How do you start your car?

[Goallie11]

Starting the car for the first time this year got me thinking. What do you do to start your car?

On a normal start up, I pump the throttle a couple times to get fuel into my carb, spin the engine for a few seconds with ignition off, then turn the ignition on and fire it up.

With the first start for the year and first oil change, I run the starter long enough to build oil pressure to ensure oil is in the whole system and I don't have any leaks, then I start it. This made me think, maybe I should be building oil pressure before starting the car, just to reduce wear a bit when it does start.

[TimH]

This made me think, maybe I should be building oil pressure before starting the car, just to reduce wear a bit when it does start.

If it's been sitting more than a week, I build oil pressure twice (plugs out to reduce stress on the starter), then let it trickle down a few minutes. Really careful people pressure the oil with hydraulics rather than the starter.

[Earley Motorsports]

What you are doing sounds about right. I don’t know what oil you use. I use synthetic which really helps on initial fire up. But hey I’m not a professional engine builder, just my 2c.

[Spengo]

Wait for oil pressure is what I was told.
1. plugs out, no compression to reduce starter wear
2. jumper battery attached
3. spin starter in 2-3 second bursts until I see oil pressure on my display, all it needs is a positive flicker
4. plugs back in
5. fire it up

[Lotus7]

1. plugs out, no compression to reduce starter wear

Perhaps more importantly, plugs out reduces compression forces going down the conrod into the "not-yet-lubricated" journal bearings

[Hawke]

I’ll go out on a limb here. I suggest that cranking the engine over to build up pressure is a nonsense. Is there any evidence that it actually prevents any damage?

In over 50 years experience with all sorts of machinery, lots of which had been idle for many years, I have never seen any damage caused to those engines. Thousands of engines are started every day around the world that have been idle for some time.

In all the years I spent as an application engineer for Detroit Diesel, I cant recall any GM produced service advice regarding starting engines that may have sat for many years.

When I installed another engine into my Formula Ford a few months ago, I had a look at the main and rod bearings before I installed it. It last ran 6 years ago on running in mineral oil. There was plenty of oil on everything - journals, cam, bores etc.

Perhaps others have different experiences. Please discuss.

[DaveW]

The first time I start my racecar after installation or oil change, I make sure there is oil at the oil pump inlet, then start normally. Otherwise, I just start it as I do everything else - start and run gently for a few seconds, then proceed as normal. Synthetic multi-grade (as light weight as practical) oil helps get oil flow going quickly.

[problemchild]

Is there any evidence that it actually prevents any damage?

Add it to the list of things that conscientious technical people do based on theoretical projections rather than provable evidence.

Since we have modern engines with good starters (and booster batteries) I do generally turn it over to get oil pressure before actually starting. I would never take the time to remove spark plugs however.

[Vne165]

Hawke,
Agree.

I also have a background in large diesel engines - this approach is something I have only seen in racing circles.
There is an argument that cranking with ignition off actually degrades the film of oil that remains from the last shutdown.

Best to get up to speed as quick as possible, with no load...e.g. just start the thing and pump some oil around.

[FVRacer21]

Speaking for myself, and Formula Vee, I always wire the system so I can crank without ignition.

Now FV has much lower compression that other engines and taking the plugs in and out may lead to damaged threads, so while I used to take the plugs out, I do not do that anymore. They are basically part of the heads in between rebuilds.

Cranking till oil pressure shows up on the gauge means filling the engine but also the oil lines and external cooler, if you have one. Normally this takes a few seconds.

I try to mount my filter so when I do an oil change I can fill it before installation - can't hurt. And even with anti drain back valves, oil will drain back after extended periods.

For some of us who remember conventional oils rated SE or lower, we are now up to SP with synthetic oils and all sorts of other rating systems. The new oil flow much better and still may adhere to bearings after shutdown. It may be that the oils now are so good that most of the traditional routines are now not necessary, but old habits die hard.

