Which car to buy?

[Allemay]

Hi Guys/Gals,

I'm new to this site and the whole sports racer thing. I've been trying to read everything I can find but still have some questions. I rand dirt modifieds for years and then a 1996 Firebird in the Chump Car series for a few more years.

I want to get something like the West WR1000 or Stohr WF1. I'm sure there are other similar cars that I'm not familiar with but that's generally what I'm trying to find. I definitely want the motorcycle powerplant. In particular I want something that can be refreshed for $6k and not the $15k-$20k it seem like the Radical guys all spend.

I'm concerned about parts availability and cost for some of these cars. I know a lot of the manufacturers are no longer in business so that concerns me. Are there companies out there that cater to these cars? I wouldn't have a clue where to order suspension components for any of these cars or how to work on one, although I'm very handy and have swapped dozens of motors and transmissions. Are there manuals for these cars that can help with setups?

Also, I'm in MN and Brainerd International Raceway and Road America are my two closest tracks. It looks like SCCA has events at both these tracks but I can't tell from the schedules if a class where this type of car would be allowed is included in the weekend.

I'd like to keep the cost of the car around $30k. It doesn't need to be top of the line, just want to get on track again.

I'm getting frustrated and hope some of you can help me out.

Thanks,
Brad

[johnhafkenschiel]

Hi Guys/Gals,

I'm new to this site and the whole sports racer thing. I've been trying to read everything I can find but still have some questions. I rand dirt modifieds for years and then a 1996 Firebird in the Chump Car series for a few more years.

I want to get something like the West WR1000 or Stohr WF1. I'm sure there are other similar cars that I'm not familiar with but that's generally what I'm trying to find. I definitely want the motorcycle powerplant. In particular I want something that can be refreshed for $6k and not the $15k-$20k it seem like the Radical guys all spend.

I'm concerned about parts availability and cost for some of these cars. I know a lot of the manufacturers are no longer in business so that concerns me. Are there companies out there that cater to these cars? I wouldn't have a clue where to order suspension components for any of these cars or how to work on one, although I'm very handy and have swapped dozens of motors and transmissions. Are there manuals for these cars that can help with setups?

Also, I'm in MN and Brainerd International Raceway and Road America are my two closest tracks. It looks like SCCA has events at both these tracks but I can't tell from the schedules if a class where this type of car would be allowed is included in the weekend.

I'd like to keep the cost of the car around $30k. It doesn't need to be top of the line, just want to get on track again.

I'm getting frustrated and hope some of you can help me out.

Thanks,
Brad

Brad: Since you are concerned about parts and availability, you should consider a Sports 2000 (with the Pinto, not the Zetek engine) or Formula Ford (with the Ford 1600). Both have wide parts availability. The other stuff you are considering are cars with really low production numbers which means you will have to be making parts from scratch. Think a Crossle 32F (FF) or Tiga SC84 or Lola T590 (for sports 2).

[CheckeredFlag]

I'm sure there are some used Formula Enterprise (FE) cars out there well under that cost cap you have. FE has a future with its FE2 upgrade kit and backing of the SCCA Enterprises organization.

[E1pix]

Are you wanting to race SCCA Majors/Regionals, or vintage?

Here’s a recent ad that seems about an average price for a Stohr... and it’s only a roller. I’ve been trying to find a great Stohr for a friend for maybe two years so have seen prices:
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...hr-P1-(roller)

On a budget, if wanting to run P1 or P2, I suspect P2 may be cheaper to run. P1 is probably more car to handle, but either is not easy to be competitive in, and are *very* physical.

I suspect your Modified experience is probably better training than we sporty guys might realize, but to be competitive more quickly it’s always best to work up from something slower than the fastest cars, which P1 and P2 generally are. The fun factor goes way up when you’re atop the car, regardless of the type.

Welcome to the forum!

[TimH]

I'm concerned about parts availability and cost for some of these cars....I'd like to keep the cost of the car around $30k.

