Flagtronic in car warning light system

[Steve Demeter]

Anyone who suggests mounting this on the top of the bodywork in front of the driver is totally unaware of what that will do. Also the HALO saves lives.

All this inane system will do is line some vendors pockets at the expense of the competitors.

To think that a light on your dash is as effective as a person waving a flag is totally ludicrous. Anyone who disagrees hasn't a clue.
Anyone who disagrees reply with empirical data from independent studies of real life users who eliminated floggers because of installing Flagtronics.

Anything less than that is pure BS.

All of t hat said one of the reasons given for this proposal was the ongoing shortage of workers and in some cases having to pay tracks for workers. I personally believe that a little light somewhere in my car will not begin to replace a person holding a flag. Even if entry fees have to go up, safety is most important!!

Now ask me how I really feel

I think the people who are pushing this ought be pushed right out of any position of authority.



In 45 years of SCCA Club Racing I have never heard of anything this totally senseless

[Matt Clark]

Anyone who disagrees hasn't a clue

I guess I do not have a clue after 15 years, because while I have missed a flag here + there while in a 6+ car FV battle, I have never missed the light on my dash telling me I lost Oil Pressure or was running too hot.

[david oleary]

I agree with STEVE,
i am also a 45 year member and driver of many OW cars in the pass, from FF-FB-FC-FM-FA-CSR-DSR-P2,
a corner worker is the best thing going. (NOT A DASH LIGHT) and now a flashing rain light also. look at the fields and wonder why
OW entries are down?

IMHO
So are we REQUIRED to have one in 2024???

[Fred Michael]

So are we REQUIRED to have one in 2024???

Mandatory at the 2024 Runoffs

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Hopefully these questions have been dealt with....

How will a green flag work on a split start?
We do this all the time.

Will there be interference between 2 tracks located next to each other?
How will my device know what 'control broadcast' to listen to?

They will be opening 'The Circuit at ButtonWillow' sometime very soon and the tracks are very close to each other.

[SteveG]

Hopefully these questions have been dealt with....

They will be opening 'The Circuit at ButtonWillow' sometime very soon and the tracks are very close to each other.

Or Thunderhill east and west which already run concurrently

Steve

[brian styczynski]

Hopefully these questions have been dealt with....

How will a green flag work on a split start?
We do this all the time.

Will there be interference between 2 tracks located next to each other?
How will my device know what 'control broadcast' to listen to?

They will be opening 'The Circuit at ButtonWillow' sometime very soon and the tracks are very close to each other.

Valid questions, plenty of time, 13 months, to address this and spacial confinements before the first mandatory use race. I would guess the answer would be each unit has unique ID and GPS location and not an issue, but has it been tested like this? I guess each point needs to be brought up with a CRB letter from what we learned in the rain light discussion.

[Steve Davis]

Valid questions, plenty of time, 13 months, to address this and spacial confinements before the first mandatory use race....

IIRC the Runoffs 2024 rule also says that FT will be required at SELECT Majors .. I'd guess, maybe ALL ... or most of the HST's.

[924RACR]

Well, it needs to be in the car.

Visibility may not be... meaningful. It might even be in the cockpit!

I could put it on the back of my car, to warn the guy behind me???

Didn't have time to join the Flagtronics interview; I gather they didn't even address the issue we face??

[DaveW]

I agree with STEVE,
i am also a 45 year member and driver of many OW cars in the pass, from FF-FB-FC-FM-FA-CSR-DSR-P2. A corner worker is the best thing going. (NOT A DASH LIGHT) and now a flashing rain light also. look at the fields and wonder why OW entries are down?...

There is a shortage of corner workers - a lot of the most dedicated ones are aging out of doing that. So another means of alerting drivers to situations needs to be available.

I can see a time where, without an alternate solution, races will be cancelled due to a lack of corner workers.

[Hardingfv32]

[QUOTE=BeerBudgetRacing;655967]Hopefully these questions have been dealt with....

How will a green flag work on a split start?
We do this all the time.

Will there be interference between 2 tracks located next to each other?
How will my device know what 'control broadcast' to listen to?/QUOTE]

1) I am not sure a green light is always displayed under normal track conditions. For a split start there could be no green light displayed until you cross start/finish. The starter would be signaling the start.

