Poll: How much do you slow down for yellow flags?

[Teuobk]

At the June Sprints this year, there were (shocker) lots and lots of yellow flags, both standing and waving, spread across all run groups and sessions. Similarly, there were lots and lots of drivers seeming to blaze through the yellow zones without slowing much if at all.

Hence the poll question above: how much do you personally slow down for yellow flags? For the purposes of this poll, let's say that it's your first time through that particular yellow zone (though many might argue that shouldn't matter).

Jeff

[TimH]

It does depend a bit on how much I trust the flaggers. A standing yellow can sometimes require some serious caution, but with good flaggers an enthusiastically WAVING yellow really gets my attention. And I'll admit I slow less for a standing yellow after the first time through the incident.

[LarryWinkelman]

I think there are too many variables to be accurately reflected in a poll.
Personally, if there's a standing yellow covering a car pulled off to the side of a straight (off track), clearly visible, etc., it's not at all. A standing yellow for a car that I can see, perhaps past the exit of a corner... maybe 5% if the car's not in an impact zone or 10% if it is; basically enough to know that I'm not going to lose control or track out right to the fine edge of the track near where the car or workers are. Standing yellow over/past a blind corner probably more like 10-15%. Waving yellow into a fast, blind corner like the Kink... 20% speed reduction?

[Rick Kirchner]

Maybe folks don't think about this but the first thing that enters my head when I see one is "what caused it?". A guy can just go off overcooking it. But it could also be oil or some other surface condition - hopefully they have that flag out too, but in this day and age of lightly manned corners, don't bet on it. You don't want to sail in there and add to the accident.

So I might be pretty conservative that first time by on a standing for a car off the surface until I figure out that it's OK, and then I won't slow down much on a standing - until I see the tow truck show up.

Our fire and rescue guys will call you in for zipping by too fast and they discuss it in the driver's meeting, so when I see the red cross flag on the next time by, I'll slow a bunch - 20 to 30 percent.

Waving? That's another depends. You never know what someone is going to do to get back in the game.....

[924RACR]

Maybe I'm a wuss, or a nelly, but I'm definitely pulling at least 20% out for even a single new standing yellow. Waving yellow? As much as 50%, maybe even more, depending on what I can and can't see... I'd much rather keep my options open and not make things worse.

[hdsporty1988]

Maybe I'm a wuss, or a nelly, but I'm definitely pulling at least 20% out for even a single new standing yellow. Waving yellow? As much as 50%, maybe even more, depending on what I can and can't see... I'd much rather keep my options open and not make things worse.

I'm with you! I could never forgive myself if I struck a corner worker ot stranded vehicle in a yellow flag situation.

[Bob Wright]

There are a couple of things at work here. First, with good flagging you can be comfortable that a standing flag is telling you the car is off the track and a waving flag says its at least slightly on the track and could be really in the way (how hard is the flagger waiving it?). The light panels that are being used at more and more tracks don't have that subtlety. With bad flagging, all bets are off.

As far as how much a formula car slows down vs how much they should slow down? Have you ever looked at your speed on a session cool down lap? You think you're lazing around but are probably still over 100 down the straights. 10% off and you think you have complete control but you don't really in the event of a car sideways in the track (cue video from the Sprints last weekend). I think a true waving yellow warrants backing off at least 20% or more. A standing yellow while no passing, doesn't necessarily require backing off and certainly not much, or you might get hit from behind. It does require making sure you are in complete control of your car.

As an aside, I get crazy about untrained flaggers (they are at many tracks these days) who wave the yellow for a car 50 ft off the track surface.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I think the prudent thing is to be very cautious (20-30%) the first time through.

After that you can adjust as needed.
You'll also know if a car is being pulled off and can adjust your position on track for workers.

