Changing mk9 orientation

[2fast2stop]

Here's one to ponder. How do you reconfigure a Hewland from a standard air cooled VW orientation to being flipped over for most every other application. The rear end cover must be changed for proper selector finger alignment with the three selector rods, swings directly with shifter linkage in ''upside down'' orientation instead of the reversing pattern linkage on air cooled Super Vees.



AIR COOLED ORIENTATION



HEWLAND IN ''FLIPPED'' ORIENTATION
FOR EVERY OTHER APPLICATION

Best,

FGM

[Phil Creighton]

Two observations before the peanut gallery chimes in:
Why
Dont.
Each configuration has an intrinsic value that rises it seems year by year and it would be a serious cost to change either way.
better to get something closer to what you need.

[S Lathrop]

I will double down on Phill's question. What is the problem you are trying to solve.

I have built cars that used the Hewland Mk 9 for both the air cooled VW engines and a bunch of 4 cylinder inline water cooled engines.

Of all the cars I built and raced, the Zinks with the VW air cooled engines were the sweetest.

[stownsen914]

I don't necessarily have an opinion on the suitability of flipping a Hewland, but I do have one comment/question. Why would the shift pattern change due to flipping the trans? The linkage input on the trans should only care about clockwise/counter-clockwise movement of the shaft (which doesn't change due to turning the trans upside down), and forward movement / rearward of the shaft (which also does not change due to flipping).

Trans flipping is sometimes done on vintage 911s to achieve different axle geometry. I happen to have a car with this done. I have used a stock shifter with this car/setup.

One thing that DOES change is the direction of rotation of the output flanges. This is accommodated by flipping the differential in early Porsche trannies. Not sure how it is for VWs, but the Porsche 4 bolt pattern to the motor isn't symmetrical (though it looks so at a casual glance), so some drilling of the mounting flange on the tran is needed. There are a few other internal mods for the Porsche trans that are done to ensure adequate oiling with the upside down orientation.

[Rick Kirchner]

Remember that in standard VW configuration the trans is in front of the motor, and the shift rods are where they need to be for a standard H-pattern. Now, turn it around and they are on the wrong side, flip it, and it works.

I believe in the original FSV rules you couldn't flip the gearbox, so you get the monkey motion end cover and the ring gear goes on the other side.

I'm trying to remember why FM went with a monkey-motion shifter and the gearbox situated as in a 914. Maybe the position of the output shaft or the rotary's rotation?

I think I got that right....

[S Lathrop]

I don't necessarily have an opinion on the suitability of flipping a Hewland, but I do have one comment/question. Why would the shift pattern change due to flipping the trans? The linkage input on the trans should only care about clockwise/counter-clockwise movement of the shaft (which doesn't change due to turning the trans upside down), and forward movement / rearward of the shaft (which also does not change due to flipping).

Trans flipping is sometimes done on vintage 911s to achieve different axle geometry. I happen to have a car with this done. I have used a stock shifter with this car/setup.

One thing that DOES change is the direction of rotation of the output flanges. This is accommodated by flipping the differential in early Porsche trannies. Not sure how it is for VWs, but the Porsche 4 bolt pattern to the motor isn't symmetrical (though it looks so at a casual glance), so some drilling of the mounting flange on the tran is needed. There are a few other internal mods for the Porsche trans that are done to ensure adequate oiling with the upside down orientation.

A air cooled VW engine requires that the transmission be bolted to engine upside down from what most other formula cars use. The wheel rotation is taken care of by reversing the ring gear inside the transmission.

If you look at a FV, which has the same gear selection system, inside the transmission, because the transmission orientation is the same as on an air cooled SFV, you will see that this system gives the same shift lever position as on a FV. The advantage of this system is that is is more precise and has better leverage for executing gear changes.

That explanation should be clear as mud.

[scotty82]

The Formula Mazda is a Webster build that has the case in the standard VW configuration . Model 300

It has its own bearing carrier design along with the wing mount/ finger housing and rear cover.
What you see on your picture is the old school rear entry cover and modified VW bearing carrier

Hewland MK is it own design . Bearing carrier , cover , side plates engine adaptor .
Tp flip what you would require a new bearing carrier. cover , shift finger , flipping side plates and machining those to fit ..

To take a standard VW and flip it would be a lot of work . Better to find a Hewland and rebuild it instead of trying to flip what you have
Hopefully I did not get off track here

scotty

[Phil Creighton]

As Scotty chimed in - not economical
Phil

[2fast2stop]

A air cooled VW engine requires that the transmission be bolted to engine upside down from what most other formula cars use. The wheel rotation is taken care of by reversing the ring gear inside the transmission.

