Camera requirement

[Steve Demeter]

I was looking for a bit of help interpreting this. does it apply to non runoffs eligible classes. It appears to me that it does.

[John Nesbitt]

I was looking for a bit of help interpreting this. does it apply to non runoffs eligible classes. It appears to me that it does.

Yes, every class and pretty much every event.

From 9.3.11.A: "All cars competing at Regionals, Conference Majors, Super Tour events, and the SCCA Runoffs must ..."

By that language, if you were running an SCCA sanctioned test day or driver school, the camera would be optional.

[Marshall Mauney]

When did this get added? That's a nice extra cost to dissuade new drivers.....

[John Nesbitt]

When did this get added? That's a nice extra cost to dissuade new drivers.....

Regionals and conference Majors became effective Jan. 1 of this year.

I know that added costs are a red button issue here. However, I have sat on a couple SOM courts this year, and video from following cars was critical in reaching correct and just decisions. FWIW, I heard no complaints from drivers at events.

[FVRacer21]

When did this get added? That's a nice extra cost to dissuade new drivers.....

Funny, I just picked up a $60. SJC from B&H, and while you might have to fabricate a mount for your car, a lot more useful than a $200 rain light…….

in fact a $30 Vivitar was my favorite camera until it got wet, my error.

You don’t need a $500 or $1000 camera to fill the requirement.

the biggest issue is remembering to keep it charged and a good card in it.

ChrisZ

[Rick Kirchner]

What are the penalties for non-compliance? I intend to run one SCCA event this year, so on top of the membership, a camera for regionals.....

[Dave Harmison]

I wasn’t aware of this until my local tech chief mentioned it in passing a couple weeks before a race. I was shocked it hadn’t been discussed here.

I will say, from my experience, video can be misleading, especially with the wide angle lenses they use. Looking at video, my worst ever accident looks one way, when combined with the data trace, totally different interpretation. Being as I’m a one man show, will I have adequate time to go through the video and the data before a judgment is made so I can present my case?

The GCR was written with the idea of having human witnesses. Sifting through data can take lots longer than the GCR provides.

[John Nesbitt]

What are the penalties for non-compliance? I intend to run one SCCA event this year, so on top of the membership, a camera for regionals.....

The GCR does not have a set penalty. In fact, the GCR has extremely few set penalties.

Stewards work with a set of guidelines for commonly-occurring infractions. See attached copy of the current version. Please note that these are guidelines, not rules. Stewards can, and do, vary from the guidelines according to individual circumstances.

Some years ago, I was part of a working group that tracked penalty application. We found that, for infractions covered by the guidelines, stewards applied the guideline penalty in 80% of cases. The remaining 20% split about equally between more and less severe. So, the guideline penalties are a reasonable expectation of outcomes.

[John Nesbitt]

I wasn’t aware of this until my local tech chief mentioned it in passing a couple weeks before a race. I was shocked it hadn’t been discussed here.

I will say, from my experience, video can be misleading, especially with the wide angle lenses they use. Looking at video, my worst ever accident looks one way, when combined with the data trace, totally different interpretation. Being as I’m a one man show, will I have adequate time to go through the video and the data before a judgment is made so I can present my case?

The GCR was written with the idea of having human witnesses. Sifting through data can take lots longer than the GCR provides.

The perfect is the enemy of the good enough.

In my time as a steward, if I had a nickel for every time a driver has complained that stewards don't take action, I could buy myself dinner. Maybe not Ruth's Chris, but certainly Five Guys.

One of the leading reasons why we don't take action on an incident is lack of/conflicting evidence. Either there were no witnesses, or statements contradict each other (often the case with a car-to-car incident with no other witnesses). And eyewitnesses can be mistaken. I have had multiple flaggers give the same account of a metal-to-metal, only to find that the marks on the two cars tell the exact opposite story.

That is why video is a game-changer. As I mentioned above, I have been on the SOM for several cases this year where drivers in car-to-car incidents told conflicting stories. In each case, video from following cars (even if wide-angle) gave a definitive picture. We showed the videos to the parties, and they saw with their own eyes what had really happened.

As imperfect as it may be, video is a tremendous improvement.


On the time question, the GCR provides ample time to assemble your data.

The only hard time limit is the 30 minutes you have to file a protest. Simply flag down a steward (tech steward, impound steward, operating steward, Chief Steward). At a pinch, stop somebody with a radio and tell to call the tower, saying that a driver wants to file a protect. That stops the clock, and you can assemble your case. If, on reflection, you decide not to proceed, withdraw your protest.