[Mike B]

As Larry said, there are many variables, another being the location on the track. Turn 3 at Road America is not a big deal because there is plenty of real estate and visibility to avoid whatever might be on or near the track. The Kink is another story and there was an inordinate amount of crashes there. Unfortunately I was not racing last weekend but I witnessed some really atrocious driving. Overdriving through yellow flag zones, not having the car under control, etc. I saw at least 3 passes under yellow just standing at T5. Elsewhere people have been complaining about race control but it's possible that they just got tired of so many people driving way over their heads. Here's a suggestion: if you miss a yellow flag entering the Kink and nearly hit a safety truck, don't post the video on Youtube.

[Steve Demeter]

I use common sense. Slow down and be 100% under control until you can actually see the ENTIRE incident. There may be more than you first see depending on where it is (say around a corner). Then use common sense. Do NOT endanger workers, other drivers or yourself.

[Steve Davis]

The answers for the poll are not nearly 'fine' enough to pick one. It really depends on a LOT of things.. how fast are you going NOW.. can you SEE the cause of the flag.. are you in a PACK of cars or alone.... do you already know about the cause of the flag and where it is. Personally, I think in terms of control of my car and those around me. Think of driving down the interstate at 75 .. and 'some jerk' sticks himself in the fast lane (the one you're in) and just POKES along .. doing a mere 68. You feel like you're CRAWLING.. and IMHO it's the same in a race car. If you normally go through a corner at 90+.. you can REALLY COMFORTABLY go through it at 85 .. no sweat. It STILL LOOKS INCREDIBLY FAST to an EV or corner worker .. even those standing 50 feet a way in their station. But I'm truly IN CONTROL of my situation... I HAVE SLOWED.. it's just not that obvious from the outside. If I'm coming into the kink at RA and I see a car broadside in the middle of the track, you better believe I'm honking it down.. or if I come around same under a waving yellow flag.. I'm taking MAJORS mph's off before committing to the turn. Watching the youtube feed, I was aghast at the P1/P2 crowd coming through the kink full song .. and MAINTAINING that speed almost until contact with the FE - the video cut away, but you could see what was going to happen. I still don't quite understand what happened there ... the FE spun into the inside wall.. sat there (OFF TRACK, though barely) until the dust cleared and then launched himself about 1.5 car lengths into the middle of track broadside and seemed to be DEAD STICK RIGHT THERE. No other movement until the contact. I have to presume he THOUGHT he would be able to proceed, but the car practically JUMPED to that position on the track and instantly STOPPED. I hope everyone is OK. I heard 2 drivers were transported, but my internet went down this morning and it's just come back up.

Steve, FV80

[924RACR]

I used to cue more off the body language of the flaggers... but that was when they were better trained.

On top of that, now some tracks are (or were) insisting on waving yellows for workers responding to cars off track. I'm sure I don't have to explain a single driver here what a stupid idea that is...

[FE2Racer9]

As others have mentioned, there are way too many variables to set an actual poll. I take as a corner by corner basis. For example, this year at Watkins Glen there was a guy stopped in the bus-stop, not on the track but in the straight section between the tires. I knew he was out of the way and I wasn't going to end up there with him, so I didn't slow at all. But at Road America during the test day there was a waving yellow in turn 6 for EV and 2 cars off and I slowed probably 50%. Blind corner, never know what you're coming up to. I will admit though, I've started slowing way less for yellows than I did in years past because I can tell that those around me wouldn't slow as much and I would lose significant time (pertains mainly to race) to the group ahead and behind. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that if they can go through a standing yellow at full speed (or even a waving yellow sometimes) then I can too.

[problemchild]

The numbers expressed in the poll and some of the commentary are nuts. 40-50% reduction in speed is crazy and will bring way way more danger to the situation. Slowing down to 50mph in a 100mph corner is crazy. A competent driver can reduce speed by 5mph and be in complete control of their race car. A 10mph reduction will allow him to completely alter their line if necessary. A 20mph reduction is enormous and will be adequate in 99% of situations. Reducing speed any more than 20mph is just plain dangerous!

[DaveW]

My vote is "other." As others have said, it depends on the situation. You have to use some common sense.

