NEW POLL -OW/SR FIA Rain Light for 2024

[Steve Davis]

I think I figured out how to do this correctly. I can't edit the Title of the old one .. and I can't delete the post or poll either.
Please look CLOSELY at each question to make sure you are answering "correctly".. You CANNOT change it once posted.

1). Did you submit a comment to the CRB in support of this recommended change?

2). Did you submit a comment to the CRB NOT in support of this recommended change?

3). Did you 'stay out' and not comment either way? Even if you are just a 'lurker'?

4). Do you own and RACE an OPEN WHEEL CAR in SCCA (or did you until just now)?

The idea is to get
1). CRB Comments FOR
2). CRB Comments AGAINST
3). Add these to the above for total 'votes' available from this board.
4). How many on this board are really RACING, even if seldom. (OW, includes P1/2,SRF).

It's a crappy way to get a 'poll' but the board will only allow ONE question, but there has to be at least TWO possible answers .. so this is the best way I could come up with to get it done. Confusing? Yes, but let's see what happens.

I can't think of another way to find out if THIS BOARD is in any way 'Representative' of ALL OW racers.

Hmmm... is the rain light on FE/2 on the list of allowed? Or do they also have to BUY a new one?...
Here's their rule...
f. Any rain light is allowed.

How about SRF3? . here's their rule...
A rain / brake light comprised of a single standard trailer oval lamp, 2-1/4 inches x 6-1/2 inches, with
incandescent or LED illumination is required in the original roll hoop mounting location. No changes may
be made to the original 3-pin connector on the wiring harness. The secondary filament of the brake light
assembly shall be connected to a switch enabling use as a rain light.

The NEW rule In the 'Cars and Equipment LIGHTS' reads ...
B. RAIN LIGHTS
All cars shall be equipped with rain light(s) clearly visible from the rear. The rain light(s) shall be turned on
when directed to by the Race Director or Chief Steward.
1. Non-Formula and Sports Racing cars shall utilize the original equipment red tail lights or the rain
light described in 9.3.32.B.2 or both.

2. (Effective 1/1/2024) A red taillight meeting FIA Standard 8874-2019, Technical List No. 76, is
required on all Formula (open wheel) and Sports Racing cars This light shall be mounted approxi-
mately on the centerline of the car. Light assemblies are considered one light for the purposes of
this rule, irrespective of the number of individual lamps the assembly may contain.

3. Original equipment tail light assemblies may be used. Light assemblies may perform both rain and
brake light functions provided they have two distinct illumination levels. Lights that function as
strobe lights are not permitted except in Formula and Sports Racer classes. The taillight may strobe
when directed to be used as a rain light.

Line item #1 above gives the SR's an 'out'.. but is immediately followed by a 'non-out' .. or so it would seem. SO.. unless SRF and FE already have FIA lights using the new standard, they will also have to BUY NEW ONES.
.. while all NON-Formula Cars can continue on with their OEM lights .. but they DO have brake lights.

However, I seem to recall that rules for specific items within CLASS RULES, override the 'general' rules in Cars & Equip. .. meaning that SRF and FE both get a break since the light is specifically addressed in both class rules. Is that right?

Anyway.. this poll is just a curiosity at this point.
Steve, FV80

[Steve Demeter]

UIf Formula and Sports racers need the FIa rain light for visibility reasons. What is the difference in prod, gt, touring, SR, IT and so forth. They typically have larger run groups and if anything throw up MORE spray. One with a functioning brain would think that it is even more important for them

[BLS]

(or did you until just now)

Ha, I just caught that..

[Steve Davis]

Well.. After 3 days, we are all the way up to 21 participants in the poll. Needless to say, I'm disappointed. I thought we had a pretty good sized FSRAC styled group here. Maybe we really are only a 'pea' on the whole pea bush. OR, we are REALLY REALLY apathetic and willing to go over the cliff with the other lemmings without even a whimper.

Not sure which. Seems there are MANY HUNDREDS of 'members' on this board (from the membership list).. but apparently only a VERY VERY SMALL PORTION are actually active (board wise).

Although the 'flow' of the poll is quite obvious, the small numbers don't really tell anyone anything about the 'feelings' of drivers subject to FSRAC/CRB decisions as a whole.

