Poll: How much do you slow down for yellow flags?

[Lastminuteracin]

I've roadraced karts for almost 30 years all around the country. Been the race director several times. I've spent time in flaggers stations watching. I am just now going to dip my feet into a vintage supervee and find this thread interesting. We suffer the same issues in karting. No respect for the yellow flags and it just seems to get worse.
I can't tell you how many times Ive stood in the drivers meetings and told them it has to stop. I think if everyone would have to go to a crash scene to do an insurance report (I've seen dead and injured drivers) they would change their tune. I feel the problem lies in policing. Nobody wants to be the bad guy. Corner workers are spread thin and or inexperienced. Things don't get called in, rd's are afraid to make the call. Nobody wants to piss off the customer. Drivers continually take advantage of yellow zones to make up ground.
My take...until it's policed and drivers are made examples of it will never change. In fact, it will continue to grow worse. Will it piss someone off? Sure it will. Might there be a protest? Probably. Will they never come back? Maybe, but if they are unsafe is it a loss?
An ultimatum must be given across our sport. Speed or pass under caution and you will be black flagged. No exceptions. Make the penalties stiff and let them know that this is your only warning. Word travels fast these days. Start applying penalties and people will hear and maybe think twice. Hard ass? Yup, but I see no other way to get things to change. It's for the safety of all. Especially the corner workers. Remember that without them we don't race.
I'll step off the soap box now. Thank you

[R. Pare]

" Start applying penalties and people will hear and maybe think twice."

Yank their license for the following season. No one needs to be the victim of drivers who either intentionally go too fast in a yellow zone or are just not mentally capable of processing that a yellow in being shown.

[Steve Demeter]

Not a bad idea Richard!!!!1

[Steve Davis]

Well... I have to say.. I've run at RA quite a number of times .. maybe 12 or so? I have NEVER known that there was a flag station at THAT location going into the kink (maybe it's new?). I've never seen a flag there .. and although I watched the referenced incar video MANY times.. I still could not find the flag or station until the post with the arrow pointing to it in the 'still shot'. Even KNOWING where it was, I still could not see it from the incar at normal speed.. or even at half speed. I had to STOP the replay and inch it forward a bit at time to finally catch the flag movement. That station is notched into the trees and shadows so as to be pretty much invisible at speed. That's NOT the way flags are supposed to work. It's AT LEAST time for 1 or more LIGHTS going into that turn that are IN THE DRIVER's FIELD OF NORMAL DRIVING VIEW. One HAS to be pretty focused on the 'left track edge' and the inside APEX to make that turn the way it's supposed to be made - any 'warning methods' to the driver SHOULD be around one or both of those locations... IMHO.

And, although T10 was told to display a STANDING YELLOW.. it probably took them several seconds to get that done (relay from radio person to at least one other person.. possibly 2) .. probably the first 2 cars had already gone by.

Seems that if our feet are going to be held to the fire, the flag stations (or lights) *HAVE* to be moved into a location wherein you could reasonably expect a driver to be able to see it in the heat of battle. The flag station that caught Tim Kautz coming out of T1 is also WELL out of the 'view line' of drivers as they track out from T1 (IIRC, THAT station is just about 90 degrees RIGHT of the left track out from T1). At speed, a driver just can't have to TURN HIS HEAD to see the blasted stations.

FINALLY.. in a situation like this one.. TOTAL TRACK BLOCKAGE..OUT OF VIEW OF THE DRIVERS... the previous station (10) should have been WAVING AND WAVING AND WAVING.. NOT just STANDING.

Steve, FV80

[Shanek20002]

Well...

Having missed an outside the corner flagger showing full course yellow myself at COTA entering the esses passing slower out of class cars (and then penalized as I should have been), I think these are much better positioned. Sure, I would love them on the inside of the corner but many tracks that I have been to don't have that.

I think we all can agree these fuzzy, dirty lens videos aren't the best to just from. A few stills for you, just as an fyi.

Carousel (standing yellow for probably 30s. It did not switch to full course by the time they went by flat out)



Kink (waving yellow for some time, waving in the video)

[problemchild]

It sounds like the rules are logical (which have evolved over time).

But you cannot legislate common sense.

Time to start naming names and put peer pressure on those that do stupid things on track!