Not gonna happen. As suggested, S2000, SRF, or an open wheel car. Otherwise you're looking at a lot more money or an orphan manufacturer.

For looks alone I do love the Diasio...

[Allemay]

For reference guys, here's what I was hoping to get into. A Stohr does seem to be out of my price range. This car I could afford but may be problematic being that it's an "orphan".

It sounded like from what I read that this is very similar to the Stohr?

Imsa Lite for Sale in MIAMI Gardens , FL | RacingJunk

[Allemay]

Are you wanting to race SCCA Majors/Regionals, or vintage?

Here’s a recent ad that seems about an average price for a Stohr... and it’s only a roller. I’ve been trying to find a great Stohr for a friend for maybe two years so have seen prices:
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...hr-P1-(roller)

On a budget, if wanting to run P1 or P2, I suspect P2 may be cheaper to run. P1 is probably more car to handle, but either is not easy to be competitive in, and are *very* physical.

I suspect your Modified experience is probably better training than we sporty guys might realize, but to be competitive more quickly it’s always best to work up from something slower than the fastest cars, which P1 and P2 generally are. The fun factor goes way up when you’re atop the car, regardless of the type.

Welcome to the forum!

Right now I just want to get back on the track and run with some other similar cars. I'll probably only run Brainerd in MN and Road America in Wisconsin. I still have young kids so if I make it three times a year I'll be happy.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[jrh3]

Suggest you go to the tracks and see what’s running. How big are the fields, are they having fun or spread out follow the leader. How many finish? How many motorcycle engines does it take per season?
A good old iron block Ford is about as cheap to rebuild as anything you’ll find and a club FC is fun drive.

you might check Great lakes championship.com. and talk with KEA

[Dennis McCarthy]

Given your budgetary wishes, put aside the cool look factor. The reality of what you want is to race a safe, full bodied car that doesn't require expensive mods every other outing. Add in a convenient parts supply, available nationwide technical support when needed, and some real competitive racing for the buck. If you not going open wheel racing, then I'd suggest you look at Spec Racer Fords. Been there, done that and they are a really good bang for the buck in SCCA racing...

[924RACR]

Agreed, if you're concerned about parts availability etc... yeah, these may not be for you. Though the Wests and Stohrs are better than all others for that, excepting the Radicals. Stohr is still around...
https://stohr.com/

$10-15k for motors, those are pro built. I've refreshed my own GSXRs for around $2-3k in parts, which is still around what motors complete cost last I looked (noting that I'm still on the old '08 spec).

But if you're looking to just replace, not upgrade/design/develop parts as you go... yeah, a SRF or FE2 might be more your pace... or at least the next transition while you get used to this world... I moved up from door slammers (ITB), and the climb was steep and challenging. But that's what I was looking for.

Plenty of P1's and P2's run at RA... we'll be back out there again next year, ourselves... just look for SCCA weekends! Though seems like the season's pretty well over at the moment.

P2 has GOT to be cheaper to run than P1... I keep telling my wife that... slower, safer, and cheaper!

[lowside67]

For reference guys, here's what I was hoping to get into. A Stohr does seem to be out of my price range. This car I could afford but may be problematic being that it's an "orphan".

It sounded like from what I read that this is very similar to the Stohr?

Imsa Lite for Sale in MIAMI Gardens , FL | RacingJunk

To be clear, that might as well be a Stohr. That's a gen 1 car, the car that Stohr built before the WF1, which the "West" version of is identical to a Stohr. The difference in performance between a Gen 1 and WF1 with identical engine is significant - several seconds per lap. There are some "tweaks" that can be used to narrow that difference, but fundamentally if the goal is to race, you are at a significant disadvantage.

That WF1 roller that you linked is my buddy's, so I am clearly biased, but I think spending mid-upper 30s for that car plus putting an Ebay engine into it, is MUCH more performance per dollar than a slightly cheaper but significantly inferior earlier generation car.

I have a WF1 that runs a BMW S1000RR engine - it's done 4 seasons now, straight from eBay. We've never opened it or touched it internally, it just starts, runs at 14000rpm, and then shuts off and repeats. MC gearboxes are great, and experiencing 2.75G in cornering in a car is an experience worth having.

