True Beginner/Newbie Help

[nautoncall]

I’ve spent hours on here after doing the basic Polecat Race school. I just did the one day of two day school. The cars are old Skip Barber Dodge cars that appear to be a mix between FF and FC because they have a small front and rear wing with 2.0l engine. By the end of the day we were at least doing point bys. Anyway I loved the open wheel and these cars had enough torque/acceleration out of corners and on straights to be really fun. I’ve done a couple street car track days and had a Miata that was a street car but set up dual purpose. It didn’t compare to this.

Anyway I currently don’t have any interest in racing (I know that may change) but getting on some tracks for seat time. So what options do I have? I know I need to probably go to another school somewhere if not back to polecat for the whole two day course. Primal racing has a 3 day school at Atlanta Motorsport Park but it’s in Radicals. Skip Barber has a Formula School at Road Atlanta but it’s in Formula 4 cars. I would love to get a car and get some seat time with an instructor. I keep reading don’t start with anything with wings (FC) but is that totally a crazy thought?? I’m in AL and have Atlanta and Barber near if not trying some AX in said car.

Thanks.

[S Lathrop]

I will suggest that you start out in a FV. A lot of people will poo poo this suggestion but think about it. Cost wise it is the least expensive class to race.

A FV is a lot slower that a FC or similar cars. They are not hard to drive. That being said, the people who have mastered the FVs are very good drivers. It is my experience that people who mastered FV are very good drivers in faster cars and have skills that other drivers seldom master.

A FV is the best car I know of to teach how to maintain momentum through a corner. And how to driver smoothly and accurately. And it is easy to over drive a FV and end up going slower.

I started in FV then moved up to FF and then to FSV. I raced both road courses and oval tracks. I also worked as a race engineer for nearly 30 years, again on both road courses and oval tracks.

Starting in a faster car, will make it harder to learn the skills that make for a good FV driver. Skills that are very important in faster cars but are very hard to learn.

One of the best Indy car drivers today started in FV.

[Jtovo]

Skip Barber has a great formula car program. First schools, then advanced lapping days. Then a great race series.

Terrific people.

[Steve Demeter]

What Steve said1!!!!

[TimH]

I'd say the Barber formula cars are far too sophisticated for someone just starting out. If I'm not mistaken, OTOH, their prepared street cars give you an opportunity to learn with an instructor in the seat beside you.

When it comes time to buy your own, Lathrop's advice is coming from a vast well of experience. That said, I think I had more fun starting with FF, see no need to graduate to anything faster (and more expensive).

[nautoncall]

Thanks. I’m open to anything. All the racing schools seem to use everything above FV. So aside from a racing school how do you get track time?? I appreciate anyone and everyone’s opinions.

[CARSHouston]

You stated this,
Anyway I currently don’t have any interest in racing (I know that may change) but getting on some tracks for seat time. So what options do I have?

If you are doing track days, I don't know of any that want Formula cars. If you want to run a formula car, you most likely will need to run with a racing organization, SCCA or one of the vintage groups.
Steve's advice to run an FV is sound as an inexpensive way of getting track time in a formula car, yes FF is faster, but more expensive, especially for crash repair.
Having driven cars for FV/FF to GT1 and after crashing my FF twice when I was starting out racing with little or no budget, I prefer cars with fenders. I can take them to ANY track day, they are as cheap to buy or build as most any formula car, cheaper to repair and far more resistant to on track damage than a formula car.
Good luck

[nautoncall]

Carshouston. Ironically before you posted that I thought the exact thing. So options?? I’d rather get a true race car. Spec racer ford?

I probably would like the competition in FV. I need to research my area for racing.

Thanks everyone

[Garey Guzman]

Thanks. I’m open to anything. All the racing schools seem to use everything above FV. So aside from a racing school how do you get track time?? I appreciate anyone and everyone’s opinions.

Schools use everything above an FV because wings are sexier, they can get more customers and there may be a chance that damage clauses give a little more income and work for the school emplyees!

