Road Atlanta

[Jonathan Lee]

Things are looking pretty good for FF1600 right now.

Currently 18 drivers registered for the Hoosier Super Tour this week and 25 drivers are entered for the FRP event at the end of the month. It was also announced today that the FRP race will be live steamed, which is cool.

I heard that QS will be taking delivery of some new Ray FF chassis' and will be working on installing the new "Ford Sigma" engine.

Also the Ray FF1600 in British Spec was released today on Iracing.

This is all very good news.

[Lotus7]

Curious why a Sigma install is being pursued? Is this a “likely to be approved” configuration that’s being kept quiet for now?

[Jonathan Lee]

Curious why a Sigma install is being pursued? Is this a “likely to be approved” configuration that’s being kept quiet for now?

I'm not the most qualified to answer this question, this is just what I've heard through the grapevine: since HPD has pulled out of 1600 and we are running out of Zetecs for 2000, the sigma will be pursued as a viable replacement.

The concept is to max out the ECU tune and to detune the engine with a restrictor. This also allows the engine to be run in both FF and FC, with a simple change of restrictor size.

Thousands of these engines are laying around in the U.S which is another incentive to put this package together. I believe this is the same engine in the SRF3 and it is also used in Australia's National Formula Ford Championship.

I think there isn't much noise around this topic, because it's still in the works and needs times for testing. From what I've heard it will be debuted in FRP, and once established as package that is on par with the current engines, then it will go through the approval process for SCCA use.

Note* these aren't facts, just rumors...

[Lotus7]

Thanks. I guess I compete in blissful ignorance of an electronic cheating problem in Hondas ??

[rockbeau25]

This also allows the engine to be run in both FF and FC, with a simple change of restrictor size

Sorry for hijacking an FF thread...but if only there was an engine that is already installed in a number of otherwise FC-legal cars, is still available from the manufacturer, and has already been balanced against the existing FC engines in FRP. Bonus points if it was made by the manufacturer with by far the biggest involvement in the SCCA.

I'm all for QS or whomever trying to get new engines into classes rather than letting the existing supply continue to dwindle, but the obvious solution has been staring us in the face for over a decade.

[Purple Frog]

Back to the real news of this thread.... As Bob Wright says:

March 6, 2023 – Looking to provide a promotional platform to allow teams and competitors to showcase their products, Formula Race Promotions (FRP) will have a live stream broadcast for the first event of the 2023 season. Taking place at the Michelin Raceway Road Atlanta, FRP has inked a deal with Greenlight TV to provide live video for both run groups, F1600 / F1600 Masters, as well as F1000, F2000, and Atlantic.
“We have been working on a solution to take FRP Live and will try it at our first event of the season,” expressed Bob Wright. “It is a big undertaking and cost to bring this to the table, but Greenlight TV and our association with the SVRA have made this possible. We hope to have thousands of viewers tuning in in just a few weeks’ time.”
Set to be broadcast on Speedtour TV and the Formula Race Promotions Facebook page, FRP would also like to remind competitors to get registered ASAP.
Wright continued, “It is a very full weekend of racing at Road Atlanta, and we want to make sure that we have the most drivers possible to showcase how truly great the FRP program is. Progressing drivers through the ranks and up the motorsports ladder is something that we have become known for, but the platform will open up these racers to both the motorsports industry and race fans at a younger age.”

[Spengo]

I'm not the most qualified to answer this question, this is just what I've heard through the grapevine: since HPD has pulled out of 1600 and we are running out of Zetecs for 2000, the sigma will be pursued as a viable replacement.

The concept is to max out the ECU tune (which eliminates cheating electronically, a problem with the Honda ) and to detune the engine with a restrictor. This also allows the engine to be run in both FF and FC, with a simple change of restrictor size.

Thousands of these engines are laying around in the U.S which is another incentive to put this package together. I believe this is the same engine in the SRF3 and it is also used in Australia's National Formula Ford Championship.

I think there isn't much noise around this topic, because it's still in the works and needs times for testing. From what I've heard it will be debuted in FRP, and once established as package that is on par with the current engines, then it will go through the approval process for SCCA use.