-Mark

[Jim Nash]

I live in Bloomington MN and race BIR 3 times a year in an SRF. Fields are not particularly large for P1 and P2 cars. I'd say there are 3 regulars that run Radicals in the group with all the open wheeled classes. I'd recommend SRF because of their popularity and parts availability. We normally get 12 to 20 cars and our own race group. With the new Sadev 6 speed sequential transmission you get no lift upshifts and auto-blip down shifts. The problem is that they might not have the same cool factor of P1/P2 and I doubt you could get one with a Sadev for $30K. It would be more like $38K to $42K. They do hold their value, as racecars go, pretty well.

Jim

[Lotus7]

There's absolutely nothing "budget" about P1, and maybe even P2 unless running at the back is ok.
Since you're new to sports racers, what about a starter season in a rental SRF3? (or pro support in your own SRF3).
TRB Autosport is up near you just across the river in western Wisconsin, and could help you out.

[david oleary]

Hello
Check your PM

[Allemay]

There's absolutely nothing "budget" about P1, and maybe even P2 unless running at the back is ok.
Since you're new to sports racers, what about a starter season in a rental SRF3? (or pro support in your own SRF3).
TRB Autosport is up near you just across the river in western Wisconsin, and could help you out.

Thanks for the idea. I'm more of an "own it" kind of guy. I enjoy working on this stuff so I'd be missing one of the fun parts. It would certainly be an idea my wife would support!

[Allemay]

I live in Bloomington MN and race BIR 3 times a year in an SRF. Fields are not particularly large for P1 and P2 cars. I'd say there are 3 regulars that run Radicals in the group with all the open wheeled classes. I'd recommend SRF because of their popularity and parts availability. We normally get 12 to 20 cars and our own race group. With the new Sadev 6 speed sequential transmission you get no lift upshifts and auto-blip down shifts. The problem is that they might not have the same cool factor of P1/P2 and I doubt you could get one with a Sadev for $30K. It would be more like $38K to $42K. They do hold their value, as racecars go, pretty well.

Jim

Thanks Jim. One of the things I really want is the sequential transmission and I agree with you about the price of the GEN3 which is more than I'd like to spend. SRF certainly sounds like the way to go but I just think they're ugly (sorry).

[Allemay]

To be clear, that might as well be a Stohr. That's a gen 1 car, the car that Stohr built before the WF1, which the "West" version of is identical to a Stohr. The difference in performance between a Gen 1 and WF1 with identical engine is significant - several seconds per lap. There are some "tweaks" that can be used to narrow that difference, but fundamentally if the goal is to race, you are at a significant disadvantage.

That WF1 roller that you linked is my buddy's, so I am clearly biased, but I think spending mid-upper 30s for that car plus putting an Ebay engine into it, is MUCH more performance per dollar than a slightly cheaper but significantly inferior earlier generation car.

I have a WF1 that runs a BMW S1000RR engine - it's done 4 seasons now, straight from eBay. We've never opened it or touched it internally, it just starts, runs at 14000rpm, and then shuts off and repeats. MC gearboxes are great, and experiencing 2.75G in cornering in a car is an experience worth having.

-Mark

Thanks Mark. Your argument is very logical and something I'll have to think about. I love your feedback about the reliability! That's really what I'm looking for.

[Allemay]

Agreed, if you're concerned about parts availability etc... yeah, these may not be for you. Though the Wests and Stohrs are better than all others for that, excepting the Radicals. Stohr is still around...
https://stohr.com/

$10-15k for motors, those are pro built. I've refreshed my own GSXRs for around $2-3k in parts, which is still around what motors complete cost last I looked (noting that I'm still on the old '08 spec).

But if you're looking to just replace, not upgrade/design/develop parts as you go... yeah, a SRF or FE2 might be more your pace... or at least the next transition while you get used to this world... I moved up from door slammers (ITB), and the climb was steep and challenging. But that's what I was looking for.

