Release of Liability

[Rick Iverson]

Gents;

As this is a litigious society, does anyone have a “Release of Liability“ statement when selling a car.

[EYERACE]

I would think a simple "sold as is" written on the Bill of Sale would do

[E1pix]

Logical concern Rick, some info here (for street cars, but probably applicable):
https://www.upcounsel.com/release-of...-form-car-sale

[EYERACE]

Ah yes. A whole different thought than "sold as is" ....good question

[Lotus7]

Along those lines, my banker told me recently that even Certified Checks are now being forged very accurately, and advised me to only take cash or direct bank-to-bank transfers for sales to strangers.

[Mark_Silverberg]

last time I sold a race car I drew up a document which was about two pages. This was a long distance sale where the vehicle was being picked up by a third party prep shop.

It is my opinion that you really can not do a release of liability on a race car as it is not really enforceable as that document will not prevent you from being sued. The sales agreement basically describes what you are selling, what you are stating the vehicle is, and what assumption the buyer can make. In addition it should have basic information about how the vehicle will be transferred and how payment will be received.

This is what I put in the document

1) Basic description of vehicle- model, year, date and who did last major restoration / rebuild. Information on engine and approximately how many hours of run time. Detail on time in service items such as belts, fire system and ect. Detail on what class and rules the vehicle is prepared to (or not) Detail on any spare parts included. Chassis plate number if applicable. Describe what log books will be included with vehicle if any. This is not a place to brag about how good the car is - simply state facts which can be defended.

2) Basic information stating that it is a vehicle for racing use only. Is not intended for street use and can not be licensed for street use. State that is does not have a tile and that the sale contact will serve to document transfer of ownership.

3) Statement that buyer acknowledges that racing is a dangerous activity and that they should conduct a complete inspection and service of the vehicle before participating in any racing or track event. The seller is not depicting the vehicle to be in a ready to race condition. The buyer assumes all risk in operation of the vehicle.

4) Basic information on how and when the vehicle will be delivered. Define at what point the seller will not longer insure the vehicle for storage and transport. This could either be when the vehicle is picked up or after the vehicle is delivered - this is negotiable.

5) Payment terms- how and when the payment or payments will be received for the vehicle. Last transaction I requested a deposit to hold the car. the majority of the payment before I transported the car to the pick up location. And a small balance when the car was delivered. They were all personal checks from the buyers checking account with their name and address on the check. I assumed if the first two checks were good that the small final check would be fine. I am wary of cashiers checks from unknown individuals for the entire amount at time of transfer - particularly if it is outside business hours and the bank can not be contacted. If I had to do a long distance sale in one transaction I would probably ask the seller to deposit funds in a National bank with branches in my area and work out some sort of direct transfer to an account I opened to manage the transaction.

6) You also may want to include a section including resolution of any disputes regarding the sale. I think I put in something that the any disputes would be heard in the small claims court in my area. This would means that you as a seller would not have to travel to a different area if a dispute arose - unless the seller petitioned to move to a different court system.

This may seem detailed but I do not think any one experienced in the sport would have any issues with any of the items listed here. If some one object it is probably a signal to look for another buyer.

[JoshuaJustice]

Along those lines, my banker told me recently that even Certified Checks are now being forged very accurately, and advised me to only take cash or direct bank-to-bank transfers for sales to strangers.

It's unfortunate (as I bought my SRF with a certified check), but I have to agree with this. I have in my possession a "certified check" someone tried to forge to me on a sale of my race suit, trying to pull the old "pay them more than the thing is priced at so they have to refund money then the check bounces" scam. The check is from one company, the return address on the envelope was from another, and the postmark on the envelope was from yet a different location. I took it to the bank and they didn't even want to take the check for the police to do anything about.

It's shockingly realistic, even has the heat signature thing on it.

As a seller, the best option is Zelle, but buyers are the ones in danger with Zelle transactions as they can't be reversed if the seller is fraudulent. What we really need is a decent intermediary that doesn't charge an exorbitant fee and doesn't steal peoples' money (Paypal does both of these things).

[dereklola]

What we really need is a decent intermediary that doesn't charge an exorbitant fee and doesn't steal peoples' money (Paypal does both of these things).

I always used to use Paypal - never a problem. Has it really deteriorated so much? Maybe I should just give away my BDD engine

[John Nesbitt]

...

As a seller, the best option is Zelle, but buyers are the ones in danger with Zelle transactions as they can't be reversed if the seller is fraudulent. What we really need is a decent intermediary that doesn't charge an exorbitant fee and doesn't steal peoples' money (Paypal does both of these things).

I always used to use Paypal - never a problem. Has it really deteriorated so much? Maybe I should just give away my BDD engine

My experience with Paypal, as buyer, is that it gives very good fraud protection. Paypal has never failed to make good when the seller delivered less than promised (or nothing).

