Soooo.....is SCCA FF dead?

[reidhazelton]

Only 8 cars registered for the Runoffs at VIR? It's a track ideal for FFs, on the East Coast where the car density is, and yet only 8 cars registered?

How times have changed. Who would have thought $80K+ FFs and $1000 entry fees were unsustainable?

[stonebridge20]

43 Vintage FF's at Watkins Glen Formula Ford Challenge Series this past weekend.

7 half hour sessions
$600 entry fee
2 fantastic BBQ's
And tongue puppets!

[Purple Frog]

The Runoffs is so expensive in terms of cash and time that I think we are seeing that only two types of entries show up... those that think they might be able to win, and those that want to check it off their bucket list.

The bucket list entries may only do one Runoffs in a lifetime.

[problemchild]

How times have changed. Who would have thought $80K+ FFs and $1000 entry fees were unsustainable?

I am not interested in getting into a political discussion, but I will suggest that the SCCA part of the equation is the main issue.

FRP has $80K F1600 cars and $1100 entry fees with 25-30 car fields.
Various vintage groups have good fields with cars worth 4X what they originally sold for.
Canadian FF/F1600 fields are reasonable with a mix of the cars in the above two groups.

In the last 5 years, I have gone from bringing 3 cars to bringing zero. It would have been one but Ayrton won the Team USA scholarship. When they changed the points scoring requirement, it muddled things that meant participation was a variable rather than a constant, and more difficult for me to sell. Customers would rather do a 3-day weekend with FRP then spend 12 days at the Runoffs for the same money (after spending money at lame SCCA events to meet eligibility requirements).

The cost of FF is a result of decisions made by the community in the 80s and 90s. Honda and kent engines are similarly priced but the cost of transmissions, gears, shocks, wheels, data systems, etc is just plain stupid.

For those more wealthy racers who are participating, with the parity created with the spec tires, and current engines, the racing has never been as competitive. The community is doing a reasonable job today, but cannot undo decisions made 30 years ago. Once the horse left the barn .........

[BeerBudgetRacing]

VIR?

People did it last year.

[Jim Nash]

The cost of FF is a result of decisions made by the community in the 80s and 90s. Honda and kent engines are similarly priced but the cost of transmissions, gears, shocks, wheels, data systems, etc is just plain stupid.

No truer words have been spoken. It could be applied to other classes as well.

Jim

[problemchild]

Having said all that we are ranting about ......... 5 very good cars and drivers. The quality is there! Good weather. I have no idea which of the 5 will occupy the different podium positions. Which is why I'm looking forward to the race ..... I will just have 100 seconds to play with my phone every lap

[E1pix]

Without seeing times yet, Kotyk looks *really* good.

Our late friend Eddie Miller would cry seeing what’s happened to “Ford” since his day, and would have to borrow my wet hankie.

[helipilot04]

Even if you wanted to for bucket list reasons, This is getting kinda crazy for club type racing with limited on track time per class.

From the Supps::

1.5.1. Test Day Entry: Test Days will be run by SCCA under the event sanction. Registration will be available within the Runoffs Event
Registration system.
? September 23: $795. The September 23 Test Day is limited to 5 groups; 40 cars/group.
? September 24: $595. The September 24 Test Day is limited to 7 groups; 45 cars/group.
? September 25: $425. The September 25 Test Day is limited to 10 groups; 50 cars/group.
1.5.2. Race Entry Fee:
? Race Entry made on or before 11:59 pm CDT, August 31, 2023: $1,125
? Race Entry made after August 31, 2023 is $1,625.
? The race entry fee does not include the SCCA-sanctioned Test Days.

[Zach Rivard]

Without seeing times yet, Kotyk looks *really* good.

Our late friend Eddie Miller would cry seeing what’s happened to “Ford” since his day, and would have to borrow my wet hankie.

If I'm not mistaken P1 by a good margin today was Nolan Allaer running a Ford. Entry numbers this year are a bit strange. There were 13 or 14 cars entered at one time but in the last month or two people have had to drop out for various reasons. As Greg said, I think the field strength this year is as good as it's been in recent years.

[billtebbutt]

Gosh, it used to be such a *thing* to get to go. I did it once, worked my tail off in NE division to get there in a 13 year old VD, and had the time of my life. As some of you know, it ended poorly there for me, but that isn't the point - it was a real thrill to make it and grid up at Mid Ohio that year, something I will never forget. Like gridding up for practice behind Bruce May and having a good chat beforehand. Sounds like this is all...gone

bt

[mboian90]

I have various thoughts on all aspects but in general I subscribe (maybe foolishly) to "if you race it, they will come". So I am here. Its not often I get to spend multiple days talking shop with people about things I enjoy in life.