Plenty of P1's and P2's run at RA... we'll be back out there again next year, ourselves... just look for SCCA weekends! Though seems like the season's pretty well over at the moment.

P2 has GOT to be cheaper to run than P1... I keep telling my wife that... slower, safer, and cheaper!

I spoke with the GM at Stohr yesterday. What a great guy. Very helpful. And I love to hear your comments about doing your own rebuilds. I'm capable of doing that and enjoy the process. I love improving things but I'm no machinist. I have a welder, a grinder, and a hammer and that's about the extent of my fabrication skills lol

[Allemay]

Suggest you go to the tracks and see what’s running. How big are the fields, are they having fun or spread out follow the leader. How many finish? How many motorcycle engines does it take per season?
A good old iron block Ford is about as cheap to rebuild as anything you’ll find and a club FC is fun drive.

Great idea. It's going to be a long winter!

[Allemay]

Given your budgetary wishes, put aside the cool look factor. The reality of what you want is to race a safe, full bodied car that doesn't require expensive mods every other outing. Add in a convenient parts supply, available nationwide technical support when needed, and some real competitive racing for the buck. If you not going open wheel racing, then I'd suggest you look at Spec Racer Fords. Been there, done that and they are a really good bang for the buck in SCCA racing...

I appreciate the feedback. The price of getting a SRF with a sequential tranny is my biggest issue. And I think they're ugly but I'm still open minded. I'm also thinking a little more about an open wheeled car now.

[Allemay]

Thanks to everyone who responded. Every one of you contributed something to my though process and I really appreciate it.

Am I being foolish by not considering an open wheeled car? After talking with the Land O' Lakes SCCA director it sounds like I'll be able to run in all the SCCA events. Some people had mentioned in things I'd read that they had trouble getting on track in open wheeled cars so I discounted them. I suspect those were probably track days since I can clearly run the SCCA events.

If I was to consider one which class would be most suitable considering that I want an engine that I can rebuild reasonably or pickup at a salvage yard, sequential shift, and decent parts availability?

Thanks again. Sorry to sound wishy washy. I'd still prefer a p2 car but this might be a more realistic option.

[Jim Nash]

I raced open wheel for 20+ years before folding and going SRF. Open wheeled cars are a blast. That said, the SCCA fields at BIR are slim. There is rarely a race going on. People are having a good time driving great cars fast, but given the slim entry across all the classes, there is little racing going on. It’s unfortunate. You’ll get the most bang for your buck going open wheel. Your concern about being eligible to run open wheeled is a track day thing. SCCA races will allow any SCCA class to run. Track day organizations shy away from open wheel for obvious reasons.

BTW, my SRF looks great from the cockpit. And, if you run your own car, you’ll find plenty to work on.

I should have noted, I was referring to OW classes and the lack of entries across all the classes.

Jim

[Spengo]

Zetec or MZR-powered Van Diemen FCs are within your budget (barely). No need to worry about parts availability, there are hundreds of them out there and even though the VD marque itself is dead the cars are so popular that there are even people still making brand new whole frames. The ex-USF2000 MZR cars have a sequential, though I'm not sure why that matters so much to you. The really fast guys say the H-pattern LD200 is still the most desired transmission but I doubt it matters at a club level anyway. The class is strong in your area with the Great Lakes Championship Series. There are some F1000s within your budget as well, really cool cars but I am not sure how many people there will be to race with.

[Jim Nash]

I know a guy with a MZR powered, sequential box VD. He is in Minneapolis. Races at BIR. PM me if interested.