Seat time without racing is tougher with a Formula car. As you mention, AX is an option. I never tried to just drive without getting the racing license but a thought that occured to me was that since Test Days are typically run by the tracks, can you join that part of a race weekend only? Others might know. That's typically on a Thursday or Friday, then you can spend a day or two chatting with other owner/drivers. Or you could even go through an SCCA-level school, qualify for a licence, then just do test days, maybe a Regional event once a year or every other year to keep the license.

If you develop the desire to race, which will mean more time on track, following Lathrop's suggestions are very good! I sat next to Carroll Smith when I finally got out of college and wanted to get my first race car. He was suggesting an FF to me but I kept bringing ads of FC's to show him. He finally said, "If you want to go faster in a straight line, get an FC. If you want to learn how to drive and be able to go fast in any car someday, get an FF". I bought a Swift DB1 soon after.

[kr]

[QUOTE=nautoncall;653151]Carshouston. Ironically before you posted that I thought the exact thing. So options?? I’d rather get a true race car. Spec racer ford?

Spec Racer Ford is a great class.

I started racing in IT and quickly moved to formula cars because they were so much better to drive than production based cars.

I dismissed the SRF as an option because I didn't think it was a "real race car"

When my son was old enough to start racing (14) we tried out SRF because of the competition you have at nearly any race. Turns out I really enjoy driving it too! You can run it with just about HPDE/track day organization and it's great fun to drive. We now own 2 of them.

The latest fully updated cars with a SADEV sequential can get a little pricey but you can find a reasonably priced SRF3 car with some patience.

Keith

[CSasfai]

I found that becoming a member of a driving club (i.e., motorsport country club) was the best option for me and my formula cars. As I believe someone already stated, most track day events don't accomodate open wheel cars. I also figured that I'd frequent the same couple or few tracks, so becoming a member was the way to go. I can also take multiple cars (or guests) and run in different groups (especially when it's raining) to keep it interesting and enjoyable.

[924RACR]

Carshouston. Ironically before you posted that I thought the exact thing. So options?? I’d rather get a true race car. Spec racer ford?

Yeah, SRF does work, but not dramatically faster than FV...

Prototypes (Stohrs, Radicals et al) are basically formula cars with fenders. Have you considered them? Not exactly a beginner proposition, but comparable in pace to an FC - perhaps with a little more experience?

Add: I jumped from ITB to DSR now P2. It's entirely doable.

Spring Mountain out by Vegas uses Radicals - but I recall there's one much closer to you also using Radicals for school. Maybe worth a try?

Ah, yes, Primal Racing School at AMP:
https://primalracing.com/3-day-racing-school/

[kr]

Yeah, SRF does work, but not dramatically faster than FV...

Significantly faster at most tracks, and pretty close to FF at some.

Road Atlanta ARRC Race results (best lap by winner):


FF 1:32.0
SRF3 1:35.5
FV 1:50.8

[mikey]

I went straight into winged cars from Corvettes. Started FE then PFM then F3000. FE is a Great starter car and you can get an older spec that hasn’t been updated to FE2 for around $20-$25k now.

[kr]

The original Formula Mazda is also a great starter open wheel car.

The problem still remains that you have fewer options to get (non racing) seat time compared to a closed wheel car.

[JoshuaJustice]

Yeah, SRF does work, but not dramatically faster than FV...

SRF is significantly faster than FV. I own a SRF and I've driven a Vee (three of them, in fact!), and they're not even in the same universe on speed. A Vee is one of the slowest things you can get on track, a SRF rivals actual sports cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkwLYMmDDcI

[TimH]

a SRF rivals actual sports cars.

Because it is one. Very comparable in performance to the detuned FFs that used to be the norm at schools, and more setup flexibility than FV.