[BeerBudgetRacing]

An ultimatum must be given across our sport. Speed or pass under caution and you will be black flagged. No exceptions. Make the penalties stiff and let them know that this is your only warning. Word travels fast these days. Start applying penalties and people will hear and maybe think twice. Hard ass? Yup, but I see no other way to get things to change. It's for the safety of all. Especially the corner workers. Remember that without them we don't race.

" Start applying penalties and people will hear and maybe think twice."
Yank their license for the following season. No one needs to be the victim of drivers who either intentionally go too fast in a yellow zone or are just not mentally capable of processing that a yellow in being shown.

I think the "only warning" should be in the supplements and drivers meetings. On track offenses result in a penalty.

Yanking a license MIGHT be too stiff a penalty. Drivers leave clubs for sillier things and we do want them racing - safely.
Multiple violations could result in a suspension.

How about this penalty? -> Require the driver to flag for a weekend before they can race again.

[John Nesbitt]

I think the "only warning" should be in the supplements and drivers meetings. On track offenses result in a penalty.

Yanking a license MIGHT be too stiff a penalty. Drivers leave clubs for sillier things and we do want them racing - safely.
Multiple violations could result in a suspension.

How about this penalty? -> Require the driver to flag for a weekend before they can race again.

Requiring a driver to work a weekend in a specialty is effectively a suspension - they cannot race for at least one weekend.

Speaking as a sometime flagger, nobody out on a station wants to work with a flagger who is there involuntarily.

For example, the flagger looking downstream (i.e. holding the Yellow flag) is counting on the flagger looking upstream (i.e. the Blue flagger) to be alert to danger, and to warn the Yellow flagger. Would you want somebody who was forced to be there, and really wants to be somewhere else, covering your back? Not me.

Fun fact: The primary duty of the Blue flagger is not to wave the Blue flag; it is to protect the Yellow flagger.

FWIW, there is experience that shows that applying penalties improves flag compliance. At Summit Point, we started giving probations to first offenders. For repeat offenders, or an incident like the one at the Sprints, suspensions. Flag behavior magically improved.

Penalties do not have to be draconian (as a first step); they do have to be certain.

[Lastminuteracin]

Maybe the offender is not an actual flagger but must be there to observe and assist. They may not want to be there but will be exposed to the banter and generally get a better understanding of what these folks do for them. Just being on the headset and understanding what these folks do would open their eyes. If the offender is an azz and acts like an idiot during his “working probation” then maybe he gets a more formal suspension and sits out a few events. It needs to be a teaching opportunity. However if they refuse to take it as such it’s time to park them.

[924RACR]

You have to hit people in the wallet. Penalties should be an effective form of this.

Public shaming can work - but only if there is a community. Why should I care what a bunch of people online think of me? They're all idiots!! (not really - just making the point)

I do care about the opinion and respect of those I'm lining up on grid with; I doubt there are many drivers who don't, at least on some level. Well, now that Scott Tucker's not racing, anyway.

Public shaming also has another problems in cases like this: there are a massive amount of assumptions that are made to achieve a conviction in the court of public opinion. They are so often found to be wrong. It's spectacularly easy to watch the trackside video of the P1/FE2 crash and come to the conclusion that they were racing side-by-side into a waving yellow. Jim's video gives a massively different picture of the scenario - and he deserves respect IMO for putting it out there, even though it hardly provides absolution.

But it's extremely hard, on the basis of only video, to arrive at a blanket condemnation of a driver with so much experience at that level. I'd have a lot easier time believing that if it were a rookie driver. But he's far from it. Yet a dogpile on social media would be exactly that; an echo chamber damning a presumably very capable pilot (and I've never met Jim, despite sharing the track, TBH) as we all pile on the shame.

It's between the stewards and the drivers at this point, as it should be, and it would be up to them to disclose any outcome if they so desire.

I have no idea how I'd ever fit a Flagtronics display in my tiny little cockpit, and we've already heard about their technical limitations... but yeah, if tracks continue to move live, staffed flagger stations to useless locations like this, seems like we are gonna need some kind of automated visual display in a USEFUL location sooner rather than later.