As seller, my experience is the mirror-image. If the buyer tries to cheat me by claiming that the item did not arrive or was defective, Paypal yanks my money back. OTOH, Paypal facilitates transactions between people who do not know each other, and that makes for a wider market if I am selling.

My bottom line is that, for anything costing less than $1000-ish, Paypal is fine. For a larger transaction, like a racecar, in-person cash or bank transfer is the only way to go.

And, above all, reputation on both sides provides the best assurance of a successful transaction. (Jon Lewis, I am looking at you. )

[lance3556]

it's all fun and games until attorney involved.

https://www.kptv.com/2023/02/16/test...power-waivers/

[JoshuaJustice]

This is getting off the original topic, but since you asked:

Paypal charges 2.99% for most transactions unless the buyer does a "gift" or "donation" (which of course offers them no protection). This would be reasonable in and of itself (as it's largely just a small wrapper around the credit/debit card transaction fee, and the amount that Paypal themselves actually keeps is like 0.5% which is not inherently ridiculous). Source: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mp...es#statement-2 , "Send/Receive Money for Goods and Services"

The problem comes when you try to get your money out of Paypal.

They can arbitrarily decide your transaction is suspicious and try to hold the money for longer - as happened to me a decade ago in a different hobby space where I was much less financially well off and genuinely needed the money to make rent and they just went "lol you sold over $100 worth of stuff we're going to lock your money up for 21 days" - and they can do this for up to 180 days. You've got absolutely zero recourse if they do this to you, and Paypal has a long history of "seizing funds" from accounts "in violation of the Terms of Service", again, with zero oversight.

Incidentally, one of the "activities requiring preapproval" on their Acceptable Use Policy is "High Value Items": https://www.paypal.com/us/legalhub/acceptableuse-full - and if you violate their AUP, they consider $2500 to be "minimum damages" (page 33, https://www.paypalobjects.com/market.../ua-091922.pdf )

You sell a racecar on PayPal, that's a High Value Item - there's a chance they'll just declare you violated the AUP, lock your money up for 6 months, invest it in bonds pulling a few percentage points of interest, and then return it to you minus the $2500 to cover the "internal administrative costs incurred by PayPal to monitor and track violations" and "damage to PayPal’s brand and reputation". Nice racket they're running, clearly I'm in the wrong line of work.

I wouldn't ever use Paypal for anything anymore and I've long since nuked my personal Paypal account.

[EYERACE]

You always carry weapons - cuz you always carry cash

When I bought my Crossle I took 13K in cash and some loaded cold blue steel to a seller I'd never met before at his house and left with only a bill of sale and a promise he'd deliver the car to a Daytona Driver's School.....which he did
When I sold it, the buyer arrived with cash at my home ...which went into the safe .....and then buyer left with the car on his trailer.

When I bought my Lotus....the seller and I went to my Bank branch in his City and they gave him his Cashier's Check.....easy peezy...and then we went back to his Commercial shop and loaded the car into my trailer

If you're selling a car...it's easy .......you dictate the terms...........anything else is a no go.

If you're buying, you arrive in person and armed........but the seller doesn't need to know what you're packing.

Sure other ways of doing business can work.........but why worry

[E1pix]

If doing business with cash requires a firearm, then bank transfers are the obvious choice.

[Rick Iverson]

Gents;

Actually, my thoughts were concerning the car.

As an example, someone buys my formula car with a bazillion moving parts, 90% new, all either safety wired or tamper proof marked.

What’s to say I screwed up and failed to torque a critical component to AN/NAS fastener specs. The car is pristine, and presumably the new owner will race it as is. If something fails as a function of an under/over/no torque, am I liable?

[EYERACE]

Are you liable? Not if you give them a paper that says: sold as is, no warranty implied or expressed.

[E1pix]

Gents;

Actually, my thoughts were concerning the car.

As an example, someone buys my formula car with a bazillion moving parts, 90% new, all either safety wired or tamper proof marked.

What’s to say I screwed up and failed to torque a critical component to AN/NAS fastener specs. The car is pristine, and presumably the new owner will race it as is. If something fails as a function of an under/over/no torque, am I liable?

I knew that’s what you’re asking, and the link addresses similar concerns. And you’re wise to think about this, in my opinion.

I’m no lawyer but have spent enough time in cases and in biz to know one truth:
Nothing’s a problem until it is.

I think some self-protection is in order here, including some outtakes from the above posts and likely beyond. The biggest liability IMO is knowing of a safety concern and saying nothing, obviously not the case here but worth stating in effect.