[Extreme1]

I started in a PFM. I found an organization that does track days at Willow Springs one day every other month, for $190 for the day. I can also pay a lot more and just show up at Willow Springs and pay to drive my car. I was intimidated by the car at first but spent a lot of time talking to people and looking at their cars at the track. Years prior I raced a Kart on a dirt oval and on asphalt. I also raced an off-road buggy several times in the Baja 1000, so I’m not a beginner to racing cars.

Whatever car you choose, have someone familiar with that type of car go over it with you, and meet you at the track. It will make it a lot less intimidating. My first day on the track I made sure I was the only one there. Good thing because I did a slow speed spin into the dirt. Go slow and work your way up to going faster.

[HB280ZT]

What Steve said x 2!!!


As a FV driver I like the close racing that does not require beating and banging of body parts, not good when racing open wheel cars. Also I believe you learn how to be to a better driver being in a slower car on the track full of fast cars. As you have to pay attention more to what is going on around you, while still racing the other Vees.


I have taken my Vee to track days at the FIRM in north central Florida several times with no issues. Just have to ask the club/track if they will allow it.


A major factor is that a vee is cheaper to buy and run then any other car! And as you learn to drive a Vee better you can always move up to a faster car.


Just my .02 as a Formula Vee driver and as a shameless plug for myself. https://www.youtube.com/@harrybradley2476


R/--
Harry
FV#77 CFR

[Spengo]

Don't forget go karts. Startup costs are extremely cheap with go karts, there's a lot less of the extra stuff you need to buy apart from the car itself to get rolling. They can be stood up on the rear bumper to store very small and can be towed on a lawn mower trailer behind your daily driver sedan or stuck in the bed of a pickup. I got a very similar momentum conservation experience to FV drivers starting with sprint racing 4-stroke karts and then doing road racing with shifters. Pretty respectable lap times and you can get a heck of a lot of seat time for your money in a go kart.

[EYERACE]

Older FF cars are called Club Ford ,,,,,class CF .......think FF but on a budget.....so go CF !!! Spec tires (so you save on the budget) and one can always take a CF to Vintage.
FV is a great car but the current thing about FV is it's a class for those who care to continue to run FV....I do not consider FV a class for those who care to step up later....opinions may differ
Do not go F500 / F600 - there's not much about chassis set up you will take with you to other classes
SRF and Radicals and such are fine if you want a full bodied formula car....because that's essentially what they are....a formula car with a full body so you can't see your front wheels.
FC and FE2 and even FM are likely a little too fast for now. FM is fast in a straight line but you gotta really know how to make the car slide to be fast in the corners. At least one thing to say about FM is they're built a little more like a tank than some other open wheel cars

[nautoncall]

Thanks everyone. I'm open to FV and someone on this forum who is AL has reached out so I hope to connect and get some help. Also, I understand FV runs with all the open wheel formula cars here in local SCCA club. P1, P2, FA, FX, FE, FE2, FS, F5, FF, FV, FC, FST, CF. Yes cars like Radicals sound really cool to learn on but don't want to learn on something I can't purchase, plus, that's a lot of power!!! SRF still sounds like it may be a good car because I can then go to HPDE and open track days, but then again it seems like I would be required to have an instructor. So going to these race schools, Barber, Lucas, Primal, etc seems to give a Novice SCCA license but does that allow me to go to HPDE and such solo driver?

Keep the suggestions coming as I'm taking in everyone's vast knowledge. Also, from looking at my local AL SCCA chapter, it seems they mostly do Autocross more than anything. NASA has one race in the summer at Barber. These are the categories

• Racing
• Time Trial
• HPDE 1 (novice, with an instructor, limited passing) (HPDE-Intro will not be offered at the event)
• HPDE 2 (intermediate, solo driving, limited passing)
• HPDE 3 (advanced, solo driving, passing anywhere with a point by)
• HPDE4 (advanced, usually for instructors or those with 20+ events, passing anywhere with a point by)
• Supersize for TT (for racers who also want to participate in Time Trial)
• Supersize for HPDE (for Time Trial participants or racers who want additional seat time in HPDE)
• Annual Tech
• Transponder Rental
• Waiting List

And on the Racing category I don't see or recognize any class that's open wheel. All this is confusing!! Thanks again everyone.
https://members.drivenasa.com/events/4154

[JoshuaJustice]

Some key confusion here: You don't need a SCCA license to go race NASA. And in NASA, their ladder system takes you from HPDE 1 through Time Trial and then racing (if you don't have a license from some org they recognize - they do recognize SCCA) so you could do HPDE with them with no prior experience.

