Flagtronic in car warning light system

[Spengo]

They are trying to have the live stream discussion again tonight with guests including the owner of flagtronics. Questions can be sent to racingwirenetwork@gmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/live/Ruhu1nU...O9uuJGbQ1YseN-

I really like this being able to get rid of most safety cars and black flags thing they're talking about. That is a great benefit for amateur racers where we have our time slot and the race ends when it ends no matter what. We'd probably get our $250 worth of seat time back within a single season.

[problemchild]

I really like this being able to get rid of most safety cars and black flags thing they're talking about. That is a great benefit for amateur racers where we have our time slot and the race ends when it ends no matter what. We'd probably get our $250 worth of seat time back within a single season.

What? This is not getting rid of FCC or BFAs, just helping communication between race control and drivers. We are not replacing the 65 year old relics in race control with 35 year old rocket scientists, merely improving communication to the 65 year old relics. The same decision making process will be in place, in a perfect world, perhaps shortening some BFAs and FCCs.

It could also create more BFAs and FCCs. Sometimes, more information can slow down the process, creating more or longer BFAs and FCCs.

[brian styczynski]

In the podcast they were talking about ability to go code purple 35mph and immediately deploy emergency vehicles instead of waiting for the full field to get behind the pace car, which can take several laps, before wreckers are deployed (some tracks wait 10 minutes before doing anything). I don't think scca has plans to start a code purple program yet, but if they wanted to, flagtronics in every car would be required. The podcast was talking about flagtronic use in NASA and going 14 hours without a FCC.

[Spengo]

What? This is not getting rid of FCC or BFAs, just helping communication between race control and drivers. We are not replacing the 65 year old relics in race control with 35 year old rocket scientists, merely improving communication to the 65 year old relics. The same decision making process will be in place, in a perfect world, perhaps shortening some BFAs and FCCs. It could also create more BFAs and FCCs.

The new "purple 35" mode discussed makes it safe to send out a flat tow or other safety crew to resolve many of the most common racing incidents without going FCC or BFA. Race control can see immediately when all cars have gotten to 35mph making it safe to send crew out and transmit immediately to all drivers once crew is safely off the track. The idea is not to eliminate black flags and safety cars entirely but greatly reduce the number of times we have to use them.

[brian styczynski]

https://vscda.org/flagtronics/

Vscda is also looking into flagtronics and they had some members install as part of the investigation. They put up a page to show example installs, including a FC, vintage FF and vintage FV.

[problemchild]

We are still talking about SCCA people who make the most simple process incredibly complicated. The flagtronic people are promoting their solution in a perfect world, not the SCCA world. This may be helpful in the long run, but it will be a long painful process in the short term, with a lot of money being made at the member's expense..

[BeerBudgetRacing]

https://vscda.org/flagtronics/

Vscda is also looking into flagtronics and they had some members install as part of the investigation. They put up a page to show example installs, including a FC, vintage FF and vintage FV.

The FC in the example is a pre-97 car. Where they mounted it would be directly in front of my display.

I do not like the giant piece of aluminum riveted together in the other example. I can imaging that hurting me some day!

[TimH]

We are still talking about SCCA people who make the most simple process incredibly complicated. The flagtronic people are promoting their solution in a perfect world, not the SCCA world. This may be helpful in the long run, but it will be a long painful process in the short term, with a lot of money being made at the member's expense..

It's been said certain drivers will be able to ignore a yellow light on the dash just as easily as they ignore the yellow waving flags. The difference in this system is that race control will immediately know who they are. If that results in better enforcement it's worth every penny.

[brian styczynski]

The FC in the example is a pre-97 car. Where they mounted it would be directly in front of my display.

I do not like the giant piece of aluminum riveted together in the other example. I can imaging that hurting me some day!

I understand, all of the cars pictured have much more room to work with than the modern counterparts. I am just trying to pass along info as I find it.

[problemchild]

If that results in better enforcement it's worth every penny.

The world will be a better place full of snuggly kittens, butterflies, and rainbows. Why would SCCA suddenly start applying penalties and enforcing rules that they don't do now? Are we so naïve to believe that this expensive tool will transform the keystone cops into Navy seals? Perhaps we can get a set of steak knives with every purchase of this amazing tool?

[DaveW]

I understand, all of the cars pictured have much more room to work with than the modern counterparts. I am just trying to pass along info as I find it.

I checked my Citation for room to put this. In the F-T's current configuration It won't fit. Here's what I emailed F-T:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This unit is too thick (20.5 mm + the 2 buttons) to fit the one location (on the dash panel behind the cut-out portion of the steering wheel) it needs to be in order to be visible. Half that thickness (12-13 mm) would be OK.

