Another bizarre happening and a warning

[R. Pare]

Was broiling some nachos last night when I heard an electrical BZZZZT and saw sparks shooting upwards through one of the rear stovetop burners. Looked into the oven and saw that the broiler element was actually on fire!

Shut it off and turned off the breakers for it, but the outer metal sheathing for the element was still glowing white hot, and over the course of an hour continued to burn along it's length until there was nothing left!

Who would have known that a heating element could actually burn!! Even spraying it with water did nothing to slow or stop the burning!

So, fair warning - if this happens to you, turn off the power to the oven and stand by with your extinguisher!

Oh yea - and open your windows - the stink is horrible!

[R. Pare]

Found out why it kept burning - many ovens ( and now obviously this one) only turn off one leg of the 240 when you use the switches, so the power is still going to the element (at 120V), and arching to the outer stainless cover, causing the "burning" I was seeing. To stop it, you need to flip the breakers on your panel. No way in hell would I ever design a circuit like this!

This is what the burning looks like:

https://youtu.be/lHJI47jWuJ4

[John Nesbitt]

Another reason to use a gas stove.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Another reason to use a gas stove.

Now illegal in California

[EACIII]

And another reason not to live in Calif. I only cook over fire.

Ed

[R. Pare]

Another reason to use a gas stove.

Until you have a leak and a spark......

[BeerBudgetRacing]

And another reason not to live in Calif. I only cook over fire.

Ed

We'll butcher your children on fleeting feelings but we'll protect them from fossil fuels.

[Offcamber1]

Another reason to use a gas stove.

Richard, by any chance was this a Tesla stove?

[mikey]

Friendly reminder do not attempt to put out an electrical fire with water!

[Rick Kirchner]

Nah. a Tesla stove, for and extra $6000, will grill up your **** in like, 20 seconds.

[jcolley]

First thing I learned in submarines, kill power to everything for a class C fire. Two times in the last 20 years we've had a fire at our house, same drill, get everyone out, kill the main breaker, grab a CO2 and head towards it. Both times the firefighters chastised me for going back inside and yet admitted I kept the house from burning down.

[billtebbutt]

This is a very interesting and timely thread! A friend was just telling me that they had left the cottage this fall for a couple of weeks, and hired the regular fellow to close it down for them. He showed up ten days after they left, as scheduled, only to find the oven had been left on at 350 degrees since their last meal there.

I mentioned this to my wife, who felt that ovens could safely stay on indefinitely. And then I see this thread........

bt

[R. Pare]

This happening is one of those possibilities that you would just never think about until it happens!

My suggestion is that when buying an oven, see if you can find out whether the switches shut off just one of the 2 power legs, or both - but I'd bet that info is hard to impossible to get, unfortunately. I'm actually surprised that that sort of power circuit design is actually allowed.

It does look like,once the main switches are turned off, that you could cut the heating element with a pair of snips, which would allow you to at least use the stovetop burners until you can replace the burnt element.

[DSR3]

My suggestion is that when buying an oven, see if you can find out whether the switches shut off just one of the 2 power legs, or both - but I'd bet that info is hard to impossible to get, unfortunately.

My electric range has the electrical schematic in a pouch on the back panel "for service". I just found it when replacing an oven element.

[R. Pare]

My electric range has the electrical schematic in a pouch on the back panel "for service". I just found it when replacing an oven element.

Excellent.The question then is: does it show a dual pole breaker for the 240V power, or just a single pole?

[Chris Livengood]

Electric ranges are a crime against humanity.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Electric ranges are a crime against humanity.

That's your inner caveman speaking. It's also why we have BBQs

[Rick Kirchner]

The whole anti-gas stove thing is what I call "bandwagoning" as in, it gets to a point where people just start jumping on the bandwagon, whether it makes sense or not. Usually led by people in places like NYC and DC, where they think everyone else in the country can live like them.

Gas stove problems can be fixed pretty simply, at much lower cost than everyone buying induction stoves. A gas stove can be operated at a single setpoint for each combustion device, certainly as efficiently as a power plant that has to throttle some with demand. The problem is that there's no feedback to ensure it's operating with the best gas/air mixture for a given barometric pressure and temperature.

The other item is the fear over methane leakage. it's incredibly small anyway - after all, the pressure involved is virtually nothing. But again, spending a couple more bucks on the valve and a detector/feedback mechanism would go a long way to stopping methane leaks. That should be required on furnaces and water heaters as well.

Seems like this time of year houses explode all over the northeast due to lack of safety controls on these appliances, and adding feedback and sensors to them would not only make them more efficient, but also safer.

The issues I see with the rush to all electric is the lack of proper oversight of electric utilities - make everyone all electric and now the utilities go from a virtual monopoly to an actual one, with rising prices as a result. EVERY community I've lived in has featured electricity as the absolute highest cost energy supply. If you have home solar AND a battery, then maybe things get better, but out here in CA the Utilities Commission is screwing new solar people over to protect the profit margins of the three big utilities here, which are investor owned, not true public utilities.

You also have a problem with trying to add home car chargers and then throw in an electric range, and maybe the heat pump mafia and electric water heater mafia cruise in and now you don't have an electrical panel big enough for the load.

[John Nesbitt]

Electric ranges are a crime against humanity.

Well, halfway.

Gas cooktop and electric oven - that's the way to go!

[mmi16]

The whole anti-gas stove thing is what I call "bandwagoning" as in, it gets to a point where people just start jumping on the bandwagon, whether it makes sense or not. Usually led by people in places like NYC and DC, where they think everyone else in the country can live like them.

Gas stove problems can be fixed pretty simply, at much lower cost than everyone buying induction stoves. A gas stove can be operated at a single setpoint for each combustion device, certainly as efficiently as a power plant that has to throttle some with demand. The problem is that there's no feedback to ensure it's operating with the best gas/air mixture for a given barometric pressure and temperature.