From what I have seen, I think the race will be great. I likely wont see much of it because I will be on the opposite side of the track from everyone else. Someone will have to fill me in on the highlights later

..... I will just have 100 seconds to play with my phone every lap

You can wave to me in your free time, about 50 seconds in I will be the white car running by itself!

Matt Boian

[E1pix]

We’ll wave, too Matt, from camp on the inside of 17.

Have a blast no matter what.

[reidhazelton]

Plot twist - so FA isn't even a Runoffs class anymore? When did that happen? I don't see FA listed on the schedule.

[E1pix]

There were only three entered, and they all agreed to withdraw.

[stonebridge20]

There were only three entered, and they all agreed to withdraw.

It doesn't seem all that long ago that I had to race my ass off for an invite to the Runoffs in FA.

I'm feeling blessed more and more that I had a chance to race seriously in the Era that I did.

[E1pix]

I feel this way on a lot of fronts, Mike: racing, music, starting businesses, pretty much everything.

We finally bought our first car after three karting binges 1977-78, ‘81-‘83, 2001-02 and 60 after my first road race at 35 months old. We’d spend a big chunk of retirement to do it, but won’t touch it without a good car and program.

To be competitive here means about $3,500 just in entry fees. Weighing retirement funds against more years with no home and in a van is tough, so we’re mostly here deciding how much we’re willing to risk to do it.

The Better Half is all in as she’s been since high school, thankfully, but there’s a lot more to this equation — though just being here again brings it all back, and nothing in this world beats it.

[problemchild]

GT1 packed it in and won't race.

It seems that all the classes that have viable options of Pro or Vintage events are not attracting entries with SCCA. GT1 racers would rather finish 35th in a TA2 TransAm race than contest a podium at the SCCA Runoffs. This is more than a trend!

[RussMcB]

GT1 packed it in and won't race.

Interestingly, there are four GT1 cars on track now in Qual 2.

[problemchild]

Interestingly, there are four GT1 cars on track now in Qual 2.

Yes, in some weird arrangement, they are qualifying then not racing,
FV and T3 races are moved up 1 hour on Saturday.

[John Nesbitt]

Yes, in some weird arrangement, they are qualifying then not racing,
FV and T3 races are moved up 1 hour on Saturday.

That is totally bizarre. To go to the effort and expense of going to the event and qualifying, then not race.

Any word on the reason why?

[tige00]

So does gt1 become a regional class only now

[John Nesbitt]

So does gt1 become a regional class only now

SCCA (Our motto: "Let's complicate things!") has different criteria for Runoffs classes and Majors classes (what we used to call National classes).

The GT1 thing would fall under GCR 3.7.4.C, which defines class eligibility for a Runoffs race.

[problemchild]

Schedule Adjustment – FV & T3 Races Affected!
Our already-small GT-1 field has suffered some attrition. Rather than be combined with another class and potentially affect their race, the remaining drivers have opted not to race. GT-1 will have qualifying sessions both Wednesday and Thursday, but their race time, scheduled for Saturday at 3 p.m., is canceled and the FV and Touring 3 races have been moved up one hour, respectively.
We’re bummed about this, and tried to find the best solution for everyone.

Email received 3.03 pm Wednesday.

[Mschumi101]

Major bummer that so many pulled out from racing this year, but like some have said, its still an extremely competitive field! I heard Porter ran out of budget after FRP, Ayrton going to England, and I really wish I could have raced this year, but I have to go work this weekend at Rennsport. So that would be 3 more competitive cars. But VIR was an expensive event last year. Between entry, 2 test days, fuel, tires, transport (from WI), and lodging it was an $8-10k week, running by myself with friends volunteering to help. Its hard to find the time, and budget to do that every year for most working class folk. I love VIR, it was such an epic track to drive, but it is a very remote facility, not much lodging around, so I'm sure that turns a lot of the fringe racers away.

I'll definitely be trying hard to be back next year at the home track at Road America! Hopefully another big (north) central US track brings back some healthier numbers.

But as an aside, whats the reason for so many of the FRP cars not coming out? There's 12-15 Masters drivers that made the trek to every round this year, whats one more?

[E1pix]

I wondered why Vee was bumped up an hour...