As I understand it, NASA doesn't do open-wheel or prototypes except in the Unlimited category; they do recognize the Legends car and the Thunder Roadster though, which are primarily oval cars that are relatively symmetric and more sensible to take onto road courses than most other oval cars, and are both somewhat "openish" wheel in nature.

SCCA also has a race weekend a year at Barber. I know the southeast division runs one, it's on the schedule here: http://sedivracing.com/road-racing

The Barber calendar as a whole is here: https://barberracingevents.com/upcoming-events/

Realistically, you aren't going to get a lot of racing at Barber unless you buy a lot of cars to run in different orgs; if racing is your goal with one car, or driving a formula car is your goal, you are going to need to consider tow options for getting to events in Georgia, NOLA, and elsewhere. If you just want to get a lot of time on track and don't care about wheel-to-wheel racing but do want to stick to just Barber because it's your local track, then it seems that Chin Track Days, PCA (they don't require you to have a Porsche for HPDE), and the handful of other track day orgs that rent Barber would be how you could maximize track time, which means something with doors and a roof and probably a passenger seat for the instructor. (Though renting is an option as well.)

So first figure out what your goal is, and then pick a car (and organizations) that best suits that goal given your location and willingness to travel.

Once you get your foot wet in the hobby and talk to people you will get a better picture of what your options are. You may find it worthwhile to go to the NASA event and SCCA event at Barber this year even without a car just so you can talk to people face to face and see who's actually renting cars in the area (in my experience, the online directories for car rentals are very outdated).

[billtebbutt]

Don't forget go karts. Startup costs are extremely cheap with go karts, there's a lot less of the extra stuff you need to buy apart from the car itself to get rolling. They can be stood up on the rear bumper to store very small and can be towed on a lawn mower trailer behind your daily driver sedan or stuck in the bed of a pickup. I got a very similar momentum conservation experience to FV drivers starting with sprint racing 4-stroke karts and then doing road racing with shifters. Pretty respectable lap times and you can get a heck of a lot of seat time for your money in a go kart.

What he said. Within 40 mins of where we live is an amazing karting facility - my 17 year old daughter is a member. For the life of me I can't think of a cheaper, better way to get seat time. The track has something like 34 different layouts (half of which are the same layout run counter-race every other week). Birel karts, Honda 5hp motors, and all you do is pay a membership fee plus about $C75 per evening of racing. Arrive and drive 5 nights a week if you wish. Classed by weight. Plenty of opportunities for coaching and teaching lessons if you wish. And you can be driving against anyone from a 14 year old to an 84 year old - once the helmet goes on, nobody knows/cares about age or gender.

So, so many lessons she has learned. Drafting, passing, planning, smooth hands, Scandinavian flick, how to maintain momentum, etc. We spend more on gas getting there and back than on a night of racing. And we never have to lift a wrench.

Campbell Motorsport, in Ancaster Ontario. Some fancy pants Indy driver has a hand in it , as did Ron Fellows for a number of years (and, a surprising number of accomplished drivers have cut their teeth there over the years).

www.canadianminiindy.com

Look for something like this near you perhaps?

best,
bt

[nautoncall]

I talked to someone in my state a couple hours from me. They prep, maintain and rent SRFs. Their cars seem to be top of the line with sequential gearbox etc. Anyway they are going to be at Barber with the Porsche club so I may go see them. He did recommend I go to some racing school to at least get my novice license which I don’t disagree with. PCA has a school at Barber than the Primal Racing at AMP.

