shipping firebottle

[swiftdrivr]

Since the SCCA says I have to recertify my unused fire-bottle every 2 years, I am trying to mail a full, unused fire-bottle to SPA in Indianapolis. The USPS says they don't do that. UPS says they don't handle hazardous material. Fed-ex requires me to hire a "licensed and trained hazardous materials packager" before they will allow their driver to transport this horrifically dangerous bottle that I personally [dare-devil that I am] routinely transport at high speed around bumpy race-tracks with no special packaging at all. { I do wear a fire-suit when I do that, so...].

Does anyone know of a reasonable, not ridiculously expensive way to get my fire-bottle shipped?

[R. Pare]

Easy enough to look it up:

https://www.shippingschool.com/can-i...ers-with-usps/

[Nardi]

I've shipped them via Greyhound before.

[JoshuaJustice]

Easy enough to look it up:

https://www.shippingschool.com/can-i...ers-with-usps/

Makes sense, you have to apply the special surface shipping only label so they don't put it in the cargo hold of a plane where it's more likely to burst.

Probably the employees at the UPS/FedEx shops don't know about this thing because it doesn't come up all that often. (Consumers aren't often shipping the full soda fizzer bottles around, and the SodaStream/SodaSense people aren't dealing with these local shipping shops.)

[lowside67]

Since the SCCA says I have to recertify my unused fire-bottle every 2 years, I am trying to mail a full, unused fire-bottle to SPA in Indianapolis. The USPS says they don't do that. UPS says they don't handle hazardous material. Fed-ex requires me to hire a "licensed and trained hazardous materials packager" before they will allow their driver to transport this horrifically dangerous bottle that I personally [dare-devil that I am] routinely transport at high speed around bumpy race-tracks with no special packaging at all. { I do wear a fire-suit when I do that, so...].

Does anyone know of a reasonable, not ridiculously expensive way to get my fire-bottle shipped?

When I bought my car, I asked if the extinguisher was in date, and was told it was good - but it was expired. When I inquired, they said SCCA does not require them to be within date. All I see is that they should be "serviced per recommendations" - not sure what this means?

-Mark

[lance3556]

Dig into the details of that web site and you see the packaging requirements. A little more daunting than "easy" button. So after completing in triplicate the "dangerous goods" multiple page form, you have to package as stated here:

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52...6.htm#ep999703

Read thru that , there will be a test later.

This part of the Rule book is the least transparent. Sounds easy, but but least in-forced and very few send the extinguisher out for re-certification. Fire bottle will not service anything over 6 years old. It would be nice if the fire extinguisher company would send out a "shipping Kit" to allow racers to send them for service. good luck with your endeavor, may be better off buying a new bottle.

[Mike B]

Since the SCCA says I have to recertify my unused fire-bottle every 2 years,

I'm having trouble finding this requirement in the GCR. What section did you see this? My son's FC got an annual tech last weekend and they didn't ask about any fire bottle dates.

[swiftdrivr]

I'm having trouble finding this requirement in the GCR. What section did you see this? My son's FC got an annual tech last weekend and they didn't ask about any fire bottle dates.

9.3.22. FIRE SYSTEM
All cars shall be equipped with an On-Board Fire System except T3, T4, STL, Spec Miata, B-Spec, and
Improved Touring.

A. On-Board Fire System Requirements

It is recommended that all other cars employ onboard fire systems that meet the following requirements:
• Systems certified to SFI specification 17.1 or 17.2, or
• Those listed by the FIA on Technical List No. 16

The following information must be visible of the unit:
• Certification label
• Capacity
• Type of extinguishing agent
• Weight, or volume, of the extinguishing agent

Cars shall meet the following regardless of registration date:

1. The fire system cylinder shall be securely mounted in such a manner that it can be checked during
a technical inspection and may be removed for weighing periodically for compliance to full weight
shown on the cylinder. (Weight is without valve assembly.)

2. Manual or automatic release is allowed. The release mechanism shall be within reach of the driver
when belted in the car.

3. All on-board fire systems shall be identified with a circle “E” decal.

a. In GT and Production cars, two circle “E” decals may be required–one at the release location
and the second on the outside bodywork in line with or as near to the release location as
possible.

b. In Formula and Sports Racing cars, a circle “E” decal shall be located on the outside bodywork
as near to the release location as possible.

4. There shall be a minimum of two nozzle locations–one in the driver’s compartment and one in
either the engine area or the fuel cell area. The nozzles shall be suitable for the type of extinguishing
agent used.

5. The firing safety pin(s) shall be removed from all on-board fire systems prior to going on track. It is
recommended that a warning tag be attached to the safety pin to remind the driver to remove the
safety pin before entering the racing surface.