I do wonder what the size IS .. of all the drivers under the FSRAC umbrella. Guess only SCCA could tell us that. I would expect at least a couple hundred though. It's a real shame that SCCA can't bother to send an email to ALL of them to get a line on how the majority feels about this .... to indicate whether they might be acting in the BEST INTEREST OF THE MEMBERSHIP... or NOT. They certainly have the ABILITY to do that instead of just making unilateral decisions based on .. something... or some one thing.

[problemchild]

Sorry Steven but I found the poll very confusing, and not wanting to vote incorrectly, did not respond. Your accompanying message listed two groups of 1-4 notes and another 1-3 section. Perhaps using ABCD for the non-poll sections would be helpful. I do not want to criticize someone trying to help, but the separated message and the message with multiple numbered lists was too much for my simple mind to comprehend. I took the lazy route of doing nothing.

FWIW I am opposed to any changes to rain light rules or making the Flagtronics mandatory.

[Steve Davis]

Sorry Steven but I found the poll very confusing, and not wanting to vote incorrectly, did not respond. Your accompanying message listed two groups of 1-4 notes and another 1-3 section. Perhaps using ABCD for the non-poll sections would be helpful. I do not want to criticize someone trying to help, but the separated message and the message with multiple numbered lists was too much for my simple mind to comprehend. I took the lazy route of doing nothing.

FWIW I am opposed to any changes to rain light rules or making the Flagtronics mandatory.

Greg, you are quite correct. In my original post about a poll, I THOUGHT I had an 'idea' of what I wanted to poll about and how I would word it. When I got to the point of actually posting the poll, the 'poll part of the board' (the FORUM. not to be confused with the SCCA BOD) had a significant disagreement with what a poll should represent. The FORUM had decided that all polls would consist of JUST ONE QUESTION.. and that there would be TWO or MORE options for each reponse and those responses could be either 'ONLY 1 option' OR 'allow multiple selections'. SO.. I spent a while trying to figure that out .. how to get what I wanted... and finally wrote up the 4 'options' that I wanted to use .. then, found out that I could NOT 'See' what the poll looked like until I POSTED it.. and then I could NOT modify it or change it in any way.

So.. the only option (after seeing (kinda) how it worked), was to create a NEW POLL with a 'better' setup - but I ended up not liking that one either, but was tired of trying to create something without being able to SEE what it was going to look like - so I stopped there.

NOW.. after several days of thinking about it all, I THINK I have come up with an even better way to HAVE DONE IT.. but I'm sure everyone on the forum is tired of the whole thing .. as am I - so have opted to NOT pursue another one... even though I'm confident it would have had a better result.. IF it had been done that way to begin with - but sadly, it wasn't.

At my age.. I'm REALLY CLOSE to just leaving it to SCCA to do what they want.. and I'll go (maybe) and do something totally different. I'm still DECIDING whether I'm willing to spend MORE AND MORE money on REQUIRED STUPID STUFF when I don't really have 'enough $$$' to buy STUFF to race the way I would like to in the first place.

Yes.. it's ONLY a 'tire' or 2 here AND there.. but those TIRES are what makes the car go around the track... or not. Entry fees.. + 2 tires, TIRES.. + 1 tire, RAIN LIGHT... +1 tire (to replace perfectly functioning existing rain light), FLAGTRONIX... + 1.5 tires (and no place to put it), Towing fuel... + 3+ tires, .. and on and on it goes.

REALLY SADLY.. the poll shows that over 2/3 of the people that OBJECT to the new rain light change.. do NOT CHOOSE to use the CRB letter system to voice their concerns .. and so.. here we are.

[problemchild]

I'm still DECIDING whether I'm willing to spend MORE AND MORE money on REQUIRED STUPID STUFF when I don't really have 'enough $$$' to buy STUFF to race the way I would like to in the first place.

That says it all!

It is an annoyance for people with money and a significant issue for those without.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

REALLY SADLY.. the poll shows that over 2/3 of the people that OBJECT to the new rain light change.. do NOT CHOOSE to use the CRB letter system to voice their concerns .. and so.. here we are.

This is due to prior experience and people's first hand knowledge that the letter system appears ineffective to them.
Letters do not seem to create new dialogue or change the conversation at all.
The response we all get has a very dismissive tone.