The other item is the fear over methane leakage. it's incredibly small anyway - after all, the pressure involved is virtually nothing. But again, spending a couple more bucks on the valve and a detector/feedback mechanism would go a long way to stopping methane leaks. That should be required on furnaces and water heaters as well.

Seems like this time of year houses explode all over the northeast due to lack of safety controls on these appliances, and adding feedback and sensors to them would not only make them more efficient, but also safer.

The issues I see with the rush to all electric is the lack of proper oversight of electric utilities - make everyone all electric and now the utilities go from a virtual monopoly to an actual one, with rising prices as a result. EVERY community I've lived in has featured electricity as the absolute highest cost energy supply. If you have home solar AND a battery, then maybe things get better, but out here in CA the Utilities Commission is screwing new solar people over to protect the profit margins of the three big utilities here, which are investor owned, not true public utilities.

You also have a problem with trying to add home car chargers and then throw in an electric range, and maybe the heat pump mafia and electric water heater mafia cruise in and now you don't have an electrical panel big enough for the load.

Not to put cold water on your rant - but it seems like at least monthly the National new carry a story about one or more building/residences exploding account of gas and a spark.

In my personal case, gas is not a option as only electric is available.

[mmi16]

Found out why it kept burning - many ovens ( and now obviously this one) only turn off one leg of the 240 when you use the switches, so the power is still going to the element (at 120V), and arching to the outer stainless cover, causing the "burning" I was seeing. To stop it, you need to flip the breakers on your panel. No way in hell would I ever design a circuit like this!

This is what the burning looks like:

https://youtu.be/lHJI47jWuJ4

If the circuit breakers in your electrical box didn't remove ALL current to your oven - the breakers are not installed correctly.

[Chris Livengood]

Pretty sure the mortality rate is right around 100%. I'll take the convenience of a proper range and hope I don't die. Though the odds aren't good.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The issues I see with the rush to all electric is the lack of proper oversight of electric utilities - make everyone all electric and now the utilities go from a virtual monopoly to an actual one, with rising prices as a result. EVERY community I've lived in has featured electricity as the absolute highest cost energy supply. If you have home solar AND a battery, then maybe things get better, but out here in CA the Utilities Commission is screwing new solar people over to protect the profit margins of the three big utilities here, which are investor owned, not true public utilities.

You also have a problem with trying to add home car chargers and then throw in an electric range, and maybe the heat pump mafia and electric water heater mafia cruise in and now you don't have an electrical panel big enough for the load.

A neighborhood next to mine built in the 60s all have that 'All Electric Home' medallion near their front doors.
They also all have had gas service added.

The PUC has screwed EXISTING solar owners as well. I'm a numbers guy and in 2017 my electric bill was $500/mo. The problem was our excess use in the highest tier. Bid's for solar made no sense ($45k) so I did it myself. In 2018 I spent $15k and reduced my bill to under $100 - sometimes Zero by eliminating the top tier usage.
For me it paid off in like 3 years. In 2022 my bills totaled about $1200.

I remember years ago we talked about rolling blackouts (because of heat and AC power usage). Do you laundry at night, reduce your AC usage during the evening hours "when demand is low".

Now we've reached the 'tipping point' on solar.

I received a letter from SCE that my current rate plan was being discontinued. What?
Seems now the cheapest electricity is DURING THE DAY and the most expensive is the evening.
Also means I get paid the lowest rate for the excess electricity I make during the day.
My bill is now projected to be near $200/mo.

Translation: There is enough PRIVATE solar to meet demand (during the day of course) and it's cutting into their bottom line.

The FIX? With or without solar, someone must have a 'battery pack' that charges itself during low rate hours (from the grid or solar) and discharges during high rate hours. Just think, every day this device pulls in cheap power and then dumps it back at the high rate fully discharging itself every day! And since I already have solar I have a 'production' agreement where they pay me for excess power I produce.

[Charlie Schmidt]

You'd be surprised to find out how many things are only switched one leg of 240v.

Your a/c condenser probably most common, they use a single pole contactor

water heater, probably smaller 240v compressors

A friend had a 7.5hp compressor in his shop that only had one leg of the 3 phase switched

it's all good---until it's not

[R. Pare]

If the circuit breakers in your electrical box didn't remove ALL current to your oven - the breakers are not installed correctly.

The main box circuit breakers are not the problem - the fact that the oven switch itself doesn't kill both lines was the issue. Sorry for the confusion - it looks like I didn't describe the order of things correctly.

[Rick Kirchner]

A neighborhood next to mine built in the 60s all have that 'All Electric Home' medallion near their front doors.
They also all have had gas service added.

That was the case in one of the more popular older neighborhoods in Ridgecrest. All the homes were built full electric, including air conditioners. PG&E jacked the rates up, people tried to install "dual cooling" (swamp cooler + AC) but the ductwork was too small for the swamper, so you get a wind tunnel.

I'm STILL waiting on solar (signed an agreement in April) to get in under the previous rules. The metering they are going to pretty much means it makes no sense for solar without a battery.

It seems the PUC is incompetent (in other words, owned by the industry) to figure out fixed vs variable costs for the utilities so that we can have a reasonable cost for grid connection and excess production.

I have propane now. There's two HUGE gas pipelines running less than 100 yds from my house, but nobody here is connected to it except a small group of condos where Propane would be too hard. SCE wants too much for the hook-ups (over $15K per house 30 years ago!) IMHO, propane tanks in fire country is about as stupid as you can get.

Second level of stupid is SCE replacing all the poles in the valley but not burying the lines, even though we have constant power interruption during fire season to reduce the risk from downed/touching lines.....