Also, my radio's 8" diameter aluminum ground-plane would be above the unit's antenna if it were mounted there, so that may not have worked even if it would have fit.

There is no other apparent location where it would fit and be both visible and have its antenna vertical.

They responded with some mounting options, so I emailed the following back to them:

Thanks, but none of the mounts you show appear to be applicable (with the stand-alone version) to my extremely cramped cockpit. Also, my DAQ system is an old CDS which can't be used with your remote unit, so the stand-alone appears to be my only option. If the stand-alone unit were thinner and could use a remote antenna, I could likely make that work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[DaveW]

The world will be a better place full of snuggly kittens, butterflies, and rainbows. Why would SCCA suddenly start applying penalties and enforcing rules that they don't do now? Are we so naïve to believe that this expensive tool will transform the keystone cops into Navy seals? Perhaps we can get a set of steak knives with every purchase of this amazing tool?

I beg to differ with your opinion. If I can get one to fit where I can see it in my Citation, I think it will be a major help in knowing what's going on, what flags are being displayed, and where they are. Over the years I've missed several flags but luckily missing them has not caused a disaster. I would welcome the enhanced awareness the F-T can provide.

[problemchild]

I beg to differ with your opinion. If I can get one to fit where I can see it in my Citation, I think it will be a major help in knowing what's going on, what flags are being displayed, and where they are. Over the years I've missed several flags but luckily missing them has not caused a disaster. I would welcome the enhanced awareness the F-T can provide.

The part will cost less than $20 to make in these quantities. Right now it is an oversized work in progress that wont fit in many cars. I would agree it is worth developing, but at $50/each, the sellers can still buy nice new houses, rather than Miami mansions. Right now it is an overpriced work in progress, probably several years away from a developed finished product.

[DaveW]

The part will cost less than $20 to make in these quantities. Right now it is an oversized work in progress that wont fit in many cars. I would agree it is worth developing, but at $50/each, the sellers can still buy nice new houses, rather than Miami mansions. Right now it is an overpriced work in progress, probably several years away from a developed finished product.

No argument there. It needs to be able to fit or it can't be used.

[Steve Demeter]

IMHO flagtronics needs to come up with a much more compact unit if anyone expects them to be installed in most formula cars without re engineering and rebuilding the entire cockpit / dash.

The CRB ought to realize this and act appropriately.

I have corresponded with Flagtronics and the VSCDA pics are what they sent me representing them as solutions that Flagtronics had assisted with.

I ma in the boat that there is simply no place to put it.


Also think of this: If you are constatnlyy looking down in the cockpit t5o see what it is telling you, then how can you concentrate properly on driving the cart. For the most part, flag stations are in the normal line of sight.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I just listened to the podcast and I understand the benefits.

Near the beginning when showing the unit they made a comment of 'more to come' regarding the packaging.

[TimH]

Also think of this: If you are constantly looking down in the cockpit to see what it is telling you, then how can you concentrate properly on driving the cart. For the most part, flag stations are in the normal line of sight.

A bright enough flashing light can be way out in my peripheral vision and still get my attention. If it's not on I don't need to look for it. I agree, though, that the big integrated unit is a lot more of a mounting problem than a remote display would be.

[Hardingfv32]

I ma in the boat that there is simply no place to put it.

If I am the CRB working this issue is the answer is very simple.... You mount the unit on top of the body work near or above the top of the steering wheel. All that aero and vision BS is not going to fly when the fastest formula cars in the world all have Halo structures blocking their frontal vision. Obviously does not bother them.

And the drivers are not going to have any issue viewing the display.

Brian

[DaveW]

If I am the CRB working this issue is the answer is very simple.... You mount the unit on top of the body work near or above the top of the steering wheel. All that aero and vision BS is not going to fly when the fastest formula cars in the world all have Halo structures blocking their frontal vision. Obviously does not bother them.

And the drivers are not going to have any issue viewing the display.

Brian

That's easy to say, but, IMO, impractical to mount on top of the bodywork where it would be exposed to rain, stones thrown up by cars ahead, etc. It also would be a major blockage to my vision ahead - it's not a blade like the halo front support, it's 3" wide and over 1" tall, and I barely see over my bodywork now. And as I said previously, it won't fit on the dash panel above the steering wheel.

Your outlook seems to be that AS LONG AS YOU DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE WITH IT, everything is easy to do. It's just not that simple.