Jim

[david oleary]

Picture in FA trim now

[LarryWinkelman]

Brad,
I can't help but think that if you buy a $30k P2 car, and start your SCCA experience with it (after "racing dirt modifieds for years and then a 1996 Firebird in the Chump Car"), and if it's mechanically sound and generally in good condition, two things are likely in the best case. The first is that after your first practice day you'll be grinning from ear to ear at how fast you're going. And the second is that you'll realize that you're 10 seconds off the pace of the top guys, getting lapped a couple times a 30 minute race, and it's going to require large buckets of money in terms of car prep, testing, tires, and motors to even get close. Your initial capital outlay is really only a fraction of your racing expense. I would suggest that if a $30k car is really all you can afford, then you can't afford to race in P2. Don't forget about trailer, unique tools, etc.
As others have recommended, I would start with a rental first. An FE2 and a P2 are similar in speed, and I believe SRG in your neck of the woods rents them, and SRF3. Assuming you get an SCCA license waiver (which you may or may not... I don't know how ChumpCar is viewed), perhaps do a couple test days and race weekends in an SRF3, and then a couple more in an FE2. You will get a feel for what each takes, what the fields are like, and whether you still want to jump in with both feet. Yes, renting costs more... but at least for a limited endeavor, it's worth it. If you decide to go full force into P2, the extra few thousand or so you spent on renting for the first season versus doing it all yourself will be round-off error in your eventual racing budget.

My two cents, to do with as you please.

LW

[eobrien]

Bang for the buck wise, you might look around for a late 90's A-MAC, Cheetah, or Decker and run in P2.

While I have zero chance against the top Stohrs, I'm typically within 2-4 seconds/lap at the higher drag circuits such as Sears Point and Laguna Seca, and a little more at the higher speed circuits due to older aero/platform so my top speed at Thunderhill is 6-8 mph slower than someone like Tim Day Jr..

The cost for a complete car and spares is typically less than <$16K (or even less), and they are quite easy to maintain.

[Allemay]

Brad,
I can't help but think that if you buy a $30k P2 car, and start your SCCA experience with it (after "racing dirt modifieds for years and then a 1996 Firebird in the Chump Car"), and if it's mechanically sound and generally in good condition, two things are likely in the best case. The first is that after your first practice day you'll be grinning from ear to ear at how fast you're going. And the second is that you'll realize that you're 10 seconds off the pace of the top guys, getting lapped a couple times a 30 minute race, and it's going to require large buckets of money in terms of car prep, testing, tires, and motors to even get close. Your initial capital outlay is really only a fraction of your racing expense. I would suggest that if a $30k car is really all you can afford, then you can't afford to race in P2. Don't forget about trailer, unique tools, etc.
As others have recommended, I would start with a rental first. An FE2 and a P2 are similar in speed, and I believe SRG in your neck of the woods rents them, and SRF3. Assuming you get an SCCA license waiver (which you may or may not... I don't know how ChumpCar is viewed), perhaps do a couple test days and race weekends in an SRF3, and then a couple more in an FE2. You will get a feel for what each takes, what the fields are like, and whether you still want to jump in with both feet. Yes, renting costs more... but at least for a limited endeavor, it's worth it. If you decide to go full force into P2, the extra few thousand or so you spent on renting for the first season versus doing it all yourself will be round-off error in your eventual racing budget.


My two cents, to do with as you please.

LW

?
Thanks Larry. Good advice. When I bought my first modified I got a cheap one. A year later I got a good one and started running up front and winning. I might have a hard time running at the back.

[Allemay]

Picture in FA trim now

Interesting. I looked at the other picture too. I didn't know that was possible.

[nautoncall]

I sent you a pm

[Steve Thomson]

Brad, I could sell one of these cars. VanDiemen FC with Mazda MZR, 5 speed sequential. I could also do an arrive and drive if you’re interested. You’d always have someone to race with. I’m moving my shop to the Brainerd area this spring.

[Allemay]

Brad, I could sell one of these cars. VanDiemen FC with Mazda MZR, 5 speed sequential. I could also do an arrive and drive if you’re interested. You’d always have someone to race with. I’m moving my shop to the Brainerd area this spring.

Well that's fun! Do you have the cars in Minneapolis now?

[Steve Thomson]

Yes, you can text or call for more info.