[Mike B]

I have no idea how I'd ever fit a Flagtronics display in my tiny little cockpit, and we've already heard about their technical limitations... but yeah, if tracks continue to move live, staffed flagger stations to useless locations like this, seems like we are gonna need some kind of automated visual display in a USEFUL location sooner rather than later.

I know this thread is more of a general discussion but maybe an easy solution is to install some of the bright LED warning lights at that flag station entering the kink, similar to the lights at the end of pit lane and T1 (possibly elsewhere). Maybe the yellow flag was more visible from the cockpit but I couldn't see it in the video. Two flashing yellow lights should catch anyone's attention regardless of the ambient light.

[John LaRue]

The FT200 unit is 3" wide x 1.2" tall. https://flagtronics.com/products/ft2...-flagging-unit

[Steve Davis]

The FT200 unit is 3" wide x 1.2" tall. https://flagtronics.com/products/ft2...-flagging-unit

Unfortunately I only have about 2 cm2 room left on my dash...and I can't SEE It when belted in

HEY! Just had an idea. Why not mount a couple of yellow FIA certified RAIN LIGHTS near the driver's fov?

Steve,fv80

[Bob Wright]

The flagtronics system is currently mandatory in Trans Am and IGT, will become so in SVRA soon. More and more tracks are going to light panels and in car systems.

I found space for mine in my Van Diemen where I can see it - took a hour to mount it. If you have a current generation AIM dash, it can be wired right into the dash. It works... and costs about one tire.

[924RACR]

Unlike FIA rain lights - I DO think that the Flagtronics system is a cost-effective and worthwhile addition to our racing... just hope it can deliver on the promises (though pro racing acceptance looks good)...

[Lastminuteracin]

The in car light will surely help. A driver still has to heed its warning.

[Steve Demeter]

I know this thread is more of a general discussion but maybe an easy solution is to install some of the bright LED warning lights at that flag station entering the kink, similar to the lights at the end of pit lane and T1 (possibly elsewhere). Maybe the yellow flag was more visible from the cockpit but I couldn't see it in the video. Two flashing yellow lights should catch anyone's attention regardless of the ambient light.

How about a bunch of FIA approved rain lights. That way maybe a volume discount for the tracks and the drivers could possibly be arranged. ( tongue in cheek)

Did anyone watch the F1 sprint race today. The FIA rain lights sometimes disappeared in the car's spray that it was attached to. When they were not obscured by spray they were so bright that they hurt my eyes to look at them. And this was on TV.

[awegrzyn]

My post may not be fully related much, as I have not raced in person since 2014, but I just came back from Watkins Glen IMSA weekend. What I saw there in terms of yellows, flagging, and general officiating scared me.

There was a moment where the entire field blew by, a car turned sideways past turn 10, at full speed under yellow. The drivers did not slow down, the flaggers did not slow them down, no one did. I won't even talk about what else I saw there from officials or drivers, but flying full speed during yellow was new to me. I don't remember that from SCCA or NASA at least.

The problem was a bit two fold. The flagging person was waving his yellow flag as if nothing really happen. Super causal, even though there was a car sideways right when you come out of the corner. And since the waving was causal it felt like the drivers completely ignored him. I'm not blaming the flagging person (as I appreciate them), but someone needs to refresh their understanding of how things work, and allow them not to be afraid and own the situation, and take charge.

It felt as people were afraid to take ownership, and everyone is following the person in front, and therefore things get lowered to the most common denominator and feel "stupid" from the stands. Worst part was I assumed it was only me who noticed this as I raced in real life, but causal older fans also realized there were problems.

[swiftdrivr]

There was a long thread about the kink / blown flags just before covid hit. [The last time somebody nearly got killed there. We will schedule the next installment of the discussion for the next time somebody nearly gets killed there.] Bottom line is, the flag station for a very dangerous turn is not where the drivers are looking, Apex is Right, flag station is left if I have it correct. In-car systems are available. They won't fix stupid, and they aren't perfect, but it seems we landed people on the moon at one time. Surely we can remotely make a light flash on a dashboard. It just seems logical to me..

[FVRacer21]

There was a long thread about the kink / blown flags just before covid hit. [The last time somebody nearly got killed there. We will schedule the next installment of the discussion for the next time somebody nearly gets killed there.] Bottom line is, the flag station for a very dangerous turn is not where the drivers are looking, Apex is Right, flag station is left if I have it correct. In-car systems are available. They won't fix stupid, and they aren't perfect, but it seems we landed people on the moon at one time. Surely we can remotely make a light flash on a dashboard. It just seems logical to me..