[TimH]

My vote is "other." As others have said, it depends on the situation. You have to use some common sense.

..and there's the problem.

[FVRacer21]

From the GCR: (emphasis mine)

The yellow flag must be displayed when a corner worker or other personnel move to a less protected or
unprotected area.

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – You are approaching an incident where your and other’s safety are at risk. The
racing surface may be clear but there is immediate danger to you or others if you left the racing surface.
Slow significantly and proceed through the incident at a reduced speed. There is no passing from the flag
until past the emergency incident.
WAVED – You are approaching an incident that has great danger to you and others. The racing surface
may be partially or completely blocked. Slow significantly and be prepared to stop. All efforts should be
made to proceed through a Waving Yellow Flag in single file order. There is no passing from the flag until
past the emergency incident.


The no passing zone starts at a perpendicular line across the track from the flag and ends at a perpendicular
line across the track from the last component of the incident causing the yellow flag. The last component
may be the car, driver, responding officials, other vehicles and/or large debris.

What I was taught (way back when):
1. Check your mirrors
2. Signal to other drivers (this also signals to the flaggers)
3. Slow down safely
4. Don't block other drivers from seeing the incident if possible.

Have I been burned by being too cautious - yes.

Have I seen the second car hit the crashed car because the leading car either did not signal or waited till the last minute to move. - yes.

ChrisZ

[BeerBudgetRacing]

..and there's the problem.

Yes - Lack of common sense!

The numbers expressed in the poll and some of the commentary are nuts. 40-50% reduction in speed is crazy and will bring way way more danger to the situation. Slowing down to 50mph in a 100mph corner is crazy. A competent driver can reduce speed by 5mph and be in complete control of their race car. A 10mph reduction will allow him to completely alter their line if necessary. A 20mph reduction is enormous and will be adequate in 99% of situations. Reducing speed any more than 20mph is just plain dangerous!

20mph or 20%. I agree 20% is more than adequate.

BUT......

While we feel very comfortable 'doing 80', you need to look at 'all the dangers'.
We're only looking at the danger from our perspective.

What about the workers on track? For most of the rest of the cars on track each weekend that is an 80mph corner and they slow to 60mph.

If we are buzzing through 20% faster than everyone else - even with a track width safety margin - and we are making the workers 'double take', feel unsafe, or we're distracting them at all, we are putting them in danger. Making a mistake with their equipment can get someone seriously injured.

I've been in many sessions where the safety crew complains about the lack of slowing.

So our confidence is only part of issue.

Just thinking this through.

[FE2Racer9]

While we feel very comfortable 'doing 80', you need to look at 'all the dangers'.
We're only looking at the danger from our perspective.

What about the workers on track? For most of the rest of the cars on track each weekend that is an 80mph corner and they slow to 60mph.

This was something that was stressed in the driver's meeting at the June Sprints. Driving an FE2, I'm always in the fastest group. Slowing "significantly" is subjective, Going 110mph through a 130mph corner, which does happen in an FE2, means you are still approaching an incident at 110mph. For the workers, that's pretty damn fast still. The chief steward and race director stressed that you need to slow enough for the workers to be comfortable.

[jrh3]

From the GCR: (emphasis mine)

The yellow flag must be displayed when a corner worker or other personnel move to a less protected or
unprotected area.

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – You are approaching an incident where your and other’s safety are at risk. The
racing surface may be clear but there is immediate danger to you or others if you left the racing surface.
Slow significantly and proceed through the incident at a reduced speed. There is no passing from the flag
until past the emergency incident.
WAVED – You are approaching an incident that has great danger to you and others. The racing surface
may be partially or completely blocked. Slow significantly and be prepared to stop. All efforts should be
made to proceed through a Waving Yellow Flag in single file order. There is no passing from the flag until
past the emergency incident.


The no passing zone starts at a perpendicular line across the track from the flag and ends at a perpendicular
line across the track from the last component of the incident causing the yellow flag. The last component
may be the car, driver, responding officials, other vehicles and/or large debris.