Note* these aren't facts, just rumors...

That would certainly be interesting. If they are in separate run groups the same car could conceivably run both FF and FC on the same day.

[Purple Frog]

Spengo said :
That would certainly be interesting. If they are in separate run groups the same car could conceivably run both FF and FC on the same day.

Frog replied:
I think the setup changes to springs, shocks, rideheight, etc. would cause my race engineer to raise his daily rate, even if I volunteered to bolt the wings on and off. LOL

[Jonathan Lee]

The new Ray chassis looks fast!

[DaveW]

...think about it: gear change, bolt in ballast, install downforce devices, tire change, spring change, ride height change, rescale. If you were to attempt this, you will spend more time working on your car than driving it....

Heck, I spend more time working on the car than driving it almost every weekend that I race !!

I know what you mean, though. It would certainly complicate things.

[Purple Frog]

I always thought the equation was 40 hours of prep for every hour on the track. Maybe why so few are involved. Just saying.

[DaveW]

I always thought the equation was 40 hours of prep for every hour on the track. Maybe why so few are involved. Just saying.

Last year my hours of work on the racecar, tow vehicle, trailer, shop, etc., from my work-plan spreadsheet, was 602. I attended 5 FRP weekends at between 2 to 3 hours on track each weekend.

That equates to 602/(2.5 x 5) = ~48 hours of prep, etc., for each hour on the track. Froggy has it just about right.

That does not include travel time to and from the track, work at the track on the racecar, etc.

[jim morgan]

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[John Nesbitt]

Last year my hours of work on the racecar, tow vehicle, trailer, shop, etc., from my work-plan spreadsheet, was 602. I attended 5 FRP weekends at between 2 to 3 hours on track each weekend.

That equates to 602/(2.5 x 5) = ~48 hours of prep, etc., for each hour on the track. Froggy has it just about right.

That does not include travel time to and from the track, work at the track on the racecar, etc.

When the perennial "Why are so few people taking up open wheel?" thread starts, Dave should post a link to this post.

[DaveW]

Last year my hours of work on the racecar, tow vehicle, trailer, shop, etc., from my work-plan spreadsheet, was 602. I attended 5 FRP weekends at between 2 to 3 hours on track each weekend.

That equates to 602/(2.5 x 5) = ~48 hours of prep, etc., for each hour on the track. Froggy has it just about right.

That does not include travel time to and from the track, work at the track on the racecar, etc.

When the perennial "Why are so few people taking up open wheel?" thread starts, Dave should post a link to this post.

I have to admit that I am very compulsive about removing all body panels, undertray, etc. and checking everything I can see or touch for issues. I realign the suspension before every race. That prevents a lot of failures at the track. My saying about this sort of thing is: "Don't assume anything. Assumptions too often come back to bite you in the butt."

If I have a severe time limitation, I can usually cut the off-track maintenance time in half.

[Purple Frog]

It has now been announced to the free world why Dave has more National Championships than I. For every hour on the track he prepped his equipment 8 hours more than I did.

Until now, most that knew me always thought my "prep" was invested in heavy design considerations as to where to apply the frog decals, and how much purple would be too much. For the record, the hours i spent rummaging through the Hoosier take-off pile behind their trailer was not calculated in my equation... if i had, my prep hour number would rise exponentially.

OBTW, John is correct in his analysis... the amount of work required to be competitive in a purpose built race car may be a bigger deterent to joining the class, than whether the vehicle has a roll cage or not.

[Spengo]

I have to admit that I am very compulsive about removing all body panels, undertray, etc. and checking everything I can see or touch for issues. That prevents a lot of failures at the track. My saying about this sort of thing is: "Don't assume anything. Assumptions too often come back to bite you in the butt."

If I have a severe time limitation, I can usually cut the off-track maintenance time in half.

I had to learn that lesson the hard way. When comparing working on open wheel to street cars though, I strongly prefer the proper racecar that is designed to be taken completely apart all the time.