[Hardingfv32]

It is is 2.250" wide and machined from billet aluminum. Also sealed very well. I have one apart on my bench at this time. It is going to live just fine on top of the body.

The fact is you do not need the frontal vision that it would block as demonstrated by F1, etc. Yes, it might be your preference to have unobstructed vision, but it is not necessary.

Brian

[E1pix]

<<< Concerned, hope my eyes stop rolling any minute now >>>

[BeerBudgetRacing]

It is is 2.250" wide and machined from billet aluminum. Also sealed very well. I have one apart on my bench at this time. It is going to live just fine on top of the body.

The fact is you do not need the frontal vision that it would block as demonstrated by F1, etc. Yes, it might be your preference to have unobstructed vision, but it is not necessary.

While slapping crap on your car apparently works for you, we should be entitled to install, fit and finish in a manner acceptable to us. That could well be different for each of us since these cars are all unique.

[Bob Wright]

Look at the picture in post #89 again. It's a Van Diemen F2000, was easy to install, is completely separate from any data system (or lack of) and took no particular customizing.

[Agitator]

It is is 2.250" wide and machined from billet aluminum. Also sealed very well. I have one apart on my bench at this time. It is going to live just fine on top of the body.

The fact is you do not need the frontal vision that it would block as demonstrated by F1, etc. Yes, it might be your preference to have unobstructed vision, but it is not necessary.

Brian

Brian,
No offense, but I can't remember the last time you mentioned yourself as a driver. It's one thing to sit in your shop and talk about how simple it is to mount on your bodywork, and that YOU have no problem. Like DaveW, I have limited room in my cockpit, even in a "roomy" FE2. I'm all in favor of Flagtronics, but I don't want to have to upgrade my data system or try to find a subpar way to mount the stand alone unit.

James

[romoman]

I'm sort of sorry that I mentioned it could be integrated in the data. THERE IS NO NEED TO UPDATE YOUR DATA SYSTEM!!! The Flagtronics works all by itself.

[DaveW]

...The fact is you do not need the frontal vision that it would block as demonstrated by F1, etc. Yes, it might be your preference to have unobstructed vision, but it is not necessary.

Brian

<<< Concerned, hope my eyes stop rolling any minute now >>>

Geez...

I'm sorry that you, Brian, seem incapable of understanding other folks issues. Blocking frontal vision with a thin vertical blade is totally different from blocking frontal vision with a 2.25" wide obstruction. I would be unable to see things, for instance, that I wouldn't want to run over while driving on straights. That is totally unsafe and unacceptable.

[DaveW]

Look at the picture in post #89 again. It's a Van Diemen F2000, was easy to install, is completely separate from any data system (or lack of) and took no particular customizing.

Bob, that's your car with your set of clearances, for instance, between knuckles and dash and your width of front hoop. There is NOT ENOUGH ROOM in my Citation (Steve Demeter has the same issue) to install the current stand-alone version any place that it is visible w/o looking down inside the cockpit and taking my eyes off the road, which is the definition of distracted driving. That is illegal on the street and certainly not good practice on the racetrack.

If the F-T were only 1/2" thick, I could move the CDS GPS-2 box and mount the F-T there.

You have to understand that the dash is ~1-foot forward of the cockpit bodywork top rear edge and structure. Mounting it on the frame rail that you see would likely let it make contact with my helmet in an accident, even with using a HANS, plus would be in the way getting into and out of the car.

As I said previously, I will install it if I can make it fit. I would be a good thing to have.

The attached photo was taken from just above where my eyes would be.

[rockbeau25]

Brian,
No offense, but I can't remember the last time you mentioned yourself as a driver.

I don't know when he'd find the time to work on a car, let alone drive it, with all the time he spends on here trolling and arguing with people.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Look at the picture in post #89 again. It's a Van Diemen F2000, was easy to install, is completely separate from any data system (or lack of) and took no particular customizing.

And that position would not work for me.
1. My hand would hit it.
2. I cannot see that position. My dash and wheel are much higher. My hand would be in the way.

I agree with Dave - having to look down would be dangerous. That's why I suggested some sort of external display.

I still think LEDs on the edge of the mirror would work really well. (Post #97)
- They would be in a place I already look.
- They would be seen with my head up - not looking down.

Don't get me wrong. Before watching the podcast and more so after I do think this is good and where we are going.
I just can't see how it's existing format (designed for tin tops) would work for me.

[J Leonard]

I think I have a spot it might fit under the body forward of dash. For those people promoting bolting on top of the body what do you plan to do with that wiring harness and battery? The white plugs facing forward, are they good for 100 mph rain penetration?