What I was taught (way back when):
1. Check your mirrors
2. Signal to other drivers (this also signals to the flaggers)
3. Slow down safely
4. Don't block other drivers from seeing the incident if possible.

Have I been burned by being too cautious - yes.

Have I seen the second car hit the crashed car because the leading car either did not signal or waited till the last minute to move. - yes.

ChrisZ

Rather chicken sh.. to pass a cautious driver slowing for an incident

[TimH]

The no passing zone starts at a perpendicular line across the track from the flag and ends at a perpendicular
line across the track from the last component of the incident causing the yellow flag. The last component
may be the car, driver, responding officials, other vehicles and/or large debris.

Huh.

I was taught the track doesn't go green until you reach the next station. It's a bit of an assumption to say drivers can see exactly what caused the flag. Or what happened subsequently.

[FVRacer21]

Huh.

I was taught the track doesn't go green until you reach the next station. It's a bit of an assumption to say drivers can see exactly what caused the flag. Or what happened subsequently.

That was the old rule and certain tracks (I think Watkins Glen) was one that held onto it for a long time.

Yes, there could be multiple incidents or cars limping back.

The kicker is at Thompson, I now look in my mirror after passing a yellow. There was a spin just before turn 1. Waving yellow at S/F. Soon as I passed, the incident cleared. Yellow dropped. The cars behind me did not have a yellow. Guess who got freight trained.....

On the other hand you have the uphill at Lime Rock - no way you can wait for the corner at the top, they will usually cover a waving at the top with a standing at the bottom.

go to 5:25 on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RCFLArGt4Y&t=272s

Glad I was not in a faster car....

ChrisZ

[TimH]

On the other hand you have the uphill at Lime Rock - no way you can wait for the corner at the top, they will usually cover a waving at the top with a standing at the bottom.

go to 5:25 on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RCFLArGt4Y&t=272s

Glad I was not in a faster car....

Hey, you might have fit under him.

All things considered, I'm willing to lose positions for being too cautious. I guess that means I'm not a real racer but just a mid-pack vintage guy. Can live with that.

[mmi16]

Unless you SEE something impeding your intended path - when you SEE a YELLOW, standing or waved - you back out of the throttle, you are not hitting the brakes; you will slow at the natural rate of not being on the throttle. Hitting the brakes if you are in a traffic situation when you come upon the YELLOW is a perfect way to make a minor situation into a major situation. If for whatever reason you do brake, you better have a arm in the air to warn following drivers.

The exhaust tone tells the flaggers more about your attention to the YELLOW than does your actual speed. Be on the throttle and you can be guaranteed to be talking to the Stewards after the session.

[John Nesbitt]

I certainly empathize with drivers who ease off the throttle and feel like they are crawling along. I know that I have felt like that. The problem is that we are still moving at a fair clip, and an outside observer may not perceive much slowing.

The GCR (quoted above) says, “Slow significantly”. How to interpret that? I can think of a couple of measures.

1. Call it “Objective”. If you spin, or hit anything or anybody, or even come close, you are toast. This is indefensible. You might as well bring your license up to the tower because the stewards will suspend it for sure.

2. Call it “Subjective”. If you come through the incident zone fast enough that the responding flaggers and emergency staff feel at risk, expect a difficult conversation with the stewards. Obviously, your defense is that you did not hit anything. Do not count on its being persuasive.

Early in my stewarding career, I spent a weekend working EV at Summit Point. A car had a brake failure approaching T1. It went straight into the gravel trap, not too far off track. We were moving it under a local (standing) Yellow.

I vividly remember watching folks racing to the Yellow, and hoping that nobody else’s brakes failed. Ever since, I have been very sympathetic to the concerns of flaggers and EV workers.

I recommend working an event as a flagger or EV worker. See how the other half lives.


The answer to “How much to slow?” is, enough that you are absolutely, 100%, cast-iron, for-sure, never-fail, rain-or-shine certain that you will traverse the incident zone no matter what is there (and it may be different from your last trip through).