The concern of course is that regardless of what’s been signed, anyone can still sue. And if their pockets and motivations and endurance or spite are beyond what you’re willing to spend, it can be a ***massive*** drain far beyond the sell. This part is from experience, but as a prosecuting party, and its effects are daunting.

Honestly, without licensed counsel, anything said here is likely incomplete — or in downright err. I hope an attorney wanders in to at least justify whether or not your concerns are warranted.

Best of Luck.

[Mark_Silverberg]

You always carry weapons - cuz you always carry cash

When I bought my Crossle I took 13K in cash and some loaded cold blue steel to a seller I'd never met before at his house and left with only a bill of sale and a promise he'd deliver the car to a Daytona Driver's School.....which he did
When I sold it, the buyer arrived with cash at my home ...which went into the safe .....and then buyer left with the car on his trailer.

When I bought my Lotus....the seller and I went to my Bank branch in his City and they gave him his Cashier's Check.....easy peezy...and then we went back to his Commercial shop and loaded the car into my trailer

If you're selling a car...it's easy .......you dictate the terms...........anything else is a no go.

If you're buying, you arrive in person and armed........but the seller doesn't need to know what you're packing.

Sure other ways of doing business can work.........but why worry

I am glad the cash transaction worked out for you - but it is risky on several factors

1) There is no substantiating trail of payment and you are relying on the good faith of the seller to not come back and say they were not paid. Now a purchase agreement stating paid in full will help protect you - but not from claims it was forged

2) Unfortunately traveling with large sums of cash puts travelers at risk for civil asset forfeiture - say you were involved in a minor traffic accident. The investigating officer can take that money from you under suspicion that it is the result of an illegal activity - no proof is required - nor must a reason be given.. The burden of proof to recover the money is high and the legal fees required can not be recovered from the government if you prevail. You might think that they would not bother unless it is a substantial amount - but often even amount less than $1000 have be confiscated.

Cash is not the answer here.

[Mark_Silverberg]

I knew that’s what you’re asking, and the link addresses similar concerns. And you’re wise to think about this, in my opinion.

I’m no lawyer but have spent enough time in cases and in biz to know one truth:
Nothing’s a problem until it is.

I think some self-protection is in order here, including some outtakes from the above posts and likely beyond. The biggest liability IMO is knowing of a safety concern and saying nothing, obviously not the case here but worth stating in effect.

The concern of course is that regardless of what’s been signed, anyone can still sue. And if their pockets and motivations and endurance or spite are beyond what you’re willing to spend, it can be a ***massive*** drain far beyond the sell. This part is from experience, but as a prosecuting party, and its effects are daunting.

Honestly, without licensed counsel, anything said here is likely incomplete — or in downright err. I hope an attorney wanders in to at least justify whether or not your concerns are warranted.

Best of Luck.

Not just any one - but any interested party - such as a medical, disability, or life insurance company.

[John Nesbitt]

I am glad the cash transaction worked out for you - but it is risky on several factors

1) There is no substantiating trail of payment and you are relying on the good faith of the seller to not come back and say they were not paid. Now a purchase agreement stating paid in full will help protect you - but not from claims it was forged

2) Unfortunately traveling with large sums of cash puts travelers at risk for civil asset forfeiture - say you were involved in a minor traffic accident. The investigating officer can take that money from you under suspicion that it is the result of an illegal activity - no proof is required - nor must a reason be given.. The burden of proof to recover the money is high and the legal fees required can not be recovered from the government if you prevail. You might think that they would not bother unless it is a substantial amount - but often even amount less than $1000 have be confiscated.

Cash is not the answer here.

Item #2 depends heavily on your skin color.

At least here in Canada, some police departments have implemented 'safe trading spaces' - areas of the police station parking lot that are well-lit and under surveillance, where buyer and seller can meet to exchange cash for goods. Particularly useful for Craigslist/Kijiji transactions, but also useful for the sort under discussion here.

[phantomjock]

Rick-

This discussion seems to have drifted from your question of "Release of Liability" to means of transfer. If I can be indulged, I'll relate my recent experience(s), that involve both.

Liability - sold as-is-where-is. "Racing is dangerous, and the buyer understands- blah, blah" These are the kinds of statements I've seen. Legally binding? Who can say. But when they've signed it is an acknowledgement. The SR and trailer was sold using a Bill of Sale offered here on Apex- thanks to Larry Winkelman! If you're including a trailer, in Florida, the rego is signed over, BUT YOU KEEP THE TAG.

If you can - get to know your buyer. Get references from eBay, or PayPal, LinkedIn, or fellow racers. SCCA member? Other organizations to track them through. Common racers to know if they are the "real deal?"

Get a deposit if you're concerned about the deal falling through. Take a deposit check well in advance and let it clear. Work with their bank/Credit Union, and have the buyer bring a certified/cashier's check. Have your bank/Credit Union call theirs and square it. If you expect any price haggle have them bring a cash difference.