6. All fire systems shall be serviced according to manufacturer’s specifications.


SARRC has made me pull my firebottle more than once in the past, so it seems this is both mandatory and enforced. If it isn't, then I will save myself a couple of hundred dollars and a bunch of senseless hassle. This is from the 2020 GCR. Maybe it has changed?

[lowside67]

9.3.22. FIRE SYSTEM
All cars shall be equipped with an On-Board Fire System except T3, T4, STL, Spec Miata, B-Spec, and
Improved Touring.

A. On-Board Fire System Requirements

It is recommended that all other cars employ onboard fire systems that meet the following requirements:
• Systems certified to SFI specification 17.1 or 17.2, or
• Those listed by the FIA on Technical List No. 16

The following information must be visible of the unit:
• Certification label
• Capacity
• Type of extinguishing agent
• Weight, or volume, of the extinguishing agent

Cars shall meet the following regardless of registration date:

1. The fire system cylinder shall be securely mounted in such a manner that it can be checked during
a technical inspection and may be removed for weighing periodically for compliance to full weight
shown on the cylinder. (Weight is without valve assembly.)

2. Manual or automatic release is allowed. The release mechanism shall be within reach of the driver
when belted in the car.

3. All on-board fire systems shall be identified with a circle “E” decal.

a. In GT and Production cars, two circle “E” decals may be required–one at the release location
and the second on the outside bodywork in line with or as near to the release location as
possible.

b. In Formula and Sports Racing cars, a circle “E” decal shall be located on the outside bodywork
as near to the release location as possible.

4. There shall be a minimum of two nozzle locations–one in the driver’s compartment and one in
either the engine area or the fuel cell area. The nozzles shall be suitable for the type of extinguishing
agent used.

5. The firing safety pin(s) shall be removed from all on-board fire systems prior to going on track. It is
recommended that a warning tag be attached to the safety pin to remind the driver to remove the
safety pin before entering the racing surface.

6. All fire systems shall be serviced according to manufacturer’s specifications.


SARRC has made me pull my firebottle more than once in the past, so it seems this is both mandatory and enforced. If it isn't, then I will save myself a couple of hundred dollars and a bunch of senseless hassle. This is from the 2020 GCR. Maybe it has changed?

I agree that "shall be serviced to manufacturer's specifications" is in the section that is not optional and to my read, it is clear that the bottle must be in-date since all the manufacturers want them recertified. What I don't understand is why this rule doesnt seem to be enforced?

I was pissed when my car arrived for this reason as the rule appears clear and it cost me another $600 for a new system since I couldn't get mine serviced.

-Mark

[FVRacer21]

Find a local SPA dealer and maybe you can drop it off. https://spatechnique.com/pages/service-centers-dealers

I just brough mine down to Stable Energies in NJ, but I had accidentally set it off so it was empty - I could have sent it with no issues as an empty cannister.

Since the two units I bought where shipped to me (charged) by UPS ground, there has to be a way of doing this.

I would contact SPA for shipping instructions, or they can do an "Call Tag" and do all the paperwork on their end - you just box the unit and wait for the label(s) to come.

On the note of inconsistent rules - there is the same problem with seat belts depending on which label you have. The tech guys I have spoken to feel caught in a catch 22 as they are asked in interpret what should be clear rules.

For fire bottles, because it is only "recommended" (which I believe was changed from required) many tech inspectors will ask to look at the gauge, showing pressure, and if you have proof of weight (I weigh mine on a scale and take a picture). they let it go. Since a fire bottle can only be destructive tested, you could have a brand new bottle that can fail (Hmm Musk SpaceX anyone?) What constitutes service? If they have tools that can recapture the material and then repressurize like air conditioning units, that would be nice to know.

ChrisZ

[swiftdrivr]

Just spoke with crater-and-freighters. Estimate of $400 to $600 dollars to ship a fire extinguisher. $150 just for the paperwork alone. This is why people leave the sport. If there was any reasonable risk that the bottle was bad, or even dangerous to ship, I'd be okay with it, but this is ridiculous. The truck that freights this dangerous piece of equipment probably has a fire extinguisher mounted [unpackaged] in the cab. My RV has two.

[Rick Kirchner]

I'll get on my soapbox here that it is unconscionable for ALL the major sanctioning bodies to approve these devices with that caveat, when it requires shipping of hazmat.

What this effectively does, is stack up a lot of good usable hardware in the corner while people buy new.

Given all the stuff on these cars that we maintain, there's no reason we shouldn't be able to do this task with the exception of the ****ty design of the bottles. Proper design of the bottle should be such that the pressure can be verified AND the valve can be removed, cleaned, and cycled by the owner, without losing pressure. You do this by building the gauge into the bottle, not the valve.