ChrisZ

[tlracer]

Deleted - finger trouble!

[tlracer]

There have been various discussions about this and several posts mentioned spinning up the oil pump remotely to get pressure before cranking the engine.

I had never tried this so, in a free moment (well, several...) I made an adapter to fit a spare pulley to my cordless drill. By slipping off the belt and having one between the drill pulley and pump, it's amazingly easy to run it up to 20+ psi.

IMG_20230413_131847.jpg

[DaveW]

The first time I start my racecar after installation or oil change, I make sure there is oil at the oil pump inlet, then start normally. Otherwise, I just start it as I do everything else - start and run gently for a few seconds, then proceed as normal. Synthetic multi-grade (as light weight as practical) oil helps get oil flow going quickly.

Since the oil pump inlet is below the normal oil-tank fill level, having oil at the pump before start-up is a given unless the system has been drained. And since, on my Zetec, it takes a bit of cranking to get it started, there is always oil pressure before it starts.

[stonebridge20]

I’ll go out on a limb here. I suggest that cranking the engine over to build up pressure is a nonsense. Is there any evidence that it actually prevents any damage?

In over 50 years experience with all sorts of machinery, lots of which had been idle for many years, I have never seen any damage caused to those engines. Thousands of engines are started every day around the world that have been idle for some time.

In all the years I spent as an application engineer for Detroit Diesel, I cant recall any GM produced service advice regarding starting engines that may have sat for many years.

When I installed another engine into my Formula Ford a few months ago, I had a look at the main and rod bearings before I installed it. It last ran 6 years ago on running in mineral oil. There was plenty of oil on everything - journals, cam, bores etc.

Perhaps others have different experiences. Please discuss.

With an oil pump sitting in a giant tub of oil there isn't much problem getting instant oil pressure on startup.
With a drysump system, there's all kinds of things that need to happen before we see oil pressure at the bearings on startup.

1984 graduate of Ohio Diesel Technical Institute here.

[Lotus7]

Thousands of engines are started every day around the world that have been idle for some time. Please discuss.

I agree. However, (and this is intuition, not evidential), those street car engines, once running, never see max load ever, rarely 50% load even briefly?, whereas we racers run redline endlessly within minutes of startup.

I think of it as a "sure can't hurt" task.
I do work with as many teams who don't do it as do, so YMMV as they say

[Spengo]

Very interesting. Simply that there are differing opinions means my startup rigmarole is perhaps not as important as I thought. I've also been using a heavy weight oil in my pinto engine, 20W-50. Is this incorrect?

[Goallie11]

10W-40 in a Pinto is what Rollin Butler recommends (Cricket Farm Motors). But let's not get sidetracked on that.

I can try asking at work to find out what our (GM) race engine builders recommend as to starting without building pressure first. My guess is not necessary but not harmful.

[DaveW]

With an oil pump sitting in a giant tub of oil there isn't much problem getting instant oil pressure on startup.
With a drysump system, there's all kinds of things that need to happen before we see oil pressure at the bearings on startup.

1984 graduate of Ohio Diesel Technical Institute here.

That's why I included the caveat that the oil level is above the pump inlet. If that's not a given, then I agree with you.

[EYERACE]

Goallie11,

I'm betting you've read through the thread entitled > Oil Pressure 'inidcating' issue < just below yours at this site.

For what it's worth my QuickSilver Pinto runs on Valvoline VR1 Racing Synthetic SAE 10W-30......and reading through this thread makes me want to go have a shot......or two...........but I'm out of Bourbon.

[Hardingfv32]

A few things to note about engine startup:

1) The strength of an oil film is stronger the thinner it gets.
2) The oil and bearings are cold. They are not going to heat up during the start cycle.
3) The A/F mixture at start up is terrible, there is not very little power being made.
4) Rpm's are very low.