Then, Do the Deal.

As an example, within 96 hours, I flew to Cape Cod, purchased a camper van, drove it 1600+ miles home, and then sold my sports racer and trailer that weekend. Both sales involved getting to know the buyer/seller - in advance. Title transfer for the van was of course a no-brainer, [except banks were closed, but when they had spoken with ours, they were comfortable] even though they were seniors and "nervous." My offer to send them a check to deposit and clear early was enough of an earnest offer for them to to move on with a deal.

In both cases, we traded emails, calls, and signed/notarized letter of intent/bills of sale, documents before we went to Cape Cod and returned. Then our buyer had to drive 800 miles to buy the race package. A lot of moving parts - but you can do it.

Best of Luck. Hope you're not trying to hook me into buying it! Bet its a great car.

Cheers - Jim

[Rick Iverson]

Jim;

Good stuff here.

When the dust settles, let’s meet at the Bay Cafe with the women folk. My treat.

Post Scriptum - Their blackened grouper croissant with meunière sauce is totally delicious

Rick-

This discussion seems to have drifted from your question of "Release of Liability" to means of transfer. If I can be indulged, I'll relate my recent experience(s), that involve both.

Liability - sold as-is-where-is. "Racing is dangerous, and the buyer understands- blah, blah" These are the kinds of statements I've seen. Legally binding? Who can say. But when they've signed it is an acknowledgement. The SR and trailer was sold using a Bill of Sale offered here on Apex- thanks to Larry Winkelman! If you're including a trailer, in Florida, the rego is signed over, BUT YOU KEEP THE TAG.

If you can - get to know your buyer. Get references from eBay, or PayPal, LinkedIn, or fellow racers. SCCA member? Other organizations to track them through. Common racers to know if they are the "real deal?"

Get a deposit if you're concerned about the deal falling through. Take a deposit check well in advance and let it clear. Work with their bank/Credit Union, and have the buyer bring a certified/cashier's check. Have your bank/Credit Union call theirs and square it. If you expect any price haggle have them bring a cash difference.

Then, Do the Deal.

As an example, within 96 hours, I flew to Cape Cod, purchased a camper van, drove it 1600+ miles home, and then sold my sports racer and trailer that weekend. Both sales involved getting to know the buyer/seller - in advance. Title transfer for the van was of course a no-brainer, [except banks were closed, but when they had spoken with ours, they were comfortable] even though they were seniors and "nervous." My offer to send them a check to deposit and clear early was enough of an earnest offer for them to to move on with a deal.

In both cases, we traded emails, calls, and signed/notarized letter of intent/bills of sale, documents before we went to Cape Cod and returned. Then our buyer had to drive 800 miles to buy the race package. A lot of moving parts - but you can do it.

Best of Luck. Hope you're not trying to hook me into buying it! Bet its a great car.

Cheers - Jim

[reidhazelton]

Gents;

Actually, my thoughts were concerning the car.

As an example, someone buys my formula car with a bazillion moving parts, 90% new, all either safety wired or tamper proof marked.

What’s to say I screwed up and failed to torque a critical component to AN/NAS fastener specs. The car is pristine, and presumably the new owner will race it as is. If something fails as a function of an under/over/no torque, am I liable?

[Enter clause saying this is not legal advice and does not create a legal relationship...etc]

Generally, no. That would be simple negligence and you can waive liability for that. That said, you cannot waive liability for gross negligence or willful misconduct. So, if you sabotage something or don't tell the buyer about the stick of dynamite you wired to the coil, a simple "as is and assumes no liability post sale" is NOT going to eliminate your liability.

You can add language about race cars are inherently dangerous, buyer assumes all risks/responsibilities/liabilities, and must thoroughly inspect the vehicle prior to using it. Whatever you need to feel comfortable, you can add. That said, it won't prevent the buyer from suing you if something happens and they choose to sue, but your bill of sale might help get the case tossed and prevent the case from getting to trial/small claims/etc.

[John LaRue]

If you are concerned then sell it in a disassembled state.

[whadeduck]

My bottom line is that, for anything costing less than $1000-ish, Paypal is fine. For a larger transaction, like a racecar, in-person cash or bank transfer is the only way to go.

Wait! Race cars cost more than $1,000? Dang it!. Looks like I have a whole lotta savin' to do then.

[John Nesbitt]

Wait! Race cars cost more than $1,000? Dang it!. Looks like I have a whole lotta savin' to do then.

Trust me. You cannot afford a $1000 racecar. They are the most expensive kind.

[reidhazelton]

If you are concerned then sell it in a disassembled state.

Like Texas? Maybe Alabama.