The bottle is already made up of 2-3 weldments, this just adds a bucket for the gauge to sit in, as well as a gauge design that can be tightened from above.

That said, if its a SPA bottle, they have a lot of dealers and with the exception of the great plains and Oregon/NorCal, looks like a 3-4 hour drive would get you to one.

Then again, has anyone seen the manufacturer's specifications? If it doesn't require disassembly, recovery, actuation, fill, and re-assembly (in other words, a visual and cleaning) then you could say "I did it to their specifications".

[Mike B]

I still don't see where the SCCA requires a recert every 2 years. I seriously doubt that every SCCA tech inspector is going to know every manufacturer's specifications. That's a vaguely written rule, possibly intentionally, which is probably why it's loosely enforced.

[lance3556]

I bought a new firebottle system last year, the size changed and I did not notice, so it will not fit in my application. There is service information attached to the bottle.
So, I have a nearly new never used fire bottle that I can only sell local. It is a very "questionable" process for re-certification. I also have perfectly good belts that have seen sun less than 300 hrs that I just payed 500.00 to replace for my hopefully 1 race weekend I was planning on attending this year...Unless they check the date on my fire bottle....

[Rondo]

Somewhere on Apexspeed is a thread that tells you exactly how to do it...you need the right labels. It also listed the number to call at UPS if problems. When I went to UPS they said no way, I dialed the number and handed them the phone. There were a series of OK, ok....and voila. It was shipped and relatively cheap. I looked for the thread for a little while and did not find it...will keep looking when i have time

[John Bach]

I wrote that thread with the instructions but I cannot find it. So here are the instructions.

UPS HAZ-MAT 800-554-9964

• Fire extinguisher shipping
• Must be under 241 PSI
• Must be under 66 pounds
• Must have Ground Limited Quantity Label on Package
• Reference UPS Regulations 49CFR Section 173.309
• Get Confirmation Number from UPS
• UN 1044

You must take it to a main UPS center. You cannot take it to a UPS store. I have done this several times. Here is the label you must have on the package.

[BrianT1]

I still don't see where the SCCA requires a recert every 2 years. I seriously doubt that every SCCA tech inspector is going to know every manufacturer's specifications. That's a vaguely written rule, possibly intentionally, which is probably why it's loosely enforced.

Mike, is the bottle in Rocks car an original Halon system? If so you dont need to get it serviced. Those are basically grandfathered in.

If you buy the new NOVEC systems, those have to be serviced every two years. Its a joke. They literally open it, take out the contents, then replace and charge you a fee.

Brian

[Mike B]

Mike, is the bottle in Rocks car an original Halon system? If so you dont need to get it serviced. Those are basically grandfathered in.

It's a NOVEC.

[FVRacer21]

From the 3m FAQ page

Q: What is the shelf life of 3M™ Novec™ 1230 fluid?
A: Based on accelerated aging using the Van’t Hoff method, 3M believes 3M™ Novec™ 1230 fluid will perform its
intended function for up to thirty (30) years when used as a component in appropriate, well designed fire
protection systems. 3M does not provide a warranty for extended life periods in fire suppression system cylinders
since the actual life of the fluid can be significantly influenced by factors outside of 3M's control, including the
design of the system, integrity of the cylinders, handling and storage conditions. This confirmation of shelf life
does not modify our standard product warranty, which is documented on the Technical Data Sheet for 3M™
Novec™ 1230 fluid available at 3M.com/Novec1230. As always, the user must evaluate the product to determine
if it is appropriate for a particular application.

From the SFI 17.2 specs

2.7 Single Seat Open Wheel Rear Engine On Board Fire Suppression Systems
shall be inspected for recertification at least every two years after the date of
original certification or as specified by the certifying manufacturer. When a
unit is determined to be acceptable for continued service, a new
conformance label marked with the inspection date shall be used. In-field
recertification is permitted, but ONLY by the original manufacturer or its
authorized agent.* Mailing of certification labels to customers is strictly
prohibited. Systems shall have a maximum field service life of 6 years from
the original date of installation. At the end of the 6-year period, all systems
must be returned to the manufacturer or a certified recycling service center
for lawful disassembly, recycling and decommissioning. No system may be
refilled more than 6 times during its 6-year field service life.

*Gives me the impression it is a visual inspection and a new label issued.

So it is not necessarily the manufacturer who is mandating the reinspection, but the SFI Specs (which are only recommended)

Again, this puts the tech inspectors in a perilous situation, trying to read between the lines.