SOM hearings do not proceed under any time limit; just tell the chairman that you have data to assemble.

[Dave Gomberg]

I have never had a camera in my car before, but the new requirement made me look around. I found this on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HGM33HG...roduct_details

You do have to buy a micro-SD card separately, but those are easily available for under $20. This unit comes with multiple attachment devices. I ended up mounting the camera (in the waterproof housing) using the bicycle handlebar mount on one of the roll hoop stays. The quality of the recordings are stunning (1080p).

Dave

P.S. I'm pretty sure this is a knock-off of some Go Pro, but it is much less expensive.

[problemchild]

Unfortunately, cameras are pretty much disposable items. If you ask most race teams, they can probably give you several that no longer work, and you can affix them to your car. I have a box full. Being as good cameras often don't record anyway, saying your camera did not record, is a completely valid excuse for not being able to provide video.

As a friend once explained to me ...... it says you need to wear arm restraints, but does not specify where you wear them.

There are many very cheap spy and security cameras available. I once had a Chinese spy camera that I paid $17 for and used for several seasons. It worked often. You can mount it on your helmet, roll bar, or cowl and turn it on yourself. Not a bad tool to improve your driving by.

[Bob Wright]

Interesting direction SCCA took. FRP only 'recommends' cameras as Greg mentions above, because they often don't work, or the battery runs out or something.

From a steward's standpoint, video is tremendously helpful, but our stewards spend literally hours reviewing incidents until they're cross-eyed. The existence of the videos tends to make competitors complain about on track incidents more often, which causes more hours of review by stewards- a vicious circle. Not sure I have a solution...other than drivers need to learn how to drive better and stop hitting or blocking each other.

BTW, this is a really good POV camera...
Cambox Horse Origin Riding Helmet Camera | Riding Warehouse

[Rick Kirchner]

The GCR does not have a set penalty. In fact, the GCR has extremely few set penalties.

Stewards work with a set of guidelines for commonly-occurring infractions. See attached copy of the current version. Please note that these are guidelines, not rules. Stewards can, and do, vary from the guidelines according to individual circumstances.

Some years ago, I was part of a working group that tracked penalty application. We found that, for infractions covered by the guidelines, stewards applied the guideline penalty in 80% of cases. The remaining 20% split about equally between more and less severe. So, the guideline penalties are a reasonable expectation of outcomes.

Wow. Loss of qualifying or moved to the back for not having a device that is not a safety item, or, could fail as soon as the car leaves the grid, which MIGHT be used by the stewards, but likely not. Does anyone here feel the punishment fits the crime? Also covered under this I suppose would be stickers. Once, at a race at Roebling Road, the ONLY thing tech checked was stickers.

So who puts these guidelines together (considering someone felt so strongly about it that they put the camera topic in red?

As to a previous comment about the surprise at this not being discussed here - consider that it was previously just a Majors/Runoffs item, and it was pretty easy to sneak a few words in under the radar.

Cameras are things that should be recommended, not required. We did just fine without them for what? - 50 years? If you have data that helps your case fine, if not, nothing has changed.

[John Nesbitt]

...

So who puts these guidelines together (considering someone felt so strongly about it that they put the camera topic in red?

As to a previous comment about the surprise at this not being discussed here - consider that it was previously just a Majors/Runoffs item, and it was pretty easy to sneak a few words in under the radar.

...

The text highlighting in red merely indicates a change from the previous edition. The same is true in the GCR.

As for sneaking under the radar, the CRB posted a What Do You Think?, inviting member feedback, on this language in the February 2022 Fastrack, followed by a recommendation to the BOD in the April 2022 Fastrack.

[E1pix]

Cameras are things that should be recommended, not required. We did just fine without them for what? - 50 years? If you have data that helps your case fine, if not, nothing has changed.

I agree with this 100%.

Comments here describe steward interpretation, but there’s more to that than, Ahem, meets the eye. I’ve spent thousands of hours over 48 years peering through lenses, and lens coverage is one tricky business. Photographers use various length lenses to skew reality, and especially with wide-angle lenses that “push out” everything in the scene to capture more of it. When viewed later, most people don’t recognize this effect but rather interpret it as what the eye would see as normal — i.e., a normal lens perspective, which is 50mm.

For reference, a 25mm lens sees *four times* the area of a human eye, and to my understanding, most onboard cameras fall into the wide angle category and thus skew any visual sense of reality.

I’ve returned to the scene of my (non-racing) images many, many times, and compared what I’m looking at to an earlier wide-angle photo. And despite years of interpreting experience, I can hardly believe my eyes in how different reality is to what I photographed with a perspective-altering lens.