Brian

[djones]

I normally have the 2 minutes to remove the plugs and crank till pressure builds. No harm I suspect and makes me feel good.
To each there own lol

[helipilot04]

With my RF98K, I used to pull the plugs and do the starter priming etc.. When I restored my RF80 Club ford, I plumbed in a connection for an external accumulator, (ie Accusump) Just before start I open the valve and prime the engine, then start normally. But need to deal with the external accumulator and associated plumbing. I do not keep it on the car for race. Also the chance for the dry break fitting to fail is a little worrying.

Now I just finished a complete restoration on a vintage FV and decided to go with the Peterson priming remote oil filter mount. BY far the best money spent and easiest way to prime the engine before start, PERIOD.. Take any normal drill, 11mm socket and spin for 3-5 seconds, plenty of pressure and flow to prime any engine.. No random connections, no external connections, all built into the filter housing you need anyway. AWESOME. take seconds and protects your engine and starter.

https://www.petersonfluidsys.com/filter_mount.html

fyi, I'm not affiliated in any way with this product, its company or sales, I just like the way it works.

Regards

Bob Detrick
Leading Edge Racing

[EACIII]

Interesting. No one mentioned pre-heating the oil on a fresh rebuild

Stockcar boys do it every time they start the car. Have heaters built in the oil tank

Ed

[Jon Jeffords]

Synthetic multi-grade (as light weight as practical) oil helps get oil flow going quickly.

In regards to cranking and idling a cold engine so as to establish oil film thickness before firing:

Our oil pumps are positive-displacement gerotor style pumps, so during cranking all of the oil that is being discharged at the pump outlet is flowing into the engine internal oil galley. Even with a cold engine, the oil pressure regulator will be closed at low engine rpm's. So it does not matter if you are using 0W or 50 weight oil (regular or synthetic): the pump discharge flow (gallons per minute) during cranking and idling will all be the same.

David's comment applies directly to a cold engine whose rpm has now been increased enough to crack open the oil pressure regulator. During warm up at higher engine rpm's, an oil galley will see a slightly higher flow rate with a lower viscosity oil versus that of a 50 weight oil. But since we're all warming our oil up to a minimum of 160F before heading out on the track, its a moot point, right?

[Jon Jeffords]

On a normal start up, I pump the throttle a couple times to get fuel into my carb...

I don't understand how pumping the throttle gets fuel into the carb. Typically, pumping the throttle causes the accelerator pump circuit to pump fuel into the intake manifold. This liquid fuel now gets ingested into the combustion chambers during your ignition-off cranking, which has the potential to wet-out on the spark plugs and cylinder walls, neither of which is a good thing.

[Jon Jeffords]

I normally have the 2 minutes to remove the plugs and crank till pressure builds. No harm I suspect and makes me feel good.

While I agree removing the plugs and cranking till pressure builds is acceptable for the first start after a long winter nap, in my opinion the risk of doing this for the remainder of the season is greater than the reward.

I've seen cross-threaded spark plugs during reinstallation by a rookie crew member, and incorrect insertion of the spark plug wire onto the spark plug ("blind" connection on the Zetec engine), resulting in a pit stop after lap 1 of a race in which we were on the pole.

As Greg mentioned, cranking the engine with the ignition off until pressure builds gives me all the tummy comfort I need to know I'll have sufficient oil film thickness when the cylinders start to fire.

[jtaphorn]

Bob

Thanks for sharing this. While I doubt I'll take this path with my FC, I have other cars for which it may be relevant. These discoveries of creative solutions, of which I was unaware, is a real benefit of the Forum.

https://www.petersonfluidsys.com/filter_mount.html

fyi, I'm not affiliated in any way with this product, its company or sales, I just like the way it works.

Regards

Bob Detrick
Leading Edge Racing[/QUOTE]

[DaveW]

In regards to cranking and idling a cold engine so as to establish oil film thickness before firing:

Our oil pumps are positive-displacement gerotor style pumps, so during cranking all of the oil that is being discharged at the pump outlet is flowing into the engine internal oil galley....