[billtebbutt]

I've raced lots of FF, vintage, and and an old S2000 (Lola 492, which I love). A couple of thoughts:

1. Size, storage and accessibility. Plenty of closed wheel cars like my S2000 have body work that is so large that accessing say the engine is a two person job. So if your pal isn't available that night when you want to work on your sports racer, you won't be working

2. Once that bodywork is off, it takes up a parking space on its own. Is the shop truly big enough for that?

3. I'm old, so reaching into/across a sports racer to prep it is far more difficult than working beside a FF. Between race weekends, I spend around 40 hours in car prep so it matters to me. Maybe not an issue for you. FF bodywork also slides under cars easily for storage as its generally comprised of relatively small parts.

4. Sequential shift. Never driven one and not interested in it. Have heard lots of stories (some probably true) about regular and frequent gearbox teardowns to replace dogrings - others with relevant experience could opine here. But I don't remember the last season I had to replace a dogring in any of the Hewlands

5. I suspect, unless you are lucky, that it is far easier to find a competent shop to repair a damaged tube frame than to repair a damaged monocoque. And you will incur frame damage at some point

Just my two cents,
bt

[Allemay]

I've raced lots of FF, vintage, and and an old S2000 (Lola 492, which I love). A couple of thoughts:

1. Size, storage and accessibility. Plenty of closed wheel cars like my S2000 have body work that is so large that accessing say the engine is a two person job. So if your pal isn't available that night when you want to work on your sports racer, you won't be working

2. Once that bodywork is off, it takes up a parking space on its own. Is the shop truly big enough for that?

3. I'm old, so reaching into/across a sports racer to prep it is far more difficult than working beside a FF. Between race weekends, I spend around 40 hours in car prep so it matters to me. Maybe not an issue for you. FF bodywork also slides under cars easily for storage as its generally comprised of relatively small parts.

4. Sequential shift. Never driven one and not interested in it. Have heard lots of stories (some probably true) about regular and frequent gearbox teardowns to replace dogrings - others with relevant experience could opine here. But I don't remember the last season I had to replace a dogring in any of the Hewlands

5. I suspect, unless you are lucky, that it is far easier to find a competent shop to repair a damaged tube frame than to repair a damaged monocoque. And you will incur frame damage at some point

Just my two cents,
bt

Good thoughts. The reaching across the car is something I hadn't really thought of.

I have a 42x54 shop so I'm pretty good on space. I'm going to order a 4 post lift later today so I can put my C8 up there during the winter and racecar under it.

I still have kids at home that generally lay around doing nothing so there's always an extra hand!

After racing a Firebird with a Tremec 6 speed and having to be so careful to not accidentally hit 3rd instead of 5th I really want a sequential box. I'd really like paddle shift with no lift upshifts. I'm willing to suffer the work and expense for this.

I'd hope I never got into damaging the monocoque, but I guess it's a possibility. That would be a mess. Maybe I'll just drive around at the back? Good point.

Thanks so much for the thoughtful response. Brad

[ace37]

I recently made a similar decision under similar circumstances aside from a mildly higher budget. I have three kids (7, 4, and 0) and we may have one more. I generally can’t travel for races and on average I get to the local track six Saturdays a year. I’ll get to do more at some point, but not for quite a few years.


I got started with a street donor Boxster that I built into a Spec Boxster and ran with NASA. It was a good first dedicated track and then race car. Over about five years I worked my way through HPDE and got into racing. I spun near the end of a race and got the kiss of death from a following driver (he hit the tip of my nose and twisted the forward frame). I had to choose to replace the tub or repair the car in a non-spec compliant way. I didn’t like either option so I decided to change classes and move to a single seater. It’s what I had always wanted to drive anyway.


I chose to move to a prototype over open wheel because I can race a prototype locally (with NASA) but not an open wheel car (test days only). If I could have run open wheel, I’d have gone for a FF instead of the Boxster, then likely a PFM/FE2/similar at this stage. That wasn’t what happened, so after the Boxster I initially budgeted $40k for the prototype and looked seriously at Stohrs. With NASA I’ll be sharing the track with Corvettes and Porsches though, so the low weight was a real concern.