2) Your device has an address. All communications to car devices are specific to just that car and modified based on its location on the track. For example: This is why only your display will change to green when you clear a yellow zone.

Well, this is how I would design/program it.

Brian

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Well, this is how I would design/program it.

Brian

Yes, I would to. But it looks like it was designed originally for a single series.

So, we are making more work for race control. When we register we will need to provide the unit ID like the transponder and then they need to put it all in the software. Hopefully the scoring software and Motorsportreg make accommodations for this.

[Hardingfv32]

So, we are making more work for race control....

The system is universal, but the software could be refined to meet specific club requirements. Clubs could always change procedures to better match the system.

Your system ID will be log into Regions once and retained just like the timing system ID. No big work load there.

I can see no need for extra race control work load. The system communicates info just like corner workers about track activity. Race control dictates system output. Actual flagger s might get all their instructions form the system as created by race control.

Brian

[Steve Demeter]

But at many spots on various tracks race control can not see the action and has to depend on the corner workers for their information and decision making.

Picture this: 2 cars tangle and end up blocking the road. Corner workers would immediately put out a waving yellow (probably vigorously waving) . If we replace corner workers with race control and Flagtronice, there will be no warning in time anyone close behind, assuming race control can even see the spot.

Since the main justification for this seems to be doing away y with the need for corner workers it looks like a slippery slope to a disaster.

[TimH]

Since the main justification for this seems to be doing away y with the need for corner workers it looks like a slippery slope to a disaster.

I think the justification is to have something harder for the driver to ignore. Professional series that have gone that direction certainly haven't eliminated the corner workers.

We sometimes run at a country club track where they have light panels instead of flaggers on some practice days. It's understood by all that on those days we don't race and we don't take many chances on track. Strictly practice and testing. Yesterday there was light rain. I'd have gone out and had a lot of fun if there were corner workers, but not without them. No Thank You.

[FVRacer21]

I don't think the SCCA wants to do away with corner workers.

The elephant in the room is that, especially this year, we have see a large drop in corner worker attendance.

Probable causes:
1. Increasing age of corner workers
2. Increasing cost of motels (If I sleep in my trailer...... some tracks are now charging camping fees! We forget the corner workers incur costs too.)
3. Increased demand by car clubs for corner workers on alternate weekend - although some of them are paying....
4. Lack of interest in young people to travel and volunteer. Covid did make us more stay at home.
5. Most tracks are well away from population centers, less people to draw from.
6. And many that I cannot think of right now.

MoHud and NER are actively looking for ideas to stem the tide - we have been lucky to have 2 corner workers per station, when 4 should be the minimum.

Drivers cannot be unsympathetic to this problem. Yes without drivers, there is no racing, but without corner workers - all we can have is Flagtronics (or similar)

Please work with your regions to help find workers and push helping out to friend, family etc. If the region does advertising, help out by reposting their ads, put links on your website and Facebook pages. Talk it up whenever you can and if you have any ideas, please let people know.

ChrisZ

[Rick Kirchner]

Four per station? I could see maybe three, but it seems most do with two.

I believe we cover our corner worker's expenses in VARA.

Workers are also there to see the cars and races. Lousy, uninteresting stuff and they'll look for better events.

[TimH]

Workers are also there to see the cars and races. Lousy, uninteresting stuff and they'll look for better events.

And yet F1 manages to have enough...

[RussMcB]

I'm thinking about times, like rain races, where it's either hard to see some corner stations, or there are people wearing yellow raincoats at track edge, where I can see a cockpit light coming on will grab my attention much better than a flagger off to the side of my vision/focus.

That's not to say I very much appreciate corner workers and want them to be a part of our racing forever.

[Steve Davis]

Four per station? I could see maybe three, but it seems most do with two.

I believe we cover our corner worker's expenses in VARA.

Workers are also there to see the cars and races. Lousy, uninteresting stuff and they'll look for better events.