I went by Lewis’ car today at session’s end and it was pouring out oil smoke, I presumed he blew the motor.

So that’d make three cars on grid, unless another had fatal issues there’d be two. Sad.

Equally sad maybe was seeing the ex-Jim Downing P1 Mazda’s absolute demise today. I didn’t see the start of it but a friend we were with in the Oak Tree exit bleachers did, and it seemed to blow over atop the rise leading up to Oak Tree like Donohue and Hulme did at Road Atlanta in ‘72, and the Mercedes’ at Le Mans much later.

I surmise it did a full, backwards 360 and dug in at the back so hard it flipped endlessly and came apart like any really big hit that live in online infamy — like Katharine Legge’s at Road America. The driver seemed unconscious *forever*, and the untimely marshaling response and lack of a red flag was downright frightening.

We all hope he’s okay, though I struggle to imagine how the car will ever turn a wheel again.

[Rick Kirchner]

I was running at a regional at Barber in 2018 where Downing burned another one completely to the ground.

[E1pix]

Maybe the crashed car today wasn’t the car I thought it was then...

I presumed this car was the red car Jim ran up to maybe the mid-20 teens...?

I may inquire tomorrow and amend/confirm my post.

Thanks for the likely clarification, I try to be accurate on these things.

[Steve Bamford]

Only 8 cars registered for the Runoffs at VIR? It's a track ideal for FFs, on the East Coast where the car density is, and yet only 8 cars registered?

How times have changed. Who would have thought $80K+ FFs and $1000 entry fees were unsustainable?

I had a couple opportunities during my past days of racing to compete at the Runoffs however the amount of time for the event was the biggest issue I faced. Racing to qualify for the Runoffs was minimum 3-4 days multiple times per year away from family. The length of time for the event (7-10 days plus) was too long for me to justify for one race.

I was fortunate to have FRP which provided large fields and tough competition, I am guessing if it wasn't for FRP then perhaps I would have tried the Runoffs at least once.

It's a culmination of reason on how it ended up with low numbers. Sounds like quality entrants but would be nice to see large fields...I guess that ship has sailed for Runoffs at least at this point in time.

VIR is a great track to drive a FF

[GT1Vette]

Interestingly, there are four GT1 cars on track now in Qual 2.

Not there, but actually there were only TWO cars on track for Q2. Word (from those who are there) is in Q1 Grant wrecked and Romito blew an engine. With reports that Lewis blew an engine in Q2 that leaves only Pintaric running.

TransAm is racing at VIR next weekend, so I'm thinking few of those teams were willing to risk running this week. Not that there are a ton of GT1 cars running TA anyway, but Pintaric is the only TA regular that was signed up. Boes and Bender are the only two TA2 regulars running in GT2 this week (and neither is a front-runner in the Pro series).

No one asked me, but if they had I would have "suggested" that running back-to-back years at any site was bad for Runoffs participation in general and the conflict with TA and Club Racing would kill participation in GT1 and GT2 specifically. Good thing I don't care about this stuff as much as I used to...

[E1pix]

Butch, I’d guess close to half the drivers I’ve talked with have adopted a “We’re going every other year” stance.

So it ain’t workin’.

[Raceworks]

Runoffs Entries stopped being an accurate yardstick for the health of SCCA classes about the time mullets went out of style.

I stopped going because I couldn't get any customers to bite on spending $10,000 for one race and maybe an hour and a half of track time. The last 18 or so years most of that track time is in mixed class groups, which for FF means running with the F5 bozos who, with one or two exceptions, can't drive and have practically zero situational awareness.

For the same money I can offer them 3 hours of single-class track time with some of the best drivers in North America. Plus, the bulk of my clientele have full-time jobs or school so taking nearly two weeks off for testing and and one race isn't an option for them.

I diligently filled out those feedback surveys pointing out the problems with the Runoffs format and how to change but either the powers that be don't pay attention to the feedback or people like my customers are a minority

Even if I run by myself, on old tires and camp out at the track the Runoffs costs me over a week of time and at least $3,000 by the time I pay for entry fees, parking fees, camping fees, and fuel getting there. For the same money I can get twice the track time, none of which is spent on track with poorly driven cars with a vastly different performance envelope than mine, in less than half the time away from home.

[Roland V. Johnson]

As much as I love Road America, I would hardly call it's location Centeral. Take a look at a map! It is at least 2,150 miles from my shop and I am still in the U S A. (barely) It should be on every racers bucket list! The FF 50th was a hoot. It is very hard now to find people who can afford the time or money to take back there. You are correct though, VIR is even more distant and remote.