My wife told me to spend more and get something bigger for safety. A CN/VdeV/similar class of car would have worked, but I was hoping not to need parts from Europe. I found a late model Elan DP02 with paddles in “needs nothing” condition for $60k and went for it. It was too big of a jump, but that’s what I did. The car runs a Mazda MZR and a Hewland FTR, carbon tub and fiberglass body, and about 50 were produced with a lot in common with the PFM cars. One big weakness for me is the engine is only rated for 25 hours before a rebuild. And after I purchased the car in “needs nothing” condition, I spent about $30k getting it to actually need very little. I expected to need to spend some money on it right away, but it was a bit much.


I love the platform. And I’ve only had it out around five times, but I’m at least ten seconds off the pace. Most of that is because I’m not that good and I’m still driving it like a GT car (so I need to make more use of downforce and widen my lines). I’m also still addressing small mechanical issues, so until I’m past that and trust the car I’ll leave a bit of room for error in case something important fails again. Long term I think it will be great.


I’d suggest you also see if you can try out a local racer’s high end sim rig and if you like it, buy one for yourself as a supplemental tool. The experience is definitely not the same as real racing, but it rhymes. And since a crash in a sim is so trivial compared to a crash in real life, in a sim you can run the car at the ragged edge of your skill set and try just about anything out. I’m finding a lot of learning opportunities with it, and with my family dynamic I can usually get to it at least once a week instead of half a dozen times a year like the real car. It’s hard to learn when you only drive a few times a year.. A cheap sim setup is $500 plus a PC, and a much more useful setup might be more like $3-5k for an 8020 chassis, direct drive wheel, hydraulic pedals, and triple monitors. Worth a thought.


If I was in your shoes right now, I’d give lots of thought to FC versus stretching the budget to an updated SRF or Honda FF. If you haven’t already done so, check registrations at the events you get out to and see if any car you’re interested in has a good group running - that may make it more fun. And I’d give a sim rig some consideration.

Best of luck in your decision!

[lowside67]

I cannot overstate enough that there are "race ready" cars that will take $5k to make safe and legal, and "race ready" cars that will take $25k to make safe and legal. An experienced eye that knows the ins and outs of the SPECIFIC chassis/model that you are looking at is absolutely essential. There have been some "cheap" Stohrs sold lately that I know will take far more money to even make reliable, let alone fast, than buying a "more expensive" but better car.

An important take away though is that there are basically 0 cars that have $0 to be spent on them before you take them on track. Even just making a seat is a $500 endeavour and that is the smallest of your projects with a new car.

Not to scare you off, but you have to realize that this is like buying a boat or a plane - you HAVE to prepare that there are costs, sometimes significant, over and above the initial buy in.

-Mark

[Allemay]

I cannot overstate enough that there are "race ready" cars that will take $5k to make safe and legal, and "race ready" cars that will take $25k to make safe and legal. An experienced eye that knows the ins and outs of the SPECIFIC chassis/model that you are looking at is absolutely essential. There have been some "cheap" Stohrs sold lately that I know will take far more money to even make reliable, let alone fast, than buying a "more expensive" but better car.

An important take away though is that there are basically 0 cars that have $0 to be spent on them before you take them on track. Even just making a seat is a $500 endeavour and that is the smallest of your projects with a new car.

Not to scare you off, but you have to realize that this is like buying a boat or a plane - you HAVE to prepare that there are costs, sometimes significant, over and above the initial buy in.

-Mark

Thanks Mark. This is my fifth race car, just my first time in SCCA.

[Allemay]

I recently made a similar decision under similar circumstances aside from a mildly higher budget. I have three kids (7, 4, and 0) and we may have one more. I generally can’t travel for races and on average I get to the local track six Saturdays a year. I’ll get to do more at some point, but not for quite a few years.