Back in the old days (early 70's) wife and I worked corners. We often had 10-12 on every corner. With about 4-5 working and the others 'on break' and able to travel around to other corners and see the views on alternate sessions.
And no one even bothered to bring us WATER.. We were on our own for 'survival' .. and we loved it!
Unfortunately, those experiences ultimately led to ME getting a race car .. and, well.. life has never been the same since then...
Steve

[Rick Kirchner]

And yet F1 manages to have enough...

Well, there is the glam. I was the tire official in the Ferrari garage for the first Indy F1. The other guy, who I hadn't seen in 10 years, was a CENDIV steward from Detroit - British gent who evidently was a principal in Chrysler's Lambo F1 engine program.

It was kind of a cool experience, and we were treated very well (parking, food, etc, even a well-stocked worker party), except for the fact that we were't allowed any cameras (long before camera phones dontcha know). Being caught with a camera was instant dismissal. I was lucky that I could just stay with my mom.

[Rick Kirchner]

Back in the old days (early 70's) wife and I worked corners. We often had 10-12 on every corner

I'd think that nowadays they would limit the number of corner workers to the minimum required to reduce risk.

[Peter Olivola]

I'd think that nowadays they would limit the number of corner workers to the minimum required to reduce risk.

IIRC, track certification requires all corner stations to be behind positive protection. With only two workers at a station a lot of things are being missed, especially PUYs. A well staffed corner, and that varies by corner, reduces missed incidents.

[Steve Davis]

I'm thinking about times, like rain races, where it's either hard to see some corner stations, or there are people wearing yellow raincoats at track edge, where I can see a cockpit light coming on will grab my attention much better than a flagger off to the side of my vision/focus.

That's not to say I very much appreciate corner workers and want them to be a part of our racing forever.

Maybe the CRB will decide to make all corner workers wear a flashing RAIN LIGHT (maybe BLUE?) so they won't be missed ? Of course, the rich DRIVERS (as well as the poor ones) would foot the bill.

Thinking more of this incar system... I have TWO oil light LED strings in my cockpit.. very bright .. and I HAVE missed them (at least my data says I have - admittedly, they were mostly brief). My focus is ALWAYS OUTSIDE the cockpit. I also have an LED 'train' like the F1 guys have showing RPM for shifting on my AIM dash.. but I almost never SEE THAT. I can see it in my incar video, but I pretty much shift BY EAR after all these years. I don't know what I could do with a FT display that could possibly be more 'noticeable' than those lights I already have - even if I had the room. I have driven PACE CAR for SVRA with FT on the dash.. but, of course *I* did not NEED to see the FT info. I could see it fine when driving pace laps, even though it was quite a ways out of my 'racing view'.. but not sure I would notice it in the heat of battle in the middle of a pack of cars... It was also confusing to me since it seemed to alternate what it was showing and I had no training of what the screen was supposed to mean. Some were obvious, but others, not so much. IMHO, FT would have to add a 'test mode' (maybe it's already there) for driver TRAINING to know 'instantly' what each display means and which ones apply TO ME at any given moment.

Any comments from those of you that HAVE used FT during an actual event?

Personally, although F1 uses ALL OPTIONS... Flags + lights, as well as INCAR... I think well placed LIGHT PANELS are the most logical and BEST option for Club Racing. The panels can be placed APPROPRIATELY .. instead of 'only SAFE places' and could be controlled either by Race Control or the corners. RC could control FCY/RED and corners could control (override?) as needed for local needs. THEN the 'signs' could always be in the RACING FIELD OF VIEW.
Steve

[TimH]

Personally, although F1 uses ALL OPTIONS... Flags + lights, as well as INCAR... I think well placed LIGHT PANELS are the most logical and BEST option for Club Racing.

Absolutely. As long as there are corner workers watching the track. When we ran at Montreal the panels could be seen easily a hundred feet before any flags. Once we got close, however, the way the flag was waved gave extra information.

[Steve Davis]

My CRB letter #34902 (Posted to the GCR section)
-------------------
Trying to cram another display into my OW/FV cockpit is almost impossible. Certainly so, unless I spend WEEKS trying to construct a totally new dash .. and even then it would be very difficult.. besides having to take my eyes off the RACING TRACK in order to look down into my cockpit to see it is ... NOT a good thing at all.