This makes letter writing appear pointless. As if the board does what the board wants and we really have no say.
I think there have been many requests over the years that members be allowed to vote and this is dismissed as 'impossible'.

The club seems to be able to send out targeted marketing surveys but unable to send out targeted technical surveys.

[Steve Davis]

Well.. I guess this poll does show at least 2 things.. MOST (~2/3) of us don't feel it worth our effort to send a 'letter' to the CRB .. and that 'All of us' (active on this forum) is still a pretty small smattering of the actual FSRAC driver/owners that are out there.

Still.. I would EXPECT that the sentiments displayed here would be REPRESENTATIVE of all owner/drivers - no reason to think otherwise. However, we all know what that's worth despite Larue's post telling us to send in our 'letters'.

I do agree with another post.. I think that 'all things' would go a LOT better in the club if the CRB would take the time to actually TELL US WHY they think/act the way they do. It's likely that Nesbitt is correct about the issue being related to Risk Management, but KNOWING THAT would certainly help us UNDERSTAND.

2 other observations from me...
watching snow skiing/boarding on TV.. I'm always amazed at the minimal area for skiers/boarders to get STOPPED at the bottom of steep runs.. and the fact that there are almost always LOTS of spectators standing just outside a plastic fence watching. A relatively slight miscalc on the competitor's part could significantly injure quite a number of people.

Also.. was watching an AX across the front straight at Road Atlanta yesterday.. and noted that the 'slowdown/stop' area was quite a bit longer than I'm used to seeing - probably a direct result of the Washington tragedies last weekend. I think THAT is long overdue .. especially since there are almost always at least a few 'newbies' at AX along with a crowded parking area. There can always be vehicle failures, but we have no idea what really happened out west. I expect to see a new rule(s) from SCCA about 'run termination zones' coming from HQ soon. Although it's quite rare, it's also pretty easy to see how a new (or old) driver could get 'flustered' or 'confused' in the sea of cones and find it difficult or impossible to the vehicle back under control before leaving the defined course.

Let's try to be safe out there and retain the ability to continue to do what we love, before the entire world turns into a 'pillow cage'.

[Ed Womer]

I finally mentioned this latest BS issue to my wife and she took on herself to look and she found an afterburner at Pegasus for $100 that is FIA approved and it looks exactly like the one I bought for my First car. The reason I think this is by the connector that they now come with. I don't remember seeing a sticker on it but will look.

I am guessing if the CRB chooses to explain why that it will most likely be risk read insurance. So why does it not apply to EVERY car!

Ed

[Steve Davis]

Ed, that is the 2008 fia light that a LOT of us have been using since it came out. Unfortunately, the NEW rule REQUIRES a NEW FIA STANDARD (2019) light that costs twice as much and consumes almost 10 times more current.

[tgaluardi]

Ed, that is the 2008 fia light that a LOT of us have been using since it came out. Unfortunately, the NEW rule REQUIRES a NEW FIA STANDARD (2019) light that costs twice as much and consumes almost 10 times more current.

My biggest concern Is the current draw on my Vee. Vee drivers always maintain a good charge, but a bigger drain could cause issues.
Same thing with Flagtronics. We may all need to find room to install large deep cycle marine batteries!
(As a side note, I have written many times to the CRB. And you all know the response I got. So I didn't bother to write this time. Sorry)

[Hardingfv32]

My biggest concern Is the current draw on my Vee. Vee drivers always maintain a good charge, but a bigger drain could cause issues.
Same thing with Flagtronics. We may all need to find room to install large deep cycle marine batteries!

Well they are certainly not going to sweat over a few competitors that need to upgrade their batteries. You cannot please everyone.

The Flagtronic has a battery that lasts the whole weekend, so you are not going voice the current draw concern there.

Brian

[Ed Womer]

Ed, that is the 2008 fia light that a LOT of us have been using since it came out. Unfortunately, the NEW rule REQUIRES a NEW FIA STANDARD (2019) light that costs twice as much and consumes almost 10 times more current.

Steve I have an older one like I had on the vee and it did not come with a connector on the wires. The new one that I bought in 2020 for my First car is exactly what is in the picture for the one at Pegasus and it says FIA approval on the page my wife printed out.

Ed

[924RACR]

FIA approval is NOT what you need, Ed.