If you look at a FV, which has the same gear selection system, inside the transmission, because the transmission orientation is the same as on an air cooled SFV, you will see that this system gives the same shift lever position as on a FV. The advantage of this system is that is is more precise and has better leverage for executing gear changes.

That explanation should be clear as mud.

The reason I have posted this question is because I have a brand new NOS 5-speed MK9 with a Quaife ''still in the crate'' originally from Haas set up for an air cooled FSV. I have a Lola T250 HU09 that we did a frame up restore four years ago. I am currently restoring a water cooled Lola T328 FSV HU97 and I thought the water cooled car would benefit more from the 5-speed.

The shifter question is not an issue, that is just the change of the rear cover. Since the AC VW rotates clockwise like all watercooled engines does the differential/ring gear need to be flipped. Will that affect the helical cut of the ring and pinyon gear meshing. So far I have heard no definitive answer....

FGM

[S Lathrop]

The reason I have posted this question is because I have a brand new NOS 5-speed MK9 with a Quaife ''still in the crate'' originally from Haas set up for an air cooled FSV. I have a Lola T250 HU09 that we did a frame up restore four years ago. I am currently restoring a water cooled Lola T328 FSV HU97 and I thought the water cooled car would benefit more from the 5-speed.

The shifter question is not an issue, that is just the change of the rear cover. Since the AC VW rotates clockwise like all watercooled engines does the differential/ring gear need to be flipped. Will that affect the helical cut of the ring and pinyon gear meshing. So far I have heard no definitive answer....

FGM

Flipping the diff is relatively easy to do. You do have to make sure the back lash is correct, which is controlled by the shims behind the bearings that locate the differential. Chances the pinion position will not have to change. But check backlash and the contact of the pinion and the ring gear.

My guess is that given the first gear ratios that you are likely to have with a 5 speed box, the first gear is a "launching" gear and will be useful only when you start. Once the car is moving, 4 gears will be all that you use. Most shift systems are tricky to get into first gear with a 5 speed box.

[Garey Guzman]

The reason I have posted this question is because I have a brand new NOS 5-speed MK9 with a Quaife ''still in the crate'' originally from Haas set up for an air cooled FSV....

I wasn't around for this series originally but having a T326 project, I had downloaded the Monoposto rules, which say (bold underlines are mine):
VI. Transmission/Final Drive
Any transmission/final drive assembly utilizing a VW Type 1, 2 or 3 case with four forward speeds and an operational reverse gear may be used. The case may not be installed in an inverted position. Reverse gear must be operable from the driver’s seat. The final drive/differential unit is free except that limited slip and locked differentials are prohibited. The gear carrier and gearshift housing may be modified or replaced to permit the installation of a “quick-change” final drive assembly. The final drive covers [side plates] may be modified or replaced.

[Rick Kirchner]

Yeah "originally from Haas" for an air cooled SFV with a quaife and 5 gears.... I don't believe quaife's were invented until the air cooled cars were gone.

[2fast2stop]

I wasn't around for this series originally but having a T326 project, I had downloaded the Monoposto rules, which say (bold underlines are mine):
VI. Transmission/Final Drive
Any transmission/final drive assembly utilizing a VW Type 1, 2 or 3 case with four forward speeds and an operational reverse gear may be used. The case may not be installed in an inverted position. Reverse gear must be operable from the driver’s seat. The final drive/differential unit is free except that limited slip and locked differentials are prohibited. The gear carrier and gearshift housing may be modified or replaced to permit the installation of a “quick-change” final drive assembly. The final drive covers [side plates] may be modified or replaced.

Gary, how many of the vintage cars out there are truly ''legal''. RT5's have 5-speed boxes. My T328 has ground effects side pods similar to an RT5. If you want to be specific then cars that never had front wings/sportscar nose and a rear wing should not be allowed to have them now yet most every car has them today. All early AC cars used a Type I engine not a Type IV as later cars had. All early AC cars had drum rear brakes yet everyone converted them to disc. All early AC cars must use 6'' wheels front/rear yet everyone has converted to 6''/8''. If upgrades are allowed why not the gearbox. And as far as the Quaife goes....I'm not alone. Our type of racing as we've always known is fighting to survive, we need not sweat the details....or you can surrender to the ''green movement'' and race an EV....I say ''burn that fossil fuel''....

FGM

[2fast2stop]

Yeah "originally from Haas" for an air cooled SFV with a quaife and 5 gears.... I don't believe quaife's were invented until the air cooled cars were gone.

First of all I have the Haas tag that came with it and the Serial# on both match. Second, it's quite possible that someone ordered this years later for a later updated AC FSV or maybe a car the was converted to a sportsracer. I don't take kindly to someone's accusations regarding my character.

