Soooo.....is SCCA FF dead?

[romoman]

There are only so many tracks. With the us swelling of ChumpCar, NASA, marque clubs and all the various 'driving academies' plus track days. Who needs SCCA racing to get on track? With that many organizations seeking 'prime' dates, the bidding for those dates just goes up and up.

Success will kill participation that are financially challenged - with the Graying of SCCA, financial challenges become what is known as a fixed Retirement Income.

I have the questions, I don't have the answers.

Check out Gridlife, drifters, and Lemons. The folks who are financially challenged are still out there, just in different spots. And certainly, the number of options to get on track is huge today compared to what it used to be.

[lc3]

Well I thought (probably against my better judgement) I would throw my 2 cents into the fray, being the aforementioned “Uncle”.

First, thanks for all the compliments on the car. Obviously it is very well developed, Jim, Constantine and the entire Polestar team do awesome work. But to keep up with the current cars and their development, it needs to be developed, it is a 23 year old car after all. The aero work on a certain chrome piper or the citation were tough to keep up with, “back in the day”. Heck even the Mygale driven by the guy in P2 this year has different bodywork than the car Nolan ran last year. I also believe the engine in that car doesn’t belong to the “team”.
I would hope Nolan’s commitment to being a better driver shows vs. last year. He has been very focused and committed to improving his craft.

As for costs, I know we have spent a bunch over the last 15 years developing the car. I’ll go on record however, no where close to the number mentioned, but the estimates earlier are representative for sure on components we have upgraded. Biggest miss is that we bought the “used car” with engine, for only $25k.

However, now that a perceived value has been established, all offers over $400,000 will be seriously considered and as a reminder that is a 20% discount. After all, something is only truly worth what others think. LOL.

Car development is a huge part of the fun of the sport, at least I know I enjoy it and that is the point of a hobby, last time I checked. I doubt few people running upfront haven’t done similar developments over the course of more than a decade, in most classes of SCCA amateur racing.

Some years you can get away with small changes, others years require more to keep up. I know the engine builder is the same for the P1 and P2 car this year, so should be similar representation of his craft with just different building blocks.

3 chassis, 2 engine brands, 2 engine builders, they each had spots where they were better than the other, they put on one hell of a show. Maybe racing like that will bring a few more people into the class. Check out the trap speeds and segment times online. No single car dominates.


If you want to have all the cars the same, run a spec class. But, as someone mentioned earlier, even those classes benefit from “the dreaded development”.

Being from Detroit and a huge Ford fan for years, it was nice to help put the “Ford” back in Formula Ford.

Let me preface my last comment, in that I do believe the addition of the Fit engine has been very beneficial to the class, overall.


But let us not forget all the uproar 15 years ago about adding the Fit into the class. I guess those concerns were not warranted? In the end it only took more than a decade and multiple different teams efforts to finally prove SCCA correct. As they continually promised throughout the process, there was “no need to worry about the value of your Ford motor and car, the Honda will always be at a disadvantage”.

[ken bouq]

SCCA Formula F is not dead, it might be struggling this year for participation numbers but SCCA sanctioned FRP F1600 is not struggling for numbers at all !

* 2023 saw the largest entry for an FRP F1600 race, ever.
* New cars are being bought and garage queens are coming out to race again. A few new Rays have been purchased, Mike Scanlan continues to sell new Spectrum's, and a few more Pipers that weren't previously in FRP are showing up next year.
* A young lad from Australia came over and raced with us a little this year and they plan on sending a few more next season. We haven't seen them send drivers over for F1600 in a decade.
* The Pro teams don't dominate the fields anymore, there are lots of Grassroots F1600 guys that are competing for the win and make up a majority of the fields. The 2023 F1600 Champion was a father/son team with an old Dodge truck, a tag-along trailer, and a tight budget.
* Again, new fast kids are coming straight out of karting and will race with us next season, the tradition continues.

I feel we could see 30+ car fields again in FRP F1600 in 2024 !
Racers will come out and run if there are big fields, great tracks, and stiff competition. FRP has that covered.

Formula F is far from dead !

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Check out Gridlife, drifters, and Lemons. The folks who are financially challenged are still out there, just in different spots. And certainly, the number of options to get on track is huge today compared to what it used to be.

True, but at the expense (competition for track days) of organized racing. My experience going to some track-day events is that they advertise as 'non-competitive' yet there are some groups of 'drivers' that are racing unofficially.
Some TDOs offer transponder rentals as well but contradictorily indicate that your own insurance covers your car.

