Flagtronic in car warning light system

[TimH]

There was a car Sunday afternoon that missed the Checkered Flag 3 or 4 laps in a row, they just kept running laps alone on a wet track. I would like to think an in car unit would help.

This.

[Matt Clark]

I can make a protocol and help you out if you want to put them on the same CANbus.

I would be very interested in that too, when you get one done.

As a side note, I did send a message to Flagtronics with some questions, and they were not sure how a display like the GS Dash or MXM would display their messages, since they use colors.
Would it be possible to as an "aftermarket guy" to customize how it displays for our non-color displays?
Perhaps flash all the shift light & warning light LEDs the needed color, then have text pop up saying what the flag is (at least for Local Yellow or FCY)?

[RussMcB]

This sounds interesting (but I'm not sure exactly what it means).

• The Flagtronics system does offer backup timing & scoring data that is currently used if a transponder fails or similar issues arise during a race.

Does it mean a racer's weekend isn't turned upside down if their transponder craps out after many years of hard life?

I also like the idea of my Aim system (MXm in my case) flashing lights triggered by Flagtronics.

[romoman]

I would be very interested in that too, when you get one done.

As a side note, I did send a message to Flagtronics with some questions, and they were not sure how a display like the GS Dash or MXM would display their messages, since they use colors.
Would it be possible to as an "aftermarket guy" to customize how it displays for our non-color displays?
Perhaps flash all the shift light & warning light LEDs the needed color, then have text pop up saying what the flag is (at least for Local Yellow or FCY)?

It's already done. I have been doing it in Trans Am. The dash gets the flagtronics info. You can make alarms or transfer it to an SmartyCam 3 for overlay on the video. The notification of the flags will be based on what your dash can do - MXm and GS Dash could flash colored lights, but not change the screen color. The data is taken in like any other ECU message and has the same alarm functionality.

The integration works with an Evo4s or Evo5 (GS Dash) or the MXm provided the ECU connection is available or available to modify.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I had a thought - as my wife would say "that's dangerous".

How about lights that can be attached to the inside edge of each mirror.

I certainly look at my mirrors more than my dash.

If they had a remote light output.... (and remote antenna)

Probably wouldn't take much in the wiring. 4 LEDs in some sort of streamline case (1" x 3/8") that can be glued or riveted.
That way the main box could be remotely mounted / powered - right next to my 8-track.

[Matt Clark]

It's already done. I have been doing it in Trans Am. The dash gets the flagtronics info. You can make alarms or transfer it to an SmartyCam 3 for overlay on the video. The notification of the flags will be based on what your dash can do - MXm and GS Dash could flash colored lights, but not change the screen color. The data is taken in like any other ECU message and has the same alarm functionality.

The integration works with an Evo4s or Evo5 (GS Dash) or the MXm provided the ECU connection is available or available to modify.

Perfect. When Flagtronics shows what the small form factor units are like, I will probably get one.
Might not be in place every weekend, depending on what series we are running with that weekend... but I am guessing next year will utilize them more weekends than not.

I had a thought - as my wife would say "that's dangerous".

How about lights that can be attached to the inside edge of each mirror.

I certainly look at my mirrors more than my dash.

If they had a remote light output.... (and remote antenna)

Probably wouldn't take much in the wiring. 4 LEDs in some sort of streamline case (1" x 3/8") that can be glued or riveted.
That way the main box could be remotely mounted / powered - right next to my 8-track.

That could be interesting as well, because then other drivers might also see those easier if you are in a tight pack & battle.

[Steve Demeter]

But if I understand the general gist of this thread, to make the Flagtronics work, one needs more than just the ft system,like a data system or something for the signal from race control or wherever to tell the light n your dash to turn on,, Right?

[David Ferguson]

No it has it's own LED display -- but it's really designed for dash mounting on enclosed cockpit cars. It could be mounted out of sight, if you can program the CAN input on your dash appropriately.

I will say their protocol has lots of status info, so it could be flashing / indicating all the time.

[vtjballeng]

I'm part of the flagtronics crew and attempting to continue answering some of the open questions here .