You need FIA 2019. FIA 2008 is no better than a trailer clearance light, at least in SCCA's eyes now.

...and the value of used Afterburner 2008 lights just went into the dumpster, as so many who have them already need to replace them thanks to this ruling.

Like I said, time to reach out to the Vintage crowd, pretty sure they're still legal there.

[Steve Davis]

Ed, you are correct.. however, the CRB in it's infinite wisdom, has DECREED that basically EVERY FSRAC car shall have a NEW.. brand new.. 2019 FIA spec rain light. Seems they wanted to make sure that pretty much EVERYONE had to buy a new one. Maybe they have stock in the 'new spec' light? On that Pegasus page it clearly says that ALL RAIN LIGHTS are FIA approved.. however, in the listing of all lights below that, only the first one specifies the 8874-2019 FIA Approval - you know, the one with the highest price .

According to posts by others, that is the ONLY ONE for sale in the USA that meets the new rule... OH - and though I'm not exactly sure what it means.. not only does the new light have to meet the 2019 spec.. it has to be ON THE LIST #76 that was produced by .... 'someone'.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=RAINLITE

CRB has not responded to the continually asked question... "Why are all the other (non formula) classes able to get by with the standard DOT issued 'brake/rain' lights that cost only ~$20 or so? My Afterburner (as well as everyone else's) seems WAY better in the flashing mode. (have you noted that almost all of the 'current generation of NEW (street) CARS' now have brake lights that FLASH for 3 or 4 times each time the brake is applied? .. I wonder why that is??

[fv22]

Haven't been to this site for a few weeks so missed this topic until now. I don't like the new rule either, but it looks like we'll have to live with it. I just did a search for "2019 FIA spec rain light" and found a company called Cartek that makes one for $150. Still not cheap but better than $200. Cartek's dealer list can be found here: Dealers - United States | CARTEK Motorsport Electronics

I picked one at random and came to this page: Cartek 2019 FIA Spec Rain Light - Morehead Speed Works

[Ed Womer]

The one on my current car I bought in 2020 and it is exactly the same one as shown in the picture. So I don't know why I would need another one.

Ed

[jackofspeed]

Just ran across this. Not sure where this stands. When did they intend to inform us that this rain light would be required? Here on the west coast we begin our season in January. I tend to think I would be informed at tech for the first race that I am non-compliant. Before this year I think I only turned on my rain light three times in over 20 years. However this year was different with rain every weekend at the Majors events. I would like to know the reasoning behind making this change. If they would make us aware of the reasoning and their discussions I could make a decision as to whether I was in agreement. I feel like the only time I hear from National is when they want more money.

[Steve Davis]

Go over and read through the RAIN LIGHT THREAD...
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...rting-1-1-2024

[Rick Kirchner]

Just ran across this. Not sure where this stands. When did they intend to inform us that this rain light would be required? Here on the west coast we begin our season in January. I tend to think I would be informed at tech for the first race that I am non-compliant. Before this year I think I only turned on my rain light three times in over 20 years. However this year was different with rain every weekend at the Majors events. I would like to know the reasoning behind making this change. If they would make us aware of the reasoning and their discussions I could make a decision as to whether I was in agreement. I feel like the only time I hear from National is when they want more money.

One of the questions I asked a director was why those of us who race where it doesn't rain would need to carry around an expensive item and subject it to vibration, heat, and possibly crash damage. Here's the response: "Yes. The decision on what to carry, what to have in your trailer, is up to you, what must be on the car is in the GCR, rain lights are also used for fog. It is a $200 part and if you are concerned about it being damaged in a crash, do not crash, with your logic you should leave everything off the car to avoid damage."

I think this answer lacks a lot of logic. I know NorCal is different from SoCal. It rarely rains just a little down here, and when it does its often undrivable. I've seen rain at Cal speedway deeper than the bottom of a formula car. But it only rains in February and August for the most part, and you can see it coming on radar fro a hundred miles. With the overall lack of rain to clear track surfaces, a little moisture out here makes the track an ice skating rink. As far as fog goes, I've been subject to that at Buttonwillow many times, but never asked to turn on the rain light. Why? Because the problem isn't car visibility. When the fog gets bad the track shuts down because one corner station can't see the next.