We had the same debate at Lime Rock. I have been trying to get the downhill station moved back to the inside and something done about the station at the entry to the left hander. If something happens when you are close to the station you never see it.

Now I don't want to turn SCCA racing into NASCAR where every incident is a full course yellow..... my concern with in car lights is are they specific enough and how do you know that everyone's turns on at the same time? Maybe some drivers who have raced under it can comment. I think lights related to a station would be great. A light under the bridge at Lime Rock for the downhill would work for me and so would lights at every station - less expensive than putting in every car? Maybe a remote button held by the yellow flagger?

Just thinking..

ChrisZ

[awegrzyn]

Speaking of the devil, today at Mosport in IMSA.

[problemchild]

I cannot believe this thread continues .............

This is a completely different issue. IMSA has extended yellows where the field does pitstops, reorganizes the packs and so on. Catching back up to the pack is "part of the game" and incidents like this is very common when the pack slows to a crawl for Moss corner (this video) or the Toe of the Boot at the Glen.

This driver was very lucky. I expect that he had poor communication from his team and lack of Mosport experience. There have been a few crashes over the years under FC caution at this location at Mosport. The track configuration is a "perfect storm" for catching out unsuspecting drivers.

[John Nesbitt]

https://www.scca.com/articles/201745...t-2023-runoffs

[Hardingfv32]

Very impressive decision, without member input no less.

To refresh, is GPS required always required with this system?

Brian

[TrackBrat]

Ok this thread made me want to throw my phone at times when initially reading it. I won't be able to hit everything or much but I can make some very easy points, as I have been flagging since I was 16, was invited and worked Le Mans several times, Nürburgring 24hrs and so many other prestigious events. You don't get to these events if you suck, much less you are invited to participate. Also my dads name is credited in the F&C manual so I've been around this a good while. I also work Rescue. I also race a Spec Racer, so I have both aspects.

I honestly have no idea where to start, there is just so much.

How about issue #1 and yellow flags. Many many forget that waving also means BE PREPARED TO STOP! I don't care if you reduced 10% or 20%.....the question is would you be able to come to a complete stop at a moments notice or avoid something directly in the middle of the track and not exacerbate the incident?

During June Sprints, and for several years.....IF YOU SEE A WAVING YELLOW, YOU ARE ALREADY IN A YELLOW FLAG ZONE! Waving yellow is automatically proceeded by a stationary, at all times! How many of you thought about that and acted accordingly? Even if you were past the previous flag station you are in that yellow flag area zone. Now yes we all have that racing hunger and instinct but this is something you need to be aware of. If your response is oh I did not know that.....READ THE SUPPS!!!! It is your responsibility as a driver to know this information as it is presented to you and expected of you to have read.

So how many seriously knew this and acted accordingly when they saw a waving yellow flag?

Lights do not work if you still ignore them! it is as simple as that. Sadly for some on here it would not change their behavior. Because we still have this issue even with light systems. The only way that really catches is the GPS systems that indycar uses that goes between sectors and it automatically calculates their delta. that is $$$$$ There is also the issue of having yellow come up in your car before the demarcation line for the yellow zone as such with the Flagtronics system. I would much rather have the EM system which is used by F1 and Indycar(modified). As a flagger I have no problem with lights, as long as we have control. Also the issue is going to be lights or flags....doing both at the same time is such a pain especially depending on the number of workers. We only have so many arms. I am very hesitant about incar systems as I am about a fixed light panel trackside.

I saw a comment about not realizing a certain flag station was in this one position......I want to use so much colorful language right now. There is a reason why we have a white flag at every station on your first session of the weekend, or if there has been a change like adding a staffed station the following day. This is for you to know where the stations are. It is your responsibility. For those who have also said 11 being on the left...I can tell you drivers look at you there initially, because I have made eye contact from a distance and are almost head on until right before turn in. You are not seeing anything to right anyways, there is walls and a hill, unless you have X-Ray vision. Also saw a comment about flag stations being moved to useless locations, and I agree....just 11 has been there for oh at least 40 years!