Although F1 uses ALL OPTIONS... Flags + lights, as well as INCAR... Well placed LIGHT PANELS are the most logical and BEST option for Club Racing. The panels can be placed APPROPRIATELY .. instead of 'only SAFE places' and could be controlled either by Race Control or the corners. RC could control FCY/RED and corners could control (override?) as needed for local needs. THEN the 'signs' could always be in the driver's RACING FIELD OF VIEW.


Yes.. it would mean that some track owners would be required to update their facility, but it really IS needed. Large LIGHT PANELS are readily available (https://www.mylaps.com/timing-soluti...l/marshalling/) that can be installed that are easily visible long before a flag could be seen.. and most likely before an INCAR light would be noticed. There is a limit to how many different places you should expect a DRIVER to look at for any given group of milliseconds on the track at speed. The panels are the most logical method to achieve the desired goal.


The tracks should WANT to have a system like this THAT WORKS. FT is a poor substitute for doing this job CORRECTLY.

Stevan Davis 56649

[Hardingfv32]

FT is much more than just flag station displays.

If the driver cannot view the display, then you lose the possibility of a virtual pace car being used. We are back to black flags, etc.

So we have some formula cars not be able to mount the display in driver view. Race control could assume this and use black flags, etc. for all formula groups while all the other classes/groups use the full time savings advantages of the system. Not the end of the world.

i am sure that race control is going to want a system mounted in every car no matter what. They want car location info and PUY reporting capabilities on all cars.

Sound like a solution?

Brian

[Steve Davis]

i am sure that race control is going to want a system mounted in every car no matter what. They want car location info and PUY reporting capabilities on all cars.

Sound like a solution?
Brian

I hadn't considered that.. I guess that makes my letter inconsequential (what's new?), since it is directed at a different goal .. to the benefit of the DRIVERS rather than Stewards.

[Steve Demeter]

That is a tremendous idea. Seriously great!!!

[Steve Davis]

...
So we have some formula cars not be able to mount the display in driver view. Race control could assume this and use black flags, etc. for all formula groups while all the other classes/groups use the full time savings advantages of the system. Not the end of the world.

Maybe not the end of the world, but the LIGHT PANELS suggested in my letter would make racing SAFER for Drivers, workers and spectators.. Adding PUY confirmation will only reduce the workload for Stewards... but if we had LIGHT PANELS, their workload would already be reduced due to FEWER missed flags. IMHO, the object is to make racing SAFER as well as reduce the need for F&C volunteers.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

You need graphic info to get the full value of this system.

I'll take a picture of my dash and maybe you could suggest where I stick it

Okay - took a couple of pictures from my perspective. The camera was actually higher than my eyes but approximates the lower part of what I can see. I actually cannot see the portion below the dash (the camera angle does).

So, where can I mount and see this thing? As you can see, compared to Bob's picture, my dash and wheel are much higher because they have to be.

There are many that have a wheel mounted display that obstructs a view of the front hoop area.

Picture with no hands.....
DashView1_s.jpg

What a hand in place.....
DASHvIEW2_s.jpg

Yep - not any room behind the hands anyway....
DashViewtop_s.jpg

Thoughts on how I'm going to make this work?

[Hardingfv32]

Maybe not the end of the world, but the LIGHT PANELS suggested in my letter would make racing SAFER

The Flagtronic system is fully integrated with the use of light panels. Should SCCA race ONLY at tracks that have light panels is a different can of worms. An idea worthy of a letter.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

There are many that have a wheel mounted display that obstructs a view of the front hoop area.

Thoughts on how I'm going to make this work?

Mount it to one side and accept that it is not in the most ideal viewing position. Everyone is going to have to have the Flagtronic system on/in their car. I doubt that there is going to be a critic about the quality of the viewing position.

So maybe the display is not going to be your first indication of a flag situation, but once you know something is up you can assign some bandwidth to the poorly positioned display. At minimum this would not be any worse than the current situation of no display.

If formula cars have display placement issues, then they are going to have to live with these issues.... unless you want to spring for an expensive front hoop mounted display blade. With a limited market that is going to be very expensive.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Picture with no hands.....