Major bummer that so many pulled out from racing this year, but like some have said, its still an extremely competitive field! I heard Porter ran out of budget after FRP, Ayrton going to England, and I really wish I could have raced this year, but I have to go work this weekend at Rennsport. So that would be 3 more competitive cars. But VIR was an expensive event last year. Between entry, 2 test days, fuel, tires, transport (from WI), and lodging it was an $8-10k week, running by myself with friends volunteering to help. Its hard to find the time, and budget to do that every year for most working class folk. I love VIR, it was such an epic track to drive, but it is a very remote facility, not much lodging around, so I'm sure that turns a lot of the fringe racers away.

I'll definitely be trying hard to be back next year at the home track at Road America! Hopefully another big (north) central US track brings back some healthier numbers.

But as an aside, whats the reason for so many of the FRP cars not coming out? There's 12-15 Masters drivers that made the trek to every round this year, whats one more?

[John Nesbitt]

As much as I love Road America, I would hardly call it's location Centeral. Take a look at a map! It is at least 2,150 miles from my shop and I am still in the U S A. (barely) It should be on every racers bucket list! The FF 50th was a hoot. It is very hard now to find people who can afford the time or money to take back there. You are correct though, VIR is even more distant and remote.

Several years ago, Butch Kummer (GT1Vette) posted a map showing the geographic center of SCCA membership. IIRC, MidOhio was the track closest to that center.

[andyllc]

We go in circles with this every offseason.
While all have good points, there are also valid counterpoints to all of this.
While FRP had a nice year for FF and FF is down at many SCCA events, including the Runoffs, FC is doing relatively decent at the Runoffs yet had a pretty horrible year in FRP.

I think there are many people that are willing to take the time off of work/school provided the value was there which it isn't. I still think having one qualifying session, then two or three heat races to set the grid for the final would give a weeks worth of racing and boost entries.

There are many people that have just moved on. Life, business, and money. It costs me a hell of a lot more to just live today than it did a few years ago.

People still spend large money to race in SCCA. Just maybe not in the class we are talking about. There are plenty with the means, plenty that no longer have the means. Plenty that choose open wheel and plenty that don't.

My point is that it isn't a simple yes/no type of situation and is a complex problem to solve, if it can get solved.

[billtebbutt]

[QUOTE=Raceworks;657159]Runoffs Entries stopped being an accurate yardstick for the health of SCCA classes about the time mullets went out of style.

Wait - mullets went out of style????????????????????????

bt

[E1pix]

With that kind of ridiculous, pointless humor, you really should be here in our camp.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Several years ago, Butch Kummer (GT1Vette) posted a map showing the geographic center of SCCA membership. IIRC, MidOhio was the track closest to that center.

I assume that was weighted by number of active racers?

Yeah, there is a big 'empty' spot west of Denver which causes the shift east.

[John Nesbitt]

I assume that was weighted by number of active racers?

Yeah, there is a big 'empty' spot west of Denver which causes the shift east.

I do not recall. I imagine that active racers are distributed roughly in proportion to SCCA membership at large. So, even SCCA membership would be a better indicator of center-ness than US population at large.

Butch has posted in this thread. Maybe he could comment.

[Rick Kirchner]

It's probably more related to distance from tracks as much as anything else. It's hard to generate interest in a spot where you have to travel a long way to participate. About the only parallel is skiing, but you can go for a week, not three days....and skiing is dying as well.

West of Austin you have what - one around Denver, one around Colorado Springs, one near Pueblo, and one in Southern New Mexico (Deming, don't even know if it's still active).

West of there you have one track outside of Tucson (way outside) and two in the Phoenix area (not counting the one that can barely run). There's one in Vegas and one in Toole Utah, and then there's nothing north of there until Canada. Again, not counting Reno/Fernley). There's also Chuckwalla, way out in the middle of nowhere an hour east of Palm Springs. The majority of those tracks are unrunnable from May through September.

You have six tracks in the southern/western 2/3 of California, and then nothing until you get to Portland, then what - two in Washington state and one in the Vancouver area?

From Californias population centers Portland, Phoenix, Tooele, etc are looooong tows, and all require mountain towing.

So that's 18 tracks, but spread out over more than half the geographic area of the contiguous US. I'm guessing there's at least 30 tracks east of a line through Austin.