FGM

[Rick Kirchner]

First of all I have the Haas tag that came with it and the Serial# on both match. Second, it's quite possible that someone ordered this years later for a later updated AC FSV or maybe a car the was converted to a sportsracer. I don't take kindly to someone's accusations regarding my character.

FGM

Dude, take a chill pill. It wasn't a comment on your character, it was a more about not knowing the history of the class, and not even a hard poke at that. I get it, you buy something, it comes with documentation, etc. It just doesn't mean that documentation lines up properly. My point was that if it came from Haas in 1973 it wouldn't have been a 5-speed unless it was some special build. the quaife was likely added later. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

A lot of your comments back to Gary don't seem to realize that the early cars could legally be updated - drums to discs, 6's to 6's and 8's, ground effect tunnels (my 72 royale was modifed for ground effects). Type 1s lasted a couple of years but then VW wanted to promote the Type 4 cars and that was the new engine for the series - so most cars converted. And although you might be able to make a type 1 competitive with a type 4, it would be prohibitively expensive in the long run to do so. My type 4 car purchase included an adapter to put a water-cooled rabbit motor in it because that was the motor of the day. Vintage clubs now allow AC to go to 2L because 1700 cranks are scarce (a 2L crank is a 1700 with a 5mm offset grind, and the buggy/914 community employed thousands of those mods) and a high output 1700 is a time bomb.

Your comment re: legality has more to do with what a specific vintage club will allow or not. From a practical standpoint (the impracticality of Monoposto sometimes is a different matter) nobody is likely to turn away a 5-spd LSD AC super vee on the basis of legality, even if you could find someone knowledgeable enough to know what that is.

[2fast2stop]

Dude, take a chill pill. It wasn't a comment on your character, it was a more about not knowing the history of the class, and not even a hard poke at that. I get it, you buy something, it comes with documentation, etc. It just doesn't mean that documentation lines up properly. My point was that if it came from Haas in 1973 it wouldn't have been a 5-speed unless it was some special build. the quaife was likely added later. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

A lot of your comments back to Gary don't seem to realize that the early cars could legally be updated - drums to discs, 6's to 6's and 8's, ground effect tunnels (my 72 royale was modifed for ground effects). Type 1s lasted a couple of years but then VW wanted to promote the Type 4 cars and that was the new engine for the series - so most cars converted. And although you might be able to make a type 1 competitive with a type 4, it would be prohibitively expensive in the long run to do so. My type 4 car purchase included an adapter to put a water-cooled rabbit motor in it because that was the motor of the day. Vintage clubs now allow AC to go to 2L because 1700 cranks are scarce (a 2L crank is a 1700 with a 5mm offset grind, and the buggy/914 community employed thousands of those mods) and a high output 1700 is a time bomb.

Your comment re: legality has more to do with what a specific vintage club will allow or not. From a practical standpoint (the impracticality of Monoposto sometimes is a different matter) nobody is likely to turn away a 5-spd LSD AC super vee on the basis of legality, even if you could find someone knowledgeable enough to know what that is.

This is my 40th year in SCCA Club/Pro Racing. First of all I never mentioned a year when it was delivered from Haas. I bought my very first WC FSV in 1985, my Lola T252 HU26, so I'm very well versed in the class. I made the upgrade comparison because Gary said a 5-speed would not be vintage legal in an AC car. There is someone who owns a Lola/Crossle hybrid space frame chassis, dont know if that's within the rules.

It seems everyone spends more time proving, disproving, arguing and trying to out ''fact'' one another. Our passion is dying, car values are falling, venues are closing and there are fewer race weekends. We need to stop sweating the small stuff and focus on growth. I asked a simple question, converting a MK9 from AC orientation to a typical WC orientation. I knew the proper rear cover was needed and that the diff wiuld have to be reversed. Just wanted to know if anyone had done it.....

FGM

[Rick Kirchner]

And it wouldn't be legal, strictly speaking. But we don't protest much in vintage, and if you showed up at a vintage event, you might, once every couple of years, find another AC FSV there. You're running against other FSV and FC cars. there's an equal opportunity to race against an 1100cc Cosworth F3/FC with one side of a weber blocked off.

But, you lost any hope of help from me. Nobody is trying to "out fact" anyone else. Done.

[Garey Guzman]

.... I made the upgrade comparison because Gary said a 5-speed would not be vintage legal in an AC car. There is someone who owns a Lola/Crossle hybrid space frame chassis, dont know if that's within the rules.