[Hardingfv32]

I still think LEDs on the edge of the mirror would work really well. (Post #97)

You need graphic info to get the full value of this system. This system is much more than just flag color indicator.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

I don't know when he'd find the time to work on a car, let alone drive it, with all the time he spends on here trolling and arguing with people.

Too old to drive fast, but I do build a new car every 3-4 years. Also do complete engine development.

I do not understand the trolling complaint. I am not arguing. I always stay on a fact based discussion. Are you trolling if you are enjoying a fact based discussion?

Brian

[Bob Wright]

Dave- Yes, very tight...

Can you move the lap button (I can't tell how thick it is and how much clearance you have between the wheel and the dash) to one side and mount the flagtronics unit next to it? Just speculating...

[Hardingfv32]

Geez...

I'm sorry that you, Brian, seem incapable of understanding other folks issues. Blocking frontal vision with a thin vertical blade is totally different from blocking frontal vision with a 2.25" wide obstruction. I would be unable to see things, for instance, that I wouldn't want to run over while driving on straights. That is totally unsafe and unacceptable.

I understand your issues but I have stated why I believe those issues are not a impediment to my idea.

The current F1 Halo is about 1" wide with the aero covering in place. So yes, it is narrower than the 2.25" display.

There is a medical study on driver muscle fatigue form the use of a Halo. The driver does move his head around to improve vision when using the Halo. This test was done using a simulator. You can do a simple test yourself and verify that it does not take much head movement to see around a 2.25" blockage sitting on top of the front hoop. F1 cars, traveling a much high speeds, have not had any increase of running over debris since the introduction of the Halo.

Brian

[BeerBudgetRacing]

You need graphic info to get the for value of this system. This system is much more than just flag color indicator.

That may be. In the demo the only non-color indicator was the "35" in "purple 35" which I think "purple" could indicate (was there another use of purple?)

I thought the competing product had the 2 ways communication. Where they could send a message or light to a specific car.

That means a data $ystem upgrade. And there is not much in the way of color displays for these cars.

I'll take a picture of my dash and maybe you could suggest where I stick it

[david oleary]

Hello All
Just another question please, Is this another Mandatory Requirement by SCCA?? Just like the rain light issue. i understand it is a standalone unit that does not need to connect to my dashboard correct? So what is the part kit number? where do you buy it? what does it cost?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Hello All
Just another question please, Is this another Mandatory Requirement by SCCA?? Just like the rain light issue. i understand it is a standalone unit that does not need to connect to my dashboard correct? So what is the part kit number? where do you buy it? what does it cost?

https://flagtronics.com/apps/bundles...a-05ea1487d56f

[Agitator]

I'm sort of sorry that I mentioned it could be integrated in the data. THERE IS NO NEED TO UPDATE YOUR DATA SYSTEM!!! The Flagtronics works all by itself.

I'm assuming that was in response to my comment....My point was that (in MY case) I can't find a reasonable way to put the stand alone unit in my car. My understanding (and I'd love to be corrected) is that the other option is to integrate it into a data system. My understanding (again, please correct if I'm wrong) is that my current system (using the SW2 AIM wheel) won't work. I never said, or wrote, that the stand alone Flagtronics unit would't work without updating data systems.

If I don't have a working option for the stand alone unit with the proposed requirement that we use these systems at the Runoffs next year, do I get a pass? (That's a joke)

James

[Rick Kirchner]

it seems like, for non-spec formula cars (spec cars being built in general, for a wider demographic in order to capture as many sales as possible) you would need a much smaller display (possibly linear, maybe even helmet mounted inside the eyeport), a separate receiver, and a separate antenna. Which means two more housings, two more cables, and increased cost.

[DaveW]

...This unit is too thick (20.5 mm + the 2 buttons) to fit the one location (on the dash panel behind the cut-out portion of the steering wheel) it needs to be in order to be visible. Half that thickness (12-13 mm) would be OK.

Also, my radio's 8" diameter aluminum ground-plane would be above the unit's antenna if it were mounted there, so that may not have worked even if it would have fit....

Dave- Yes, very tight...

Can you move the lap button (I can't tell how thick it is and how much clearance you have between the wheel and the dash) to one side and mount the flagtronics unit next to it? Just speculating...

See the 1st quote - that was my 1st choice, to move the GPS-2 box . However, it's too thick to mount where the GPS-2 box is now. That box is ~1/2" thick, and the F-T is about 1". My knuckles would hit it steering.