[TimH]

It has now been announced to the free world why Dave has more National Championships than I. For every hour on the track he prepped his equipment 8 hours more than I did.

I had the same thought. I do maybe 6 hours of routine prep between events (not counting major incidents), which generally avoids mechanical DNFs back in my familiar mid-pack - the place where we have just as much fun as the guys out front.

[problemchild]

Wow. Six hours is barely enough time to clean, inspect, and prepare a worklist.

I am amazed that people are just glossing over the entry size, currently at 32. There may be a few field fillers but this looks like 25+ cars within 3 seconds of each other. Should be an awesome event.

https://www.motorsportreg.com/index....8BDF316D430A7E

[lucky13]

The concept is to max out the ECU tune (which eliminates cheating electronically, a problem with the Honda ) and to detune the engine with a restrictor.

In my opinion, if you are aware of widespread ECU cheating with the Honda, I would hope that you have evidence to support that claim and that you've shared it with FRP staff.

[E1pix]

Except that’s not his job, and he has to race in this class.

My reading was “It’s possible to electronically cheat with a Honda, as with a Kent though that’s an easier cheat to find.”

My reading also revealed about 99 sentences of encouraged positivity regarding Formula F. Those were his message.

[Raceworks]

In my opinion, if you are aware of widespread ECU cheating with the Honda, I would hope that you have evidence to support that claim and that you've shared it with FRP staff.

Last year at a club race there was a cheating controversy during which I was approached by the officials for some suggestions on what to look for as horsepower cheats, with an emphasis on things that could be checked quickly and / or easily. So I'm going to repeat more or less what I told them based on little things like the 100 or so engines we built in the days we ran World Challenge & various open classes in SCCA & NASA, as well as the years we were a "street tuner" shop that did engine swaps, turbo & supercharger conversions, and so on in Hondas--

First off, people who haven't worked a lot with EFI believe a lot of myths about it, like the fact that there's all these magical ways to unlock horsepower with ECU reflashes: and this is certainly true in certain anecdotal cases. VW de-tuned the their 1.8L turbo engines in the early 2000's to keep them slower than Audis with the same engines in heavier cars, BMW did this because a lot of BMW owners didn't follow fuel octane recommendations and they didn't want to deal with all the warranty claims, and GM supposedly de-tuned the first generation GTO's so they had less power than the Corvettes with the same engines.

However, this isn't really the norm: most manufacturers don't "de tune" their engines, but a lot of companies make money selling ECU re-flash devices to people thinking they're going to unlock all this horsepower or fuel efficiency by re-flashing their bone-stock cars and trucks. The problem is that at the end of the day an internal combustion engine is just an air pump: it's only going to create as much power as it has air moving through it. Dicking with ignition timing or injector duty cycles isn't going to suddenly make your 150 HP Nissan Sentra into a 250 HP beast. Most likely you're going to actually lose power, maybe damage the engine, definitely void your warranty.

This is even more true of the Honda FF setup, because the 60mm or so throttle body is choked down to 31.5mm by the air restrictor.
If you remove the rev limiter it doesn't fix the fact that the power curve flattens out about 200 RPM before the rev limiter anyway due to the air flow, dropping the point where the VTEC kicks in only makes it run less efficiently (variable valve timing was developed to increase fuel efficiency, not horsepower), nor does increasing injector duty cycle or jacking up the system pressure (again, you're still only flowing so much air).

The only ECU / wiring hack that does have an effect is messing with the ignition retard. This was an anti-knock feature that kicks in fairly early, but in my experience doesn't really become significant until the water temp exceeds 212F, then there's a noticeable dip in power and the engine even sounds different. The typical hack for this is adding a resistor somewhere between the coolant temp sensor and the ECU to fool the computer into thinking it's running cooler. By itself this doesn't really increase power, it just means you don't lose horsepower in certain circumstances. The problem is you might still lose power because that engine is designed very precisely to run a certain temperature range, plus internal friction will increase as your oil starts overheating. Plus you run the risk of turning your engine into a smoking paperweight if you don't re-set your warning lights. So if there's somebody with a temp sensor warning at only 210 or so on their dash, likely they've got the temp sensor hack.