What this has to do with this topic is this: despite decades of visual experience that no steward can ever possibly attain, if I were judging an incident on video from a wide-angle perspective, I would struggle to find reality-based fault based on any video wider than a 50mm, normal-to-the-eye perspective.

Now, in some cases of obvious infraction none of this matters. But in cases where viewers have to replay it over and over and over to find fault, the change in perspective means it’s impossible to do so — and the entire concept is totally invalidated.

Beyond that, as has been stated hereabouts, the more SCCA mandates expenses like this, or rear brake lights, or whatever’s next, the harder it is for the common man to budget — or even justify racing at all. I waited 59 long years to buy my first car, and did so last year. I’ve yet to run it for a variety of reasons, and may finally get to run next year.

But the more forced expenses I read about, the greater the likelihood I sell the car — and never bother to even go and watch a road race again, much less realize my life’s dream. Too much BS, too much uncertainty for the investment — and this is supposed to be fun after all.

[BLS]

The text highlighting in red merely indicates a change from the previous edition. The same is true in the GCR.

As for sneaking under the radar, the CRB posted a What Do You Think?, inviting member feedback, on this language in the February 2022 Fastrack, followed by a recommendation to the BOD in the April 2022 Fastrack.

Thanks for the explanation John. I'm sure many others appreciate your explanations of how/why on many topics whether they agree with the how/why or not.

[Rick Kirchner]

I often wonder how many changes the membership agrees to because they're only given one option....

Just like surveys. You can get the answer you want with the proper construction of the questions.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Cameras are things that should be recommended, not required. We did just fine without them for what? - 50 years? If you have data that helps your case fine, if not, nothing has changed.

I have always run a camera. Used to use the GoPros and often forgot to turn them on! Have an AIM GP now.

SFR was the first region I ran across that required it.

1. Cost. Lot's changed in 50 years. You can get a compliant 2 camera system for under $200. Even 10 years ago it would have been cost prohibitive.

https://www.amazon.com/Blueskysea-A1...s%2C178&sr=8-3

2. Training. I'm always learning and reviewing my footage helps. Especially when I screw up.

3. "Safety" / Incident resolution. My experience is they are invaluable.
I have been involved in 2 testing session incidents that have ended my weekend. In both cases I was initially blamed by the other party as well as other racers that know me because 'they have a lot more experience - you must have done something'.
Until the video is reviewed. Then the argument changes....

Video makes drivers "honest"

Video that shows the mirror is also very helpful. That's why I suspect we'll see a 2 camera requirement at some point.
Those motorcycle systems are mostly 2 camera for a reason!

I guess I'm already 'pro-camera' so ....

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Here's a 2 camera system for $110...
https://www.amazon.com/VSYSTO-Motorc...ZfbmV4dA&psc=1

[RussMcB]

I've had good luck with two of these.

Mobius action camera 1080p

https://www.amazon.com/sspa/click?ie...hdGY%26psc%3D1

[problemchild]

Beyond that, as has been stated hereabouts, the more SCCA mandates expenses like this, or rear brake lights, or whatever’s next, the harder it is for the common man to budget — or even justify racing at all.

How did we ever manage to go racing without arm restraints, HNR devices, radios, fuel cells, intense rain lights ..... never mind enclosed trailers, awnings, RVs, etc? The famous Bruce and Denny show used open trailers, one behind a van and the other behind a station wagon. Always had room for their golf clubs. I expect their Can-Am budget was less than many club racers today, even with dollar adjustments.

I don't think the rule makers understand that the continual creep in costs is so harmful to entry level racers, never mind the senior drivers that make up much of the SCCA racing community and are trying to keep their racing going.

[Mark_Silverberg]

Here's a 2 camera system for $110...
https://www.amazon.com/VSYSTO-Motorc...ZfbmV4dA&psc=1

I tried using a Vsysto system last year - not this model but a similar with GPS and auto recording with power on. I had numerous issues will the camera malfunctioning - it would continue to record but the video file was corrupted. When it worked the video quality was quite good. Support from the manufacturer is non-existent and there is not an office in the US or a phone number to be called.
A shame because when the system worked it was quite good.

[John Nesbitt]

How did we ever manage to go racing without arm restraints, HNR devices, radios, fuel cells, intense rain lights .....

Stuart Lewis-Evans
John Taylor
Lorenzo Bandini
Jo Schlesser
Jo Siffert
Roger Williamson
Peter Revson
Elio de Angelis
Denny Hulme

All of them F1 drivers. And everyone of them would have been happy to have a fuel cell and fire system.