Am I wrong…. There is no way to race even FV without attending some race school??

To the last message. Atl Motorsport Park is the only private track nearby which is 4-5 hours from me and joining is rather steep.

Thanks again.

[Extreme1]

In your original post you mentioned that you don’t have any interest in racing. This is a good idea until you get a lot of seat time, there’s just too much going on in a race. I’m a beginner too and have done 5 track days in my PFM. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the first track day I made sure i was the only car on the track because I wanted to drive at my own pace and make sure I didn’t hurt anyone else by making a mistake.

I think you should focus just on seat time on track days. Maybe go to races to watch and talk to people, but from my experience, on race days the drivers and pit crews are too busy to talk to newbies. It’s way more relaxed on just track days and everyone’s more willing to spend time with and help the new guy.

[janton9736]

What’s been the story, when I started 5 years ago it was not really active but now it is? Similar story to the Bondurant School?

Skip Barber has a great formula car program. First schools, then advanced lapping days. Then a great race series.

Terrific people.

[Jtovo]

What’s been the story, when I started 5 years ago it was not really active but now it is? Similar story to the Bondurant School?

A couple of brothers from the east coast bought it and have really been working on building it. While we are not currently running the series, I would highly recommend it.

Wheaton? I am just off Butterfield Rd.

[Rich_G_SC]

Hi,

If you're looking for track time I'd suggest an SCCA school which will kill 2 birds with one stone. First, they are cheap ~$400 in my region and offer lots of track time over a couple of days. You may or may not get much actual driving skill instruction but you will get safety instruction which I believe is very valuable. Since you don't own a car this opens up the opportunity to rent whatever class you'd like to try - downside is that's added cost. You also need your own personal safety kit - something you wouldn't need again if you eventually decide to track a production type car. Second you get a provisional license out of it so if you want to road race you're a step closer. A full SCCA license will get you in to most club racing events - SCCA or non-SCCA.

I'm in FV with Driverz Cup in the southeast and this would be an option for you if you want to race. VeeTen is in Alabama and he races with us (mostly in Georgia) and Challenge Cup up north. I originally considered vintage FV because I was concerned about aggressive wheel-to-wheel action but settled on DZC which has a no-contact rule (similar to CCS). It has been a great decision for me - much bigger fields than SCCA or vintage FV in my area and a great group of friends.

If you're sticking to track days only then I agree with a lot of other posters who mentioned that a formula car limits your options. Carolina Motorsports Park runs an OW track day group every once in a great while but close wheel groups very frequently. If you stated your budget I missed it but Spec Miata would be good for track days - or get a Miata and gradually add the SM pieces.

I will say that it seems to me like track days will eventually get boring. Track Attack I believe has some timed events which may be better. AutoX was fun for a while but I quickly realized there are some really good drivers with high end stuff in my class and I just didn't think it was worth that kind of time/$ investment to run in a parking lot. I like running with DZC, good fit for me - YMMV.

Best of luck,
Rich

[RAdkins]

I'm also from the Huntsville, AL area. I will be attending the Vintage Racer Groups (VRG) school in May. I believe there are sill spots open. This good thing is it's super affordable at about $600 vs $2k+ for SCCA schools. Then that same weekend will be the Jefferson 500 race. So a full week of racing.

[Garey Guzman]

I'm also from the Huntsville, AL area. I will be attending the Vintage Racer Groups (VRG) school in May. I believe there are sill spots open. This good thing is it's super affordable at about $600 vs $2k+ for SCCA schools. Then that same weekend will be the Jefferson 500 race. So a full week of racing.

SCCA schools aren't $2k. There are private schools that qualify for SCCA License requirements that might cost that much. For example, in 10 days, the SCCA school at Roebling Road is $450 and the school at Summit in Mid-March is $470.