The temperature hack can be a performance advantage if you combine it with a slipperier engine cover / sidepod design at the expense of increased engine heat. I suspect this is why FRP banned electric cooling fans a few years ago. However, the resistor hack is easy to spot with a decent multimeter.

By far, you're going to get more bang for your buck cheating with the air restrictor. More air-flow is going to equal more power, especially on top end. I know for a fact a lot of people have been screwing around with air restrictors (most recently at a club race in Daytona last year).

You can, of course, simply remove the air restrictor but this is an easy way to get caught even in club racing as it's blatantly obvious. I have seen people pull the restrictors in FRP from time to time, almost always in practice and usually as a form of "psychological warfare:" If somebody sees a time 1.5 seconds faster than everyone, they may decide they need to start tweaking their setups.

More subtly, you run the right-looking restrictor but opened up a bit. Most club-racing techs will only look under the engine cover to see if it's there and the right color. That's supposedly what Mr. Daytona did last year.

Another hack is to simply bypass the restrictor altogether. You can do this by messing with idle air bypass valve: I suspect you could either machine one a bit or get it extrude-honed or polished. That way you could easily swap it out with a stock screw if need be. You could also mess with the blanking plate on the lower intake manifold where the stock EGR valve used to go. It may be as simple as leaving the gasket out to let some air slip by.

In either case this would result in a "fast idle" unless you re-adjust the idle bypass, and by itself would give you a slight top-end boost as well as allow you take greater advantage of the various ECU / wiring hacks I noted above.

Another area to look at is lightened power trains: knife-edged crankshafts, lightened or aluminum flywheels, or replacing the ferrous fasteners on the CV joints with titanium. The last one is a change you can do in minutes, and it will pull about a pound of rotating mass off the rear wheels.

To be clear, I haven't seriously considered any of these myself. Well, OK. I'll admit I really did consider the titanium fasteners thing to the point of buying a set and comparing the weights. But I didn't inhale. However, I have contemplated slapping some protests on people, and I don't want waste money on a bond for some massive teardown, so I thought of some things that are A) fairly easy to test, and B) actually likely to give a significant performance advantage.

[problemchild]

I don't know why we are talking about this crap.

We have 32 frikkin competitive cars entered for a race event!

[lucky13]

I don't know why we are talking about this crap.

We have 32 frikkin competitive cars entered for a race event!

Good point. My bad.

[problemchild]

#	Name	Class	Vehicle	Hometown	Sponsor
0	Jonathan Lee	F1600	1992 SWIFT LR22	Miami, FL	Lee Racing, Quicksilver, Morgan Homes
01	EN Ely Navarro	F1600	2013 Mygale GR	Fisher, IN	RiceRace, EN Investment, Hoosier, Quicksilver, Primus
02	Misha Goikhberg	F1600	2012 Mygale GR	Vaughn, On	RiceRace, Hoosier, Quicksilver, Primus
7	Timothy Steele	F1600	2002 Van Diemen RF02	Westfield, IN	Schutz, EPI, Delph, Kennedy
11	Christopher Kierce	F1600	2014 Spectrum 014H	Cohasset, MA	ATC Technologies
19	Jack Sullivan	F1600	2009 Piper DF-5	Hamilton, OH	Red Line Synthetic Oil
26	CA Charles Anti	F1600	2001 Van Diemen RF-01	Pittsburgh, PA	youtube.com/antispeed
32	Trevor Russell	F1600	1998 Van Dieman F1600	Tucson, AZ	Red Arrow Racing, Inde Motorsports, Primus Racing
65	CB Callum Baxter	F1600	2014 Mygale SJ14\Honda	Hammonds Plains, NS	Britain West Motorsport
80	Sebastian Mateo Naranjo	F1600	2013 Mygale SJ13	Edwards, IL	Mateo Naranjo Racing,Team Pelfrey, Ares Elite Vision
81	DD Dillon Defonce	F1600	2016 Mygale f1600	New preston, CT	pinnacle building co/peak roofing
82	KD Karsten Defonce	F1600	2013 Mygale F1600	New preston, CT	Peak roofing/pinnacle building
89	Julia Tsesmetzis	F1600	2006 Formula K Van Diemen	Hopewell junction, NY	Global Racing Team
91	Bj Shaw	F1600	2018 Spectrum F1600	Indianapolis, IN	Arrive Drive Motorsports
93	AH Austin Holtgraewe	F1600	2018 Spectrum F1600	Lebanon, TN	Arrive Drive Motorsports / Premier Event Rentals
99	PA Porter Aiken	F1600	2009 Piper DF05	Alpharetta, GA	Aiken Racing/Chillout Systems