The TDOs insurance is basically for 'not racing' street cars - that is why most TDOs do not allow open wheel cars.

There is a lot of safety missed with this type of track time. In some cases it street racing without the cops.

[Chris Livengood]

Being from Detroit and a huge Ford fan for years, it was nice to help put the “Ford” back in Formula Ford.

Let me preface my last comment, in that I do believe the addition of the Fit engine has been very beneficial to the class, overall.

You can't retroactively preface something.

TAKE THAT!

Also, great race and congrats!

[kea]

I watched the race broadcast and what I really noticed was the race craft Nolan has acquired. Spending that time in the UK, running strange cars and tires, at circuits he had never seen, (to me) paid dividends when driving a car and at a track that was more familiar to him.
Well done.
And, Thank you "Uncle" for letting him borrow your car.

[Peter Olivola]

True, but at the expense (competition for track days) of organized racing. My experience going to some track-day events is that they advertise as 'non-competitive' yet there are some groups of 'drivers' that are racing unofficially.
Some TDOs offer transponder rentals as well but contradictorily indicate that your own insurance covers your car.

The TDOs insurance is basically for 'not racing' street cars - that is why most TDOs do not allow open wheel cars.

There is a lot of safety missed with this type of track time. In some cases it street racing without the cops.

I think you're missing the point about date competition. Many, if not most, facilities running their own track days will tell you they make more money on their own programs than renting to any outside organization. Your safety concerns only apply to you. As a 57 year SCCA member I probably agree with most of them, but those participating in track day events don't agree with us. Marching out the differences isn't going change anything.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I think you're missing the point about date competition. Many, if not most, facilities running their own track days will tell you they make more money on their own programs than renting to any outside organization. Your safety concerns only apply to you. As a 57 year SCCA member I probably agree with most of them, but those participating in track day events don't agree with us. Marching out the differences isn't going change anything.

I'll disagree with your first point. ButtonWillow ran a Saturday HPDE 2 to 3 times a year for the last 25 years. Last December was the last one because with demand for the track and what the TDOs are willing to pay they could no longer justify running their own events - and this knowing the second track was coming online within a year. Every weekend in 2023 was booked and people were on a wait list. Both tracks are expected to be fully booked net year. I believe the only 'event' the track runs is the test days.

As an example of the demand, CalClub released their schedule for 2024 last month - about the earliest I've ever seen.

I agree. Safety concerns are my own. But I hate others not knowing the risk they are taking when others are racing on track (when they are not supposed to) and they are out there challenging themselves on the track.

[TimH]

However, now that a perceived value has been established, all offers over $400,000 will be seriously considered and as a reminder that is a 20% discount. After all, something is only truly worth what others think.

That $ would go a LONG way toward developing a Piper or something else new.

[mboian90]

Turns out I wasnt too far off with 50 seconds back! I havent made it through the broadcast yet, it was too agonizing watching myself disappear out of frame in the opening laps

I will only share one story of a fun week at the track. I was paddocked along pit lane and tried to make a habit of giving a post race wave to drivers as they came in off the cool down lap. Following the amazing F600 race I was sitting on the pit wall and looked down and saw Nolan, fire suit half on, doing the same as Calvin and Jason rolled in. Great showing of sportsmanship 30 minutes prior to being strapped in the car for his own race.

Those worried about the health of the class have a year to get the car ready for RA in 2024. Im looking forward to having more cars in the "midfield" to race against!

Matt Boian

[E1pix]

You looked down on power, but otherwise very solid to us.

[mboian90]

You looked down on power, but otherwise very solid to us.

Ha well the week was full of violent swings between "I need to drive better" and "the engine is coming out as soon as I get home"

[E1pix]

So I nailed a week’s worth of race reports in just eleven words?

That’s for me, A. New. Track. Record. ;-)

[Messenger Racing]

My take is FF is all good - the numbers were down by four that I know of - one with a last minute invite to Spain karting, one in UK racing, one developing a new car and not happy with results, and one (me) still recovering and rebuilding from the sprints. Many other classes were down for many of the reasons already spoken in this thread but our class is still the place to be.

I love that:
Nolan/LC3/et al showed up with an impressive drive and bullet - no surprise at his speed
Jonathan was emotional about not winning - that's a competitor for you
William drove way beyond his years and added a new face to the mix
Old cars and new cars of various makes were competitive
Parity between a good FF and a good Honda are once again proven
The battle between the top three was intense - some of the best racing I saw in all of the Runoffs
We need more Matts! - the big dogs are what motivate the little dogs

My thoughts - the drivers at the front are not in the business of "tricking" or rarely even surprising the other front runners - we see this a lot at the front of the FRP field. The top drivers all know the "tricks" and the good ones have already considered the options. The key is to qualify well, have excellent pace in the race, don't run over anyone, don't get run over and be in a position to win the race at the flag. Rarely does a Hail Mary move work in FF yet we seem to glorify those moves and forget the good, clean and FAST drives. Nolan had a good, clean and very fast drive!