Personal opinion, a fire system should last as long as a helmet - 10 years, if the owner maintains to the manufacturer standards.

ChrisZ

[FVRacer21]

Also from the SPA web site:

*NOTE* ALL fire systems are filled to order! This means it could take between 2-10 business days for your order to ship (dependent on the amount of orders queued at the time of your order). And, ALL fire systems MUST ship via Ground, due to them being pressurized.

According to 3M Novec 1230 is safer that aerosol paint cans - which ship vis UPS ground all the time.

You cannot ship UPS 1st, 2nd or 3rd day, as they may at some point get on a plane.

Also I wonder if the dealers ship back to SPA for refills - hence the delay, or maybe even for inspection?

ChrisZ

[FVRacer21]

And just when you though it was safe to keep your fire bottle for a while:

How PFAS is Affecting the Fire Suppression Industry

Special hazard fire suppression systems have been affected by new legislation aimed at restricting and banning the use of PFAS. In fact, many very effective special hazard fire suppression “clean agents” have met their end due to environmental and health concerns. The manufacture of Halon 1301, one of the earliest and most effective clean agents, was banned in 1994 because it was classified as an ozone-depleting chemical. The manufacturing of FM200, the most popular Halon replacement, began a phase-out in 2022 for being identified as a global warming agent. And in 2025 the production of Novec 1230 will be discontinued by 3M. Finally, AFFF firefighting foams have been severely restricted or outright banned in most areas.


Ultimately, the special hazard fire suppression industry is facing another major setback as they continue to search for a clean agent that is effective and easy to use. The agent also needs to be safe for use around humans without having a significant negative impact on the environment.


Only time will tell what is next for special hazard suppression agents as the fire suppression industry continues its research and development into appropriate alternatives.

Maybe we should just go back to carrying a portable fire extinguisher in the car...

Or invest in a high speed fire fighting truck for the track....

ChrisZ

[Rick Kirchner]

I wrote a SPA dealer this morning.

They won't touch halon.

For the other stuff, service entails emptying the bottle, filling the bottle, and putting a new sticker on.

[lance3556]

Exactly what Chris said, my argument is SFI rating is "recommended". So after the first 2 years of a new bottle, it will not meet the SFI spec, but is still a functional system per the rules.

[DaveW]

9.3.22. FIRE SYSTEM
All cars shall be equipped with an On-Board Fire System except T3, T4, STL, Spec Miata, B-Spec, and
Improved Touring.

A. On-Board Fire System Requirements

It is recommended that all other cars employ onboard fire systems that meet the following requirements:
• Systems certified to SFI specification 17.1 or 17.2, or
• Those listed by the FIA on Technical List No. 16

The following information must be visible of the unit:
• Certification label
• Capacity
• Type of extinguishing agent
• Weight, or volume, of the extinguishing agent

Cars shall meet the following regardless of registration date:

1. The fire system cylinder shall be securely mounted in such a manner that it can be checked during
a technical inspection and may be removed for weighing periodically for compliance to full weight
shown on the cylinder. (Weight is without valve assembly.)

2. Manual or automatic release is allowed. The release mechanism shall be within reach of the driver
when belted in the car.

3. All on-board fire systems shall be identified with a circle “E” decal.

a. In GT and Production cars, two circle “E” decals may be required–one at the release location
and the second on the outside bodywork in line with or as near to the release location as
possible.

b. In Formula and Sports Racing cars, a circle “E” decal shall be located on the outside bodywork
as near to the release location as possible.

4. There shall be a minimum of two nozzle locations–one in the driver’s compartment and one in
either the engine area or the fuel cell area. The nozzles shall be suitable for the type of extinguishing
agent used.

5. The firing safety pin(s) shall be removed from all on-board fire systems prior to going on track. It is
recommended that a warning tag be attached to the safety pin to remind the driver to remove the
safety pin before entering the racing surface.

6. All fire systems shall be serviced according to manufacturer’s specifications.

SARRC has made me pull my firebottle more than once in the past, so it seems this is both mandatory and enforced. If it isn't, then I will save myself a couple of hundred dollars and a bunch of senseless hassle. This is from the 2020 GCR. Maybe it has changed?

The April 2023 GCR reads the same, as far as I can tell.

Mike, is the bottle in Rocks car an original Halon system? If so you don't need to get it serviced. Those are basically grandfathered in...

These seem to say systems that did not initially require recertification are not required to recertify now. However, if the manufacturer says it should be periodically recertified, then that is required per the GCR.

IMO, this periodic recertification requirement is a direct result of the lawsuit-prone society in which we live. As far as SFI and manufacturers are concerned, rules and short-interval recertifications are also an income stream.