The world doesn't stand still. It moves forward. Even racing. Even SCCA racing. Nomex clothing. Snell helmets. Frame and rollbar standards. Head-and-neck restraints. ALS ambulances. Medevac helicopters. Trackside obstacle removal/protection. Fire-resistant gloves, socks, and shoes. Seat and shoulder belts. Fuel cells. Armco. Fire systems.


We are not in the 60s or 70s anymore.

[E1pix]

I took Greg’s comment as listing mandated expenses, not as a statement against safety.

A great mentor and fellow teen journo was killed at Indy. Today, he’d have likely been fine. But I knew him well enough to know he absolutely wouldn’t have traded not being able to be there to begin with for dying into that wall.

In SCCA F terms, who amongst us wouldn’t love to see the 42 best-qualified FFs at the Runoffs again?

Yep, everything evolves. But by definition that should not mean ever-limited participant access, even if only a check at a time.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I tried using a Vsysto system last year - not this model but a similar with GPS and auto recording with power on. I had numerous issues will the camera malfunctioning - it would continue to record but the video file was corrupted. When it worked the video quality was quite good. Support from the manufacturer is non-existent and there is not an office in the US or a phone number to be called.
A shame because when the system worked it was quite good.

Good feedback - never used one.

Did that happen at shutoff?

Some of these claim to turn on and off with the power source but corrupt the last file when suddenly powered down.

My suspicion is the more you pay the more QC tests you get

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I've had good luck with two of these.

Mobius action camera 1080p

https://www.amazon.com/sspa/click?ie...hdGY%26psc%3D1

Look pretty good. That one starts and stops on motion. Cool.

I will never setup a camera without some sort of auto start/stop.

Was always my problem with goPro. They never made that possible - even though the founder raced.

[Steve Demeter]

I have never had a camera in my car before, but the new requirement made me look around. I found this on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HGM33HG...roduct_details

You do have to buy a micro-SD card separately, but those are easily available for under $20. This unit comes with multiple attachment devices. I ended up mounting the camera (in the waterproof housing) using the bicycle handlebar mount on one of the roll hoop stays. The quality of the recordings are stunning (1080p).

Dave

P.S. I'm pretty sure this is a knock-off of some Go Pro, but it is much less expensive.

Dave, did you try it on your car at speed. A lot of the not so expensive cameras have the quality go to crap when subjected to the vibrations in a race car like ours. Yo might have to devise some sort of isolating mount. Been there done that

Actually had trouble with a GoPro having the card momentarily shake loose and shut the camera down.

[Rick Kirchner]

I have always run a camera. Used to use the GoPros and often forgot to turn them on! Have an AIM GP now.

I guess I'm already 'pro-camera' so ....

I don't disagree with any of this, except for the requirement aspect.

I had a camera in my car in 2005 - A ungodly expensive Sony XC999 going into a Sony 8mm deck where my current DAQ is now. Lasted exactly one session at Buttonwillow before departing. Found the camera, but not the lens - and the lens costs several times as much as most cameras. Anybody need a XC999 body?

My last one was a replay XD that got stolen at Roebling.

But I find it a challenge to use the video at the track. I usually went through it at home while I was typing up my race notes.

We've transitioned from an era of common sense to an era of bull**** certifications. The belt and HANS stuff has its basis in science - except it's so far out there as to be ridiculous. The FAA doesn't require replacement, neither does the DOT. Your helmet can get nasty, but as long as the strap is OK and it hasn't been dropped, it's likely OK too. So if you want to life them, fine, but it ought to be 10 years past the in-service date, not some Snell Sticker, or condition based. When was the last time someone died from an inadequate helmet in SCCA or Vintage Road racing? I'll wait....

I paid to have a set of belts re-webbed. The were returned to me with new tags - on the old, frayed webbing! But hey, the tag said they were good....

And I still don't understand the difference in non-compliance between not having a camera and having one that didn't start, corrupted the video, pointed off at the stars, departed the car, etc,etc,etc.

[Mark_Silverberg]

Good feedback - never used one.

Did that happen at shutoff?

Some of these claim to turn on and off with the power source but corrupt the last file when suddenly powered down.

My suspicion is the more you pay the more QC tests you get

No, it happened during use - the initial file would be good and then it would become pixelated and mostly white fuzz - eventually going to blue screen - but it was apparent that there was some video still in the background - and I think the speed reading was still being shown for a while. It may be a issue with just my particular unit. If the camera was reliable this would be a very good system for the money.