You are correct, as far as that goes, but...

With an oil pump sitting in a giant tub of oil there isn't much problem getting instant oil pressure on startup.
With a drysump system, there's all kinds of things that need to happen before we see oil pressure at the bearings on startup...

The main issue with cold startup is not the oil flowing out of the pump into the engine. It's GETTING THE OIL TO THE PUMP from the dry-sump oil tank. When the oil is too thick, any restriction (too-small inline filter, too-small fitting, collapsing hose) before the pump can cause a vacuum before the pump, and starve it. That's the primary reason why multi-grade, low-viscosity-cold, oil is important in startup oil supply even if there is already oil in the hose supplying the pump.

In that regard, I use 0W30 synthetic racing oil in my Zetec.

[DaveW]

Another thing I sometimes do to prime the oil system after draining and refilling the tank - if I can't wait for the oil to get to the pump by gravity, I put 2 psi (no more because I don't want to cause leaks where there is normally no pressure) on the oil tank (you have to plug all openings except the line to the pump) to help oil make its way to the pump. Since even the best oil pump has some clearance, the oil will slowly progress to the pump inlet, at which point cranking will pressurize the system. You can also leave the fitting at the pump inlet slightly loose to speed this up, but you have to watch it to not make a mess.

[helipilot04]

Another thing I sometimes do to prime the oil system after draining and refilling the tank - if I can't wait for the oil to get to the pump by gravity, I put 2 psi (no more because I don't want to cause leaks where there is normally no pressure) on the oil tank (you have to plug all openings except the line to the pump) to help oil make its way to the pump. Since even the best oil pump has some clearance, the oil will slowly progress to the pump inlet, at which point cranking will pressurize the system. You can also leave the fitting at the pump inlet slightly loose to speed this up, but you have to watch it to not make a mess.

Dave,

This solves all those issues.. I didnt think it would, but it def does, and no cranking needed.

https://www.petersonfluidsys.com/filter_mount.html

-Bob

[Purple Frog]

In response to the original question... When I had the old Reynard with the crazy collection of weird starter shafts. It was always easier to put it in gear, and have two crew push on the rear wing, while I popped the clutch.

[DaveW]

Dave,

This solves all those issues.. I didnt think it would, but it def does, and no cranking needed.

https://www.petersonfluidsys.com/filter_mount.html

-Bob

Thanks, I saw that earlier.

That is a very nice unit, but I don't think I'd have room for it w/o some major changes. Plus with long-lasting synthetic oil and a good system that doesn't need priming unless I drain & refill the oil (once or twice a year), I don't think it's needed.

[Marty Nygard]

Back in the 70's I used to work for a company that manufactured and installed large, utility sized, combustion turbines. The horizontal compressor/turbine rotor was very heavy and was supported on two large bearings. When shut down, the rotor would fall to the lower surface of the bearing. Before startup, we always used a mechanical fuel injection pump from a diesel engine to pump lube oil into the bearings and float the rotor. Without this, the rotor would whirl around the ID of the bearing and bang into things.
Although this turbine was a large lump of metal, it only made 70MW. I have no idea how the newer, 300+MW turbines are operated.
M

[DanW]

Back in the 70's I used to work for a company that manufactured and installed large, utility sized, combustion turbines. The horizontal compressor/turbine rotor was very heavy and was supported on two large bearings. When shut down, the rotor would fall to the lower surface of the bearing. Before startup, we always used a mechanical fuel injection pump from a diesel engine to pump lube oil into the bearings and float the rotor. Without this, the rotor would whirl around the ID of the bearing and bang into things.
Although this turbine was a large lump of metal, it only made 70MW. I have no idea how the newer, 300+MW turbines are operated.
M

Hello Marty,

Most all the newer industrial gas turbines and generators are now on tilt pad bearings with oil feed dams built into the pads. They are on "turning gear" when not running, just slowly turning about 1RPM to prevent the shafts bowing.