[Chris Livengood]

You go as fast as the track conditions allow. It's simple.

[DaveW]

You go as fast as the track conditions allow. It's simple.

Not at all. Not every driver can judge track conditions correctly even under the best circumstances.

[TimH]

Not at all. Not every driver can judge track conditions correctly even under the best circumstances.

Especially when you can't even see what's around that corner.

[John LaRue]

You go as fast as the track conditions allow. It's simple.

Might want to look at this one:

https://www.facebook.com/10000781633...4073796621978/

[Bob Wright]

Yea....The P1 car never lifted at all until he was through the kink and saw the blockage- was there a waving yellow and where was it?

We won't even mention what was the FE2 thinking? Gawd......

[LarryWinkelman]

At about 7:07 in the video you can see a waving yellow at the station outside (left) of the kink, basically perpendicular to the apex. I think there used to be a corner station at the end of the concrete wall just past the bridge before the chicane, but I didn't see a flag at that station in the video. Not sure if that's no longer a station, wasn't staffed, or I just missed it (it goes by fast at 140 mph!).
IMO, a number of flag stations at Road America have been moved to positions where they are less visible than ideal.

As for the FE2, he was off right and may have touched the wall (seen on SCCA broadcast). Started to move and presumably stalled, or something broke.

[R. Pare]

While I understand that the rules about the start of a yellow zone had to define something that would be common to all flagging stations and easily understood, the fact that it allows your to LEGALLY race right up to that line across the road from the flagger, even if the wreck is just in front of that line, is shear stupidity. As far as I'm concerned, if you can see the yellow flag being displayed, THAT is the start of the slow down zone.

With the rules as they are, something needs to be done to address that sort of situation.

[TimH]

Yea....The P1 car never lifted at all until he was through the kink and saw the blockage-.

Hey, he successfully cleared away the block for everyone else!

[Peter Olivola]

While I understand that the rules about the start of a yellow zone had to define something that would be common to all flagging stations and easily understood, the fact that it allows your to LEGALLY race right up to that line across the road from the flagger, even if the wreck is just in front of that line, is shear stupidity. As far as I'm concerned, if you can see the yellow flag being displayed, THAT is the start of the slow down zone.

With the rules as they are, something needs to be done to address that sort of situation.

There is a flagging procedure to handle those and other serious situations. The station waving should call for the preceding station to go standing yellow.

[Teuobk]

At about 7:07 in the video you can see a waving yellow at the station outside (left) of the kink, basically perpendicular to the apex. I think there used to be a corner station at the end of the concrete wall just past the bridge before the chicane, but I didn't see a flag at that station in the video. Not sure if that's no longer a station, wasn't staffed, or I just missed it (it goes by fast at 140 mph!).
IMO, a number of flag stations at Road America have been moved to positions where they are less visible than ideal.

Yup, there's an onboard from one of the other P1s making the rounds where you can very clearly see a vigorously waved yellow at the entrance to the Kink, plus a backup standing yellow in turn 10 (i.e., somewhat before the bridge). This was in fact the situation that prompted me to post this poll.

EDIT: Here's the standing yellow in T10 just before the incident in question that was "conveniently" cropped out of the video that was posted on Facebook, as seen from a different one of those cars:



Jeff

[Teuobk]

Also, a review of our F&C recording from during the P1 vs FE2 incident (which we capture as a byproduct of our radio setup) shows that turn 11 (at the entrance to the kink) was waving yellow for 20 seconds prior to the FE2 car even rolling back onto the track surface (and thus completely blocking the track).

Control then called for FCY 5 seconds prior to the P1 impacting the FE2.