[Dave Gomberg]

Dave, did you try it on your car at speed. A lot of the not so expensive cameras have the quality go to crap when subjected to the vibrations in a race car like ours. You might have to devise some sort of isolating mount. Been there done that

Actually had trouble with a GoPro having the card momentarily shake loose and shut the camera down.

Yes, I had it on the race track for the first time a couple of weeks ago and it functioned flawlessly. Yes, you have to remember to turn it on and to keep it charged, but I was very pleased with the video quality and stability. My driving, not so much.

Dave

[Hardingfv32]

What about lens protection?

And a much harder problem: lens cleaning during the session?

Brian

[Peter Olivola]

What about lens protection?

And a much harder problem: lens cleaning during the session?

Brian

From years of viewing video to resolve on track incidents, that does not seem to be a problem.

[problemchild]

As a long time FV racer I will confirm that if you run a 25 min session in the pack, your lense will be covered in oil, assuming you remembered to clean it. FV racers tend to be thrifty too, so the lense is likely scratched, pitted, and very second hand before the oil film.

.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

What about lens protection?

And a much harder problem: lens cleaning during the session?

Brian

Really depends on mounting location.

I had a GoPro Session camera mounted on the side of the cockpit next to the rollbar and then lens would get destroyed every weekend until I made my own lexan lens (On the Session there is a flat clear lens in front of the actual lens).

The AIM GP I have now is mounted on top of the roll hoop and I've replaced it once - I think it had been on there 5+ years.

Not much you can do for cleaning during a session.

[FVRacer21]

Really depends on mounting location.

I had a GoPro Session camera mounted on the side of the cockpit next to the rollbar and then lens would get destroyed every weekend until I made my own lexan lens (On the Session there is a flat clear lens in front of the actual lens).

The AIM GP I have now is mounted on top of the roll hoop and I've replaced it once - I think it had been on there 5+ years.

Not much you can do for cleaning during a session.

The camera I just bought had that thin protective film over the housing lens - I did not even know it was there! Instant camera tearoff.

Steven Davis actually reaches up and wipes his during a race. If you use a Cambox inside the helmet - then it sees what you see. Greg is right though - I had a video that was ruined on the pace lap! But that is not the norm.

Most of the cheap cameras I assume have plastic lenses (in the protective housing). Toothpaste or commercial headlight polishing will bring it back to a point.

If you are SURE it is not going to rain, and if your camera can be mounted without the housing - you will get a better picture since the cameras have a glass or polycarbonate lens.

ChrisZ

[EYERACE]

Someone said to me > "Ya gotta have a camera" ...........the rules don't say that it's got to work

[Steve Demeter]

Someone said to me > "Ya gotta have a camera" ...........the rules don't say that it's got to work

EYE,

Read the fine print they say it gotta work

[Rick Iverson]

Greg;

I couldn’t agree with you more. Well said, Sir.

How did we ever manage to go racing without arm restraints, HNR devices, radios, fuel cells, intense rain lights ..... never mind enclosed trailers, awnings, RVs, etc? The famous Bruce and Denny show used open trailers, one behind a van and the other behind a station wagon. Always had room for their golf clubs. I expect their Can-Am budget was less than many club racers today, even with dollar adjustments.

I don't think the rule makers understand that the continual creep in costs is so harmful to entry level racers, never mind the senior drivers that make up much of the SCCA racing community and are trying to keep their racing going.

[Marshall Mauney]

Regionals and conference Majors became effective Jan. 1 of this year.

I know that added costs are a red button issue here.

Quick question:

What is the club's cost target for each of the classes? Initial/capital and operating?

Is cost and affordability part of the ongoing discussion, and if so is there any actual metric or just "concern"?

Does anyone at SCCA track the cost of prepping a car from scratch to evaluate what the cost is for a new member to enter the sport?

[FVRacer21]

Quick question:

What is the club's cost target for each of the classes? Initial/capital and operating?

Is cost and affordability part of the ongoing discussion, and if so is there any actual metric or just "concern"?

Does anyone at SCCA track the cost of prepping a car from scratch to evaluate what the cost is for a new member to enter the sport?

Marshall,

with many racing classes and organizations going to spec classes or budget caps, your post might be the most insightful ever. FV is not FA and GT1 is not SM.

In the past, having entry level classes like Formula Vee, F500, Showroom Stock and later IT and Spec Miata, was necessary to bring new people into the sport. Now cost is not even a factor, when I see Spec Miata cars showing up in tractor trailers. But this topic needs it’s own thread. It is not worth going to war over cameras, at least we have cheap options. On the other hand, see the rain light thread…..

ChrisZ