#	Name	Class	Vehicle	Hometown	Sponsor
00	JM James Morgan	F1600M	1991 swift db6	lighthouse point, FL	Morgan Custom Homes/Lee racing
2	MS Michael Scanlan	F1600M	2014 Spectrum F1600	GREENVALE, NY
3	JC Joe Colasacco	F1600M	2004 Van Dieman FF	Greenwich, CT	Rive Bistro - Auriana Racing
03	SJ Steve Jenks	F1600M	2011 Mygale GR	Castle Rock, CO	Audien Hearing, Cleanlife Products, Rice Race
9	RS Robert Stowell	F1600M	2022 Spectrum 015	LaPorte , IN	Aero Metals
12	BR Bob Reid	F1600M	2011 Citation FF	Millbrook, NY	Weiss
16	SR Steve Roux	F1600M	2012 Wyvern SR1	New Fairfield, CT	Self
21	DP Dave Petzko	F1600M	2013 Spectrum 014H	Media, PA	Shady Hill Clayworks
31	SR Scott Rubenzer	F1600M	2012 Spectrum 2012ff	Brookfield, WI	Morgan's Collision Center
41	RA Robert Albani	F1600M	2014 Mygale SJ14H	Glen Cove, NY	Home Tech Consultants
70	Sam Lockwood	F1600M	2014 Spectrum 014H	Cumming, GA	Raceworks, Meji Enterprises
73	RP Robert Perona	F1600M	2014 Piper DL-7	Indianapolis, IN	Bell, Sparco, Lucas Oil
83	KB Ken Bouquillon	F1600M	2011 Mygale SJ11	Oxford, CT	Team Pelfrey
84	David Adorno	F1600M	2015 MYGALE FJ15	WOODHAVEN, NY	DMVSTOP RACING
85	DL David H. Livingston, Jr.	F1600M	2014 Spectrum 14H	Nashville, TN	ThermaMasters
86	Kevin Brumbaugh	F1600M	2002 Van Diemen RF02	Gilbert, SC	JPAR Magnolia Group

[Purple Frog]

Jim Morgan driving the Lee Racing spare parts car... oh my. After entering FC cars without diffusers at Homestead, what kind of hyjinks is this South Florida team going to try to pull off at Atlanta? Jim's newest tires are probably pre-pandemic. Some debate what fuel he burns more of when he makes his pit-stops at 7/11, 87 octane or Hostess Twenkies. If you are going to Road Atlanta keep an eye on all your wardrobe, Jim doesn't own a winter coat, so usually 5 minutes after arrival he goes "shopping" for warm clothing.
Has anyone told Jim this is a "pro" race and he has to have a radio in the car. I'm so looking forward to see how he fits his 1987 boombox on his lap, the one with the cassette tape player on the top.

Also looking forward to the live video of the white flag lap when Jim comes under the bridge just ahead of the leaders trying to lap him for the second time.

[Purple Frog]

The weather looks good except for Saturday morning. It should be a great event. The Masters class race field is loaded with talent. It looks like a bunch of nice folks wandering down from the northern latitudes.
OBTW, Jim contacted me and said I should pick on somebody my own size. I told him I thought I was. You must admit that 30 year old Swift chassis must be a masterpiece of engineering to handle the loads the driver puts into it.