There is a rule that states the steering wheel cannot be above the front hoop (actual metal hoop) using a HORIZONTAL plane. This is not the front to rear hoop test.

In this case, is this type of steering wheel a method of gaining more clearance? Is it assumed that the missing section of wheel is a straight line between the two nob ends or is there an imaginary curve used?

Brian

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Mount it to one side and accept that it is not in the most ideal viewing position. Everyone is going to have to have the Flagtronic system on/in their car. I doubt that there is going to be a critic about the quality of the viewing position.

So, below my left hand is my switch panel, fire pull and ARB adjuster. Which do I give up? On the right is the shifter. I can't take my right hand off the wheel and move to the shifter with something in the way. My left hand never leaves the wheel. I flick the switches and adjust the ARB with my right hand.

So maybe the display is not going to be your first indication of a flag situation, but once you know something is up you can assign some bandwidth to the poorly positioned display. At minimum this would not be any worse than the current situation of no display.

The point of implementing this is to improve things. Not to spend money for no effect. If we are going to go this route I don't want to be punished for PUY when I can see the display and I can't yet see the flag.

If formula cars have display placement issues, then they are going to have to live with these issues.... unless you want to spring for an expensive front hoop mounted display blade. With a limited market that is going to be very expensive.

Maybe if the repackage the product into components:
Control box and receiver
Standard display
CAN Integration
Strip light display

As was discussed, integrating it with a CAN system is realistically the only way for me to implement and that's going to cost me a bucket of cash as was previously discussed.

[Hardingfv32]

1) I should have stated mount on the outside of the body/front hoop.

2) This does improve things for the vast majority of SCCA classes/drivers, race control and race track management. That fact that some formula car owners do not get the best bang for their buck is not going to register with the majority of SCCA members or officials. A few unhappy formula car owners is not going to move the needle. In this case rightfully so.

3) Sure parts can be changed for formula car owners, but it is going to cost more. Is there much of a marked for such an effort? Is it really needed?

Brian

[DaveW]

This won't work for me, but for those with nothing mounted on the steering wheel in the way, if there were an FT with the connectors on the bottom or end, it could be mounted in the center of the steering wheel.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

1) I should have stated mount on the outside of the body/front hoop.

2) This does improve things for the vast majority of SCCA classes/drivers, race control and race track management. That fact that some formula car owners do not get the best bang for their buck is not going to register with the majority of SCCA members or officials. A few unhappy formula car owners is not going to move the needle. In this case rightfully so.

3) Sure parts can be changed for formula car owners, but it is going to cost more. Is there much of a marked for such an effort? Is it really needed?

1. Well I was looking for a real solution.
2. I will bet there is going to be resistance among some tin-toppers as well. Isn't this the first mandated driver electronics in the cockpit/car?
3. My suggestion of 'modularizing' the product would probably benefit others too. They could probably sell it to the motorcycle racers too.

You seem to think I don't want this system. I'm fine with the idea. I just do not like the implementation in it's current form.
Luckily I have about 18 months.

If they do not come up with a solution for me and mandate I have it, I'll do like you suggest and place it in a non optimal viewing location. I'll zip tie it to the rollbar (I might be able to see it in the mirror) or under my cowling somewhere.

After all, it's more important to have it than for it to be usable.

[Hardingfv32]

I am not sure the unit can be mount on a steering wheel. There is probably a signal strength issue when the init antenna moves of of vertical. There is a installation warning about this.

How about just mounting it to the side on top of the body/hoop? Not ideal for viewing, but it gets the unit on the car. It should not bother your forward vision. Accept that this unit's installation is not going to be perfect for you.

I need to learn more about the antenna signal spectrum chart.

Brian

[BeerBudgetRacing]

This won't work for me, but for those with nothing mounted on the steering wheel in the way, if there were an FT with the connectors on the bottom or end, it could be mounted in the center of the steering wheel.

Here's Brian's answer to that.....

A few unhappy formula car owners is not going to move the needle. In this case rightfully so.
Sure parts can be changed for formula car owners, but it is going to cost more. Is there much of a marked for such an effort? Is it really needed?