Jeff

---

Transcript (times relative to P1 vs FE2 impact):

T-0:35 [Unknown, possibly Turn 11B] - "Eleven go waving yellow. Eleven go waving yellow. Eleven go waving yellow."
T-0:29 [Control] - "Eleven, are you waving?"
T-0:24 [Turn 11] - "Eleven is waving, using the (inaudible)"
T-0:20 [Unknown] - (inaudible, crosstalk)
T-0:19 [Turn 11B?] - "25 percent track blockage. Heavy impact into the wall driver's right.
T-0:14 [Control] - "Copy"
T-0:13 [Turn 11B?] - "Car is moving"
T-0:12 [Control] - "Heavy impact, driver's right, 25 percent track blockage."
T-0:09 [Turn 11B?] - "Hundred percent track blockage. Car is moving to the middle of the track."
T-0:06 [Control] - "Hundred percent, copy" (Background on Control's audio: "Double yellow.")
T-0:04 [Control] - "Full course yellow. Full course yellow. Full course yellow. All the way around."
T+0:01 [Turn 11B?] - "We have impact, second car into first car. Alert."
T+0:05 [Control] - "Copy, alert at 11. Second car into the first. Again we are at full course yellow. We're full course yellow"
T+0:11 [Control] - "Red flag all. Red flag all. Drop the yellows, put up the reds. Red flag all."

[Shanek20002]

As much as it is great to see all the comments so I can get a better understanding where my fellow racers' mindsets are at, unfortunately there is a lack of consistency. I will just leave this here from the June 2023 GCR

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – You are approaching an incident where your and other’s safety are at risk. Theracing surface may be clear but there is immediate danger to you or others if you left the racing surface.Slow significantly and proceed through the incident at a reduced speed (emphasis added). There is no passing from the flaguntil past the emergency incident.
WAVED – You are approaching an incident that has great danger to you and others. The racing surfacemay be partially or completely blocked. Slow significantly and be prepared to stop (emphasis added). All efforts should bemade to proceed through a Waving Yellow Flag in single file order. There is no passing from the flag untilpast the emergency incident.The no passing zone starts at a perpendicular line across the track from the flag and ends at a perpendicularline across the track from the last component of the incident causing the yellow flag. The last componentmay be the car, driver, responding officials, other vehicles and/or large debris.

DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the entire course is under yellow (full courseyellow). All stations will display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NOPASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other cars that are disabled or offpace (see 6.6.2.).NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency area. The requirements are stillthe same: SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING.

For those who want to argue against the rules, feel free to do so.

As for the recent incident at June Sprints:

(i) there was a standing yellow back in the carousel --> drivers continued on flat out.
(ii) there was a waving yellow in the kink --> Drivers continued on flat out.

Facts are facts on that aspect.

[Shanek20002]

deleted, double post

[FVRacer21]

While I understand that the rules about the start of a yellow zone had to define something that would be common to all flagging stations and easily understood, the fact that it allows your to LEGALLY race right up to that line across the road from the flagger, even if the wreck is just in front of that line, is shear stupidity. As far as I'm concerned, if you can see the yellow flag being displayed, THAT is the start of the slow down zone.

With the rules as they are, something needs to be done to address that sort of situation.

Yes you could race right to the line, but the incident might be right over the line. Again, Watkins Glen used to say the rule you were under caution when you SAW the flag, but this is almost impossible to enforce. Thus drivers need to participate by safely slowing down while signaling to other drivers.

ChrisZ

[DaveW]

...
As for the recent incident at June Sprints:
(i) there was a standing yellow back in the carousel -->drivers continued on flat out.
(ii) there was a waving yellow in the kink --> Drivers continued on flat out.[/INDENT]
Facts are facts on that aspect.

I was involved in a similar incident in that same corner at the Runoffs in 2009. Several cars ahead of me came together and blocked the track.

When I came out of the carousel, there was a yellow (I don't remember waved or not) and the waving yellow just before the incident.

I slowed before the kink and got stopped on the track several yards before the first car blocking the track. Someone behind me didn't slow and hit the rear of my car doing a LOT of damage, punting me into the above stopped car doing more damage, and cracking a vertebrae just above my tailbone which I didn't know until it started to hurt weeks later as it healed.

It seems like folks just aren't as aware of their surroundings as they should be.