[alangbaker]

My take is FF is all good - the numbers were down by four that I know of - one with a last minute invite to Spain karting, one in UK racing, one developing a new car and not happy with results, and one (me) still recovering and rebuilding from the sprints. Many other classes were down for many of the reasons already spoken in this thread but our class is still the place to be.

I love that:
Nolan/LC3/et al showed up with an impressive drive and bullet - no surprise at his speed
Jonathan was emotional about not winning - that's a competitor for you
William drove way beyond his years and added a new face to the mix
Old cars and new cars of various makes were competitive
Parity between a good FF and a good Honda are once again proven
The battle between the top three was intense - some of the best racing I saw in all of the Runoffs
We need more Matts! - the big dogs are what motivate the little dogs

My thoughts - the drivers at the front are not in the business of "tricking" or rarely even surprising the other front runners - we see this a lot at the front of the FRP field. The top drivers all know the "tricks" and the good ones have already considered the options. The key is to qualify well, have excellent pace in the race, don't run over anyone, don't get run over and be in a position to win the race at the flag. Rarely does a Hail Mary move work in FF yet we seem to glorify those moves and forget the good, clean and FAST drives. Nolan had a good, clean and very fast drive!

Agree with all of that.

One of the things that struck me was that while Nolan obviously had a supremely well-developed package, the driver was every bit as important. In particular, he seemed to be able to brake deeper than anyone else—never locked a corner!

[TimH]

One of the things that struck me was that while Nolan obviously had a supremely well-developed package, the driver was every bit as important. In particular, he seemed to be able to brake deeper than anyone else—never locked a corner!

Overshot a bit more than once, but still didn't lock up. Superb control.

[DaveW]

Agree with all of that.

One of the things that struck me was that while Nolan obviously had a supremely well-developed package, the driver was every bit as important. In particular, he seemed to be able to brake deeper than anyone else—never locked a corner!

Overshot a bit more than once, but still didn't lock up. Superb control.

May be the result of using brake pads with better modulation/release characteristics than the other cars around him. I rarely lock up with my Carbotech XP20 pads. That was not the case with some other manufacturers' pads.

[TimH]

May be the result of using brake pads with better modulation/release characteristics than the other cars around him. I rarely lock up with my Carbotech XP20 pads. That was not the case with some other manufacturers' pads.

Noted. Either driver or setup skill. Or both. Still superb control.

[Purple Frog]

Fast kids romp on the brakes super hard upon first application and then ease up as the car slows. Us old folks used to street driving tend to slowly ease on the brakes getting progressively harder.

[stonebridge20]

Us old folks used to street driving tend to slowly ease on the brakes getting progressively harder.

And with some race tires, this is the preferred method of braking.

[DaveW]

Fast kids romp on the brakes super hard upon first application and then ease up as the car slows. Us old folks used to street driving tend to slowly ease on the brakes getting progressively harder.

Hard initial braking after high-speed sectors works best in cars with downforce. In street car based racecars or non-aero racecars (FF, etc.) this may not apply due to the effects of weight transfer, tire and brake pad characteristics, etc.

What does apply in any case is whether one has the ability to modulate the braking force as needed to optimize deceleration w/o lock-up.

[Fletcher Wulff]

Check out Gridlife, drifters, and Lemons. The folks who are financially challenged are still out there, just in different spots. And certainly, the number of options to get on track is huge today compared to what it used to be.

I'll add my opinion as someone who probably fits in the 'financially challenged' category .
The number of options for track time is significant. The people that I know have mostly opted for Gridlife, Luckydog, NASA,WRL ... over SCCA. Or if they aren't in the financially challenged category, pro racing of some variety.

For me, the cost to compete in formula cars didn't make sense for what I wanted - competition, non-spec racing, frequency of events. So I went dirt late model racing. I can race as much as I could possibly want, the competition level is high, and the cars are not spec, combine that with the fact there is a return via purse money and that I'm a bit of a short track racer at heart and the dirt late model made sense for me.

[E1pix]

Fletcher, I’d love to see your schedule of your next few races.

We’re on Blue Ridge now, and would love to surprise your parents at a race.

PM sent.