I got started with a street donor Boxster that I built into a Spec Boxster and ran with NASA. It was a good first dedicated track and then race car. Over about five years I worked my way through HPDE and got into racing. I spun near the end of a race and got the kiss of death from a following driver (he hit the tip of my nose and twisted the forward frame). I had to choose to replace the tub or repair the car in a non-spec compliant way. I didn’t like either option so I decided to change classes and move to a single seater. It’s what I had always wanted to drive anyway.


I chose to move to a prototype over open wheel because I can race a prototype locally (with NASA) but not an open wheel car (test days only). If I could have run open wheel, I’d have gone for a FF instead of the Boxster, then likely a PFM/FE2/similar at this stage. That wasn’t what happened, so after the Boxster I initially budgeted $40k for the prototype and looked seriously at Stohrs. With NASA I’ll be sharing the track with Corvettes and Porsches though, so the low weight was a real concern.


My wife told me to spend more and get something bigger for safety. A CN/VdeV/similar class of car would have worked, but I was hoping not to need parts from Europe. I found a late model Elan DP02 with paddles in “needs nothing” condition for $60k and went for it. It was too big of a jump, but that’s what I did. The car runs a Mazda MZR and a Hewland FTR, carbon tub and fiberglass body, and about 50 were produced with a lot in common with the PFM cars. One big weakness for me is the engine is only rated for 25 hours before a rebuild. And after I purchased the car in “needs nothing” condition, I spent about $30k getting it to actually need very little. I expected to need to spend some money on it right away, but it was a bit much.


I love the platform. And I’ve only had it out around five times, but I’m at least ten seconds off the pace. Most of that is because I’m not that good and I’m still driving it like a GT car (so I need to make more use of downforce and widen my lines). I’m also still addressing small mechanical issues, so until I’m past that and trust the car I’ll leave a bit of room for error in case something important fails again. Long term I think it will be great.


I’d suggest you also see if you can try out a local racer’s high end sim rig and if you like it, buy one for yourself as a supplemental tool. The experience is definitely not the same as real racing, but it rhymes. And since a crash in a sim is so trivial compared to a crash in real life, in a sim you can run the car at the ragged edge of your skill set and try just about anything out. I’m finding a lot of learning opportunities with it, and with my family dynamic I can usually get to it at least once a week instead of half a dozen times a year like the real car. It’s hard to learn when you only drive a few times a year.. A cheap sim setup is $500 plus a PC, and a much more useful setup might be more like $3-5k for an 8020 chassis, direct drive wheel, hydraulic pedals, and triple monitors. Worth a thought.


If I was in your shoes right now, I’d give lots of thought to FC versus stretching the budget to an updated SRF or Honda FF. If you haven’t already done so, check registrations at the events you get out to and see if any car you’re interested in has a good group running - that may make it more fun. And I’d give a sim rig some consideration.

Best of luck in your decision!

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write this up. Love the picture too. You and I actually think kind of alike (lucky you). I already have a 8020 sim rig, Fanatec DD wheel, etc. I've had it for several months and not put it together yet! I will utilize that this winter hopefully. Which "game" do you prefer? I've run a couple yer old version of F1 and really like it.

I know I'm going to spend money once I get the car. I can "afford" to go the route you've gone but I'm cheap. If I really get into this I may regret my budget buying ways but I have a lot of hobbies and very little time so investing $100k into a car doesn't appeal to me. I also really enjoy working on them and getting to know the car inside and out.

I'm also very interested in a F1000 car. Given the performance of these cars why does anyone even bother with the Formula Atlantic, FC, FF, FE cars? If I'm going this route it seems like a simple decision. Cheap motorcycle motor with most of them having paddle shift. I can't see why everyone interested in open wheel doesn't go for the F1000 exclusively. Why do you mention the FC or FF over the F1000? I feel like I've learned so much from guys on this forum and reading articles but I'm clearly still missing something important.

Again, thanks a lot for the response.

Brad

[TimH]

I spent about $30k getting it to actually need very little. I expected to need to spend some money on it right away, but it was a bit much.

That's exactly how much I would budget to get a new car going - 50% of purchase price. It seems to always wind up right around there, assuming the car isn't a mess.