[CF56]

Just ran my first FRP F1600 race in.years, although my FRP participation goes back to the very first F1600 event. Having also done the Hoosier Super Tour two weeks ago the back-to-back comparison is fresh. As a 36-year member I still love SCCA, but the FRP event was fabulous. Well organized, well run, series officials looking for ways to help, lots of great competition racing fast, hard but fair. Even though I had some mechanical issues (I believe stemming from undetected damage when an F600 tried to win the HST race on the first lap, lost it and hit me in T3), it was still an exciting event and the most fun I've had racing in years. I will certainly be back with FRP sooner rather than later. Thanks Bob and company.

[CScharnow]

The live stream was awesome. Well overdue and great to see.

[Lotus7]

The live stream was awesome. Well overdue and great to see.

overdue? streaming costs money; FRP was able to piggyback svra affordably this time

[CScharnow]

overdue? streaming costs money; FRP was able to piggyback svra affordably this time

Obviously. My apologies, I'll do a better job complimenting it next time.

Kudos to everyone for making that happen. Looked like a great event.

[Lotus7]

Obviously. My apologies, I'll do a better job complimenting it next time.

Kudos to everyone for making that happen. Looked like a great event.

sorry, it came across differently; we all welcomed the video. regards.

[Jonathan Lee]

This weekend hosted some of the cleanest, closest and aggressive racing I've seen at an FRP event.

The staff did a wonderful job as always, and it's nice to be able to get better and mature as a driver with some of the others who continue to run the series or the class for multiple years in a row.

I had a chance to podium in race 1 and possibly win race 2, if time didn't get wasted due to full course caution laps. Who knows, maybe I would of crashed out trying. But in the end I finished both races in 5th.

Race 2 was my best chance though, starting from pole. I did my best to defend, got passed on the long straight by 4 cars. I also made 2 mistakes and lost a couple of positions.

In race 3, my 20+ year old hytech header broke on lap 3 and I did my best, finishing 10th.

Those slippery piper DF5's are super fast at this track, they won every single race. Congrats to Bob and Porter!
For the rest of us who didn't win or podium, it was still a blast. Sometimes you feel ok leaving the track, knowing you had a great battle and nothing else!

Captain Morgan had a fun time too, he learned you can do circles on the straight away if you use 5+ year old rain tires

[problemchild]

This pic is being posted and shared all over social media. Not because the RiceRace car is leading, but because it is just an incredible photo.
Great event!

[E1pix]

That sure brings back a memory of an unscanned slide when I was 16.

Same image framing, same class, same conditions, except Dennis Firestone leading Bruce Macinnes, Dave Weitzenhof, Billy Scyphers, Gary Hackbarth , and the rest at the 1976 Runoffs.

[problemchild]

Pretty good diversity of cars too. From 1st to 13th.
Mygale, 3x Piper DF-5, Piper DS-3, Van Deimen, Mygale, Mygale, Mygale, Van Deimen, Swift DB-6, Mygale, Mygale

[Purple Frog]

Wowza!

[Matt Clark]

I watched the SpeedTour TV coverage, and it was a great set of races. Shame the weather did not hold out, but I think it was a great showing for the class & FRP on debut. A huge field with proper racing action is what people need to see, and it was great interaction with the viewers on YouTube as they asked questions & were trying to learn.
That is how we grow classes & get interest back. "Look Ma, I'm on TV!"

On that note, it was also perfect to have Dustin Hodges in the booth in a SME role, as some of the previous broadcasts from them I watched sounded a bit confusing & lost. With more events going to be covered, them doing a quick reference list of the car & engine specs, random details, etc. would go a long way to really polishing things off. But that possibly is just my OCD on information/history.

Oh, and their director definitely needs to cover the cars as they cross the line... not tell us how close a finish was, while watching a cool-down lap of others. lol

[LenFC11]

Where can this be watched

[Matt Clark]

Where can this be watched

now that FRP has partnered with SVRA, the SpeedTour TV YouTube channel covers things. They sometimes break the run groups down & upload the separate videos, but for now, you have to pick the full day Live vids to rewatch.

https://www.youtube.com/@SpeedTourTV/streams