 and GT4 Porsche cars. But I dont think these US spec cars come with roll cages. Are they really racing on proper race tracks without full cages? I see fire systems required but no requirement for fuel cells.

Just wondering as there are some very fast cars that run HPDE type events that seem unsafe at the speeds they reach. But these guys are full on racing.

[Phil Creighton]

This is a series for any GT cars usually ones that have been timed out in IMSA, SRO or Porsche Cup for later versions. We have done a couple of seasons with them with a 458 Ferrari GT3 up to a couple of years ago. Ran an Audi R8 20012 GT3 there at Road Atlanta this year. Usually they are a run group within SVRA weekends. 30-40 car grids - competition at all levels and classes. Mostly Porsches - all race prepped with cages to answer question above.

On track officiating is done by the organization that has the weekend - in this case it was the Audi Club I believe. Always nice events to run and our hearts and condolences go out to those affected by this tragedy. The gentleman that died was a super nice guy and will be missed. The young man that was involved in the accident will have a long road to recovery. Not much point in speculating about what happened.

All I can say is that this is a great bunch of competitors and we wouldnt hesitate to run with them again. Our thoughts also go out to Ken and Julie that run the series - this has hit them pretty hard, everybody are friends there .
Phil Creighton

[EYERACE]

This not from my friend who was working Turn 1.....rather.....I have a Patient who works at Daytona as Fireman/Track Safety. He spoke to me the other day about this tragic wreck. The stopped car was hit at 'Turn 1 racing speed' in the shotgun door. Because the stopped Driver had unbuckled belts and removed helmet, his head was forced into the left upper front corner of roll cage by the mechanics of the force launching him up and out of the seat at impact. Who knows?.....if I had been sitting there for 10 minutes, I might have removed my belts and helmet too

[TimH]

Who knows?.....if I had been sitting there for 10 minutes, I might have removed my belts and helmet too

Not any more...

Perhaps #1 of several lessons to be learned from the event.