There is so much talk about what flaggers do or race control should be doing this or that...... this is on YOU! You are the ones who are out there, you are the ones who are in control of the vehicles. We cannot jump in the car and take it over, no matter how much we would love to do it for a myriad of reasons.


Everyone hates that there is no hot tows as VIR or so many other tracks. something happens and oh FCY....and then you get to trundle around. We are so spoiled at Road America, but guess what, the way people have been behaving, good chance we could lose that privilege in the future and that would totally suck. Guess why there were black flags during some sessions......
remember even though you have been through an incident, EV vehicles move and relocate, where you thought it was it might not be somewhere else. And as Always be prepared to stop!

I am not going to comment on particular incidents at the moment or any of that, there were way too many write ups over the weekend, and I hate doing write ups!


I do have a giant suggestion for all of you. Come out and flag multiple weekends, no just a one and done I mean put some serious effort into it. Not only will you learn all this stuff.....it will make you faster. We had a marshal win his first SRF3 race at the divisional at blackhawk in one of the best races I have seen in years....and he was against cold fast vets too. I myself am towards the front of my class, and would have several victories under my belt minus some incidents while I was leading or just not having anything close to "fresh" tires. Plus if you get enough experience then you can come flag the big boy races, and let me tell you having an Indycar or a LMP car at full chaff and the only thing between you is the width of the concrete barrier....it is pure awesome.

[FVRacer21]

During June Sprints, and for several years.....IF YOU SEE A WAVING YELLOW, YOU ARE ALREADY IN A YELLOW FLAG ZONE! Waving yellow is automatically proceeded by a stationary, at all times! How many of you thought about that and acted accordingly? Even if you were past the previous flag station you are in that yellow flag area zone. Now yes we all have that racing hunger and instinct but this is something you need to be aware of. If your response is oh I did not know that.....READ THE SUPPS!!!! It is your responsibility as a driver to know this information as it is presented to you and expected of you to have read.

So how many seriously knew this and acted accordingly when they saw a waving yellow flag?

I have read both the 2022 and 2023 supps and did not see this. If I missed it, can you please link or list it. I am very much for slowing down significantly, and understand the purpose of covering a waving yellow with a standing yellow. At Lime Rock there are at least two locations where this is important.

There is a legal problem with saying you are under control of a flag you have not seen. I do not like racing to the flag, and would prefer a flag “zone” before the station where you would come under control. This will probably be implemented with the Flagtronics or similar systems.

ChrisZ

[awegrzyn]

@TrackBrat

Problem with you is you don't represent the average, you are an exception, maybe you are very good, so your flagging might be perfect and you get frustrated when drivers don't follow. Can't blame you. Also please note, I never said the blame is on officials. I think the blame is on drivers, and on officials in some way. More on drivers. I was a bit afraid to speak my mind before but maybe I should say what I have witnessed in order to make this safer.

Years ago in my driver school (SCCA) committee of officials told drivers to slow down during yellow flags. We all went out and drove until a yellow flag. After the yellow flag we were suppose to catch up to a "pace" car. We could not because we all slowed down. In the next room meeting the same officials started yelling and and kind of re explaining the idea of "slowing down", but still "catch up to the pace car". He did gymnastics with words trying to explain the paradox. He could not. We went out for another session, during a yellow flag, people started "speeding up" in order to catch to the pace car, just to freak out in front of the spawn car and crash. Everyone in that school was confused.

In another school at Lime Rock it was all about "flagging" for 2 hours. It was so detail, so good about the flags, that it missed the entire concept as a whole. No one understood it either. During yellows, people either slowed down and caused confusion, or speeded up in order to catch up.

This same behavior I have witnessed always in racing. No matter what organisation. Worst was NASA's big groups, that's where super fast cars were catching up at super high speeds. Total confusion and passing under yellows. I have all these on videos somewhere.

No matter what people tell you in that vote above, the truth be told drivers don't slow down during yellows. When I raced I learned not to follow any approach, but simply follow the cars next to me and blend in, in order not to cause confusion. That seemed the safest.

Unless all drivers have a clear cut between when to slow down, or when to speed up, this confusion will always exist no matter what racing org, and no matter how many devices you install in a car.

[924RACR]

WTF, that makes no sense. No distinction between single and double yellows? It's a damn simple concept.