It seems everyone spends more time proving, disproving, arguing and trying to out ''fact'' one another. Our passion is dying, car values are falling, venues are closing and there are fewer race weekends. We need to stop sweating the small stuff and focus on growth. I asked a simple question, converting a MK9 from AC orientation to a typical WC orientation. I knew the proper rear cover was needed and that the diff wiuld have to be reversed. Just wanted to know if anyone had done it.....

FGM

Not sure what you're being so sensitive about, I didn't mean to disrupt your safe space....

After I clearly said I wasn't around for the series originally, I clearly stated that I was posting the words from the Monoposto rules. I don't make the rules, nor do I enforce them. I was sharing them because I do my best to follow the rules, as do everyone I'm friends with in SCCA and Vintage. My best friend has an engine he got with a car but after checking it's specs, found it overbored and completely illegal for FF and won't use it. Lost money but oh well, he'd rather be legal.

You can do what you want, no worries from me. Of course, if I had two vastly more experienced and knowledgeable people like Mr. Lathrop and Mr. Creighton offering advice against my plan, I'd have enough humility to rethink what I'm trying to do. But bless your heart, you do you.

FYI, there are also race venues opening and more being built. There are more events at race tracks than ever before. Car values aren't at a peak but they haven't collapsed either. Your negativity isn't accurate.

[problemchild]

Gary, how many of the vintage cars out there are truly ''legal''. RT5's have 5-speed boxes. My T328 has ground effects side pods similar to an RT5. If you want to be specific then cars that never had front wings/sportscar nose and a rear wing should not be allowed to have them now yet most every car has them today. All early AC cars used a Type I engine not a Type IV as later cars had. All early AC cars had drum rear brakes yet everyone converted them to disc. All early AC cars must use 6'' wheels front/rear yet everyone has converted to 6''/8''. If upgrades are allowed why not the gearbox. And as far as the Quaife goes....I'm not alone. Our type of racing as we've always known is fighting to survive, we need not sweat the details....or you can surrender to the ''green movement'' and race an EV....I say ''burn that fossil fuel''....

FGM

What a great attitude. Every one else cheats, so it is OK if I do too ..... and screw the environment too.

[tlracer]

As a number of others, far more experienced and knowledgeable than I am, have said - it would make more sense/less cost to buy the right gearbox. However as I understand it that's not the question you're asking....

- If both engines rotate the same way, the gearbox input shaft will do likewise in either orientation
- If the input shaft rotation doesn't change, then neither will the output shaft
- If the output shaft rotation doesn't change then neither will the pinion
- The pinion location is fixed by the bearing location

So, what you'd actually need to do it leave the crown wheel and pinion right where they are in space, and rotate the rest of the gearbox around to the inverted position!

Practically what that means is move the crown wheel to the other side of the pinion, machine/replace sideplates, spacers, etc. as necessary to get it to all bolt together correctly and with the correct backlash, then invert the gearbox and work out what you need to bolt it to the engine, allowing the clutch to operate correctly, etc, etc.

[2fast2stop]

As a number of others, far more experienced and knowledgeable than I am, have said - it would make more sense/less cost to buy the right gearbox. However as I understand it that's not the question you're asking....

- If both engines rotate the same way, the gearbox input shaft will do likewise in either orientation
- If the input shaft rotation doesn't change, then neither will the output shaft
- If the output shaft rotation doesn't change then neither will the pinion
- The pinion location is fixed by the bearing location

So, what you'd actually need to do it leave the crown wheel and pinion right where they are in space, and rotate the rest of the gearbox around to the inverted position!

Practically what that means is move the crown wheel to the other side of the pinion, machine/replace sideplates, spacers, etc. as necessary to get it to all bolt together correctly and with the correct backlash, then invert the gearbox and work out what you need to bolt it to the engine, allowing the clutch to operate correctly, etc, etc.

I asked a simple question and all I wanted was a simple answer, thank you....

You get it,

FGM

[2fast2stop]

What a great attitude. Every one else cheats, so it is OK if I do too ..... and screw the environment too.

Yes, I know for a fact there is some cheating. If you are defending the global warming lie then why contribute to a websute or participate in motorsport where the ''majority'' of the racecars are powered by internal combustion engines burning fossil fuels. Our sport probably contributes 0.000001% to global CO2. My neighbor is an Environmental Scientist/Engineer consulting major power companies. I believe what he tells me, not the government which wants to destroy our passions and also take away my collector cars, gas stove, washing machine, gas dryer, dishwasher, a toilet that flushes and the list continues....

BTW, my neighbor is a FedEx pilot and the ONLY cargo he fears the most are Lithium-Ion batteries from China, I wonder why....BOOM....


FGM