[toolo4sno]

Since the SCCA says I have to recertify my unused fire-bottle every 2 years, I am trying to mail a full, unused fire-bottle to SPA in Indianapolis. The USPS says they don't do that. UPS says they don't handle hazardous material. Fed-ex requires me to hire a "licensed and trained hazardous materials packager" before they will allow their driver to transport this horrifically dangerous bottle that I personally [dare-devil that I am] routinely transport at high speed around bumpy race-tracks with no special packaging at all. { I do wear a fire-suit when I do that, so...].

Does anyone know of a reasonable, not ridiculously expensive way to get my fire-bottle shipped?

Has there been any further clarity on this? I am running into the same issue even using the recommendations in Post #16. UPS requires me to be certified in Regulations 49CFR Section 173.309, not just reference them in packing.

Do the bottles get emptied and filled when recertified? If so, can I just drain it here and ship it empty?

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

UPS HAZ-MAT 800-554-9964

• Fire extinguisher shipping
• Must be under 241 PSI
• Must be under 66 pounds
• Must have Ground Limited Quantity Label on Package
• Reference UPS Regulations 49CFR Section 173.309
• Get Confirmation Number from UPS
• UN 1044

[John Bach]

The first time I sent a bottle I called the HAZ-MAT number and explained what I was doing. They gave me a confirmation number. That and having them call when I was at the facility got it through. Remember you must go to a trucking depot to do this.

[toolo4sno]

The first time I sent a bottle I called the HAZ-MAT number and explained what I was doing. They gave me a confirmation number. That and having them call when I was at the facility got it through. Remember you must go to a trucking depot to do this.

I was calling ahead of time at home and maybe it was how I worded it. The first call yesterday wasn't a deal breaker they asked for the UN # which I didn't have at the time. I saw you listed it and tried again today. That's when they said I had to be certified in hazardous material shipping.

I will try to ship it at a trucking depot and call them then. I have the black and white decal from another shipment so I am good there.

[Charles Warner]

I am not seeing where the Club requires "recertification." Only that the bottle is "serviced" per the manufacturer. To me that means on initial servicing and anytime it is serviced after discharge. Of course, if said manufacturer states that the bottle must be re-serviced every two years, then all bets are off. Discharge the damn thing and send in a brown box.

[toolo4sno]

I was able to ship a full fire bottle yesterday.

I took it to a UPS Customer Center. I said I needed to ship a full extinguisher bottle. Initially the guy behind the counter said he didn't think they did that, but he called a UPS number for assistance. Turns out he called the same Hazmat number I had been calling. While on the phone he asked whether the psi was under 241psi (my tank is 8bar=116psi). He noted my black and white sticker. I had already placed a black and white sticker on it pillaged from another incoming box. He created a ground shipper tag and sent it on it's way. No additional cost from what I could tell either; it was $17 (MI to GA).

[John Bach]

Glad it finally worked.

[swiftdrivr]

Glad it finally worked.

I called FEDEX hazardous material number, and the not very nice lady basically said "packaged by a professional company or else." Fortunately, SPA sent me a shipping lab l and I sent it fedex box-drop at Walgreens. No issue so far, but it hasn't arrived yet. We will see.

[FVRacer21]

Just saw this:

---------------------------------------------
Pegasus no longer sells or services
AFFF fire suppression systems
After many years of selling and servicing AFFF (foam) fire suppression systems, rising insurance costs and more stringent regulations have suddenly forced us to drop this product line.
We no longer have any AFFF fire systems or AFFF fluid in stock, and we are not able to service any AFFF systems.
If your AFFF fire suppression system is due for service, we will be happy to help you find an alternative service station. Please do not ship your AFFF bottle to us for service. Any AFFF bottles sent to us for service will be returned unserviced at the customer's expense.
We are still able to sell and service SPA and Lifeline fire systems originally filled with Novec 1230.

If you need to replace an older system, consider one of our environmentally-friendly Novec 1230 Fire Suppression Systems.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Novec 1230 is being discontinued by 3m in 2025


When I spoke to the dealer, they recycle the 1230, so recertification should not be a problem for a while.....

Surely more to come...


ChrisZ

[Steve Demeter]

With all the stuff about AFF contaminating groundwater, you knew this was coming.

Should have kept Halon around.

The amount of global warming gas it contributed had to be minuscule.

Just MHO

[swiftdrivr]

I did get my bottle through using SPA's label. Looks like next time I will not need to ship it, as they are discontinuing the product. Maybe we can all pack rapid-deploying wet blankets for fire suppression instead of hazardous materials. It could be like a drag-chute. Cheap and self-servicable.