• The Flagtronics FT200 is a standalone system. Nothing else is required. No fees. No subscription. No software charges.
• Using GPS09C will be available in the future. Since AiM opened this up with a new offering, the GPS09C OPEN. There is little standardization in the world of GPS communication and we need high quality, high update rate, reliable data for our application.
• We do operate over CAN Bus and will have AiM built in integration. Currently, you can display warnings on an AiM dash via the screen or buttons on the sides or top.
• We do have an FRP install example
• FT200 has CAN Bus programmability so it can come in over pre-existing ECU busses.
• Thank @romoman for answer technical questions here!
• There are a lot of situations in which an FT200 helps that is not apparent to a driver. We can see when a car is stopped in the middle of the track around a blind corner. We can see wrecks. We can see who hit with what severity to help those in critical need first.
• With an FT200 you can see when another car is blocking your view to a flag stand. Some of my drivers have run into this before the Flagtronics system.
• Helmet visor is on the roadmap but not near term
• Since the question of subscription, fees, and cost is recurring here - NO SUBSCRIPTION! Flagtronics is the only system in the US and, as far as I'm aware, in the world that comes without a subscription. Again here, we're also racers and we know how people feel about this. We have some really old transponders we share among friends for the same reasons you do. Standalone system with no other fees or requirements. We do not wish to gatekeep safety.
• We are working on smaller formula car packaging. We can get smaller packaging due to the way we do our boards internally. An important detail is being able to still convey more complex flags such as black flag, meatball, etc in an intuitive way. Keep in mind the current packaging is already small.
• Our current black flag indication shows "BF" on the panels and FT200, is flashing, and has a high level of contrast and movement.
• SOP is to throw a checkered flag at start/finish that appears at the start/finish station and at cars in the start/finish zone. If we have a runner, we will often choose to throw either full course checkered flag or full course black flag to get the runner back in quickly. We've saved several laps multiple times in runner scenarios.
• You can choose alarm LEDs with colors and various patterns or text alarms or direct graphics on several dashes from AiM, MoTeC, Bosch, ECUMaster, etc to indicate a flag state.
• Usually T&S will try to manually count laps if a racer's transponder fails but this isn't always possible. We have saved some of those racer's events by using our data.

PXL_20230527_190919802-4.jpg

[924RACR]

Now mandated for the 2024 Runoffs, per the Fastrack just released.

So is it a good thing or a bad thing that it doesn't say it has to be visible, just in the car???

Note also that the rule MANDATES the FT200.

So if you come up with a more compact display, you'd better call it the same... thanks to SCCA's genius ability to plan ahead... LOL

REALLY feeling burned by the FIA rule right now...

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I'm part of the flagtronics crew and attempting to continue answering some of the open questions here

Thanks for the picture but I'm not sure how I would see that with my hand on the wheel !

That picture also points out that my idea of lights on the mirrors would be SUPERIOR as you can keep your head up.

Q: If you get one of these and integrate it, how do you test it?

Q: If these transmit GPS data, etc., can these eventually replace the current beacons?

I'll let you get busy - you only have a few months before the runoffs.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Now mandated for the 2024 Runoffs, per the Fastrack just released.

So is it a good thing or a bad thing that it doesn't say it has to be visible, just in the car???

Note also that the rule MANDATES the FT200.

So if you come up with a more compact display, you'd better call it the same... thanks to SCCA's genius ability to plan ahead... LOL

REALLY feeling burned by the FIA rule right now...

Having this forced on us so quickly is BS, It's a new technology, and it should certainly be proven out by the early adopters before we're all forced to pay $250+ to implement. This hasn't even been used at an SCCA race yet...

I think people are in for a shock when they figure out what it's going to cost to put this into an existing system via CAN bus. To add a CAN bus port on my old Motec I had to re-do a section of wire harness and probably spent $300+ on wire, connectors, heat shrink, boots, ect. just to add a CAN channel.

Even better is my old Motec is not compatible with this system, so I need to find room for the unit, all the wiring, and a separate GPS antenna. I'll have 2 GPS antennas on my car now. More crap to maintain. Awesome.

[Tim Minor]

The club needs to reconsider this rule change.I was asked at time of registration for the Runoff’s whether I chose to participate in their new system and I opted not to.I thought it should be implemented next year so everyone could plan for this Major investment.I have paid my entry and I consider the matter closed.Please call / Email the club to have this changed to next season so more planning can take place.I’m not against it,but it does add another cost to people who are interested in getting involved in Racing in our Club.Are other Clubs mandating this in such a hasty manner,I think not
Respectfully
Tim Minor Fc88

[romoman]

Having this forced on us so quickly is BS, It's a new technology, and it should certainly be proven out by the early adopters before we're all forced to pay $250+ to implement. This hasn't even been used at an SCCA race yet...

I think people are in for a shock when they figure out what it's going to cost to put this into an existing system via CAN bus. To add a CAN bus port on my old Motec I had to re-do a section of wire harness and probably spent $300+ on wire, connectors, heat shrink, boots, ect. just to add a CAN channel.

Even better is my old Motec is not compatible with this system, so I need to find room for the unit, all the wiring, and a separate GPS antenna. I'll have 2 GPS antennas on my car now. More crap to maintain. Awesome.

The cost is completely dependent on the install. I've done the integration for the cost of a DTM connector and done it where it was probably $100. If you had a FV with an S2DL, there would be no cost.

And remember that the integration is not required or necessary!

Thanks for the picture but I'm not sure how I would see that with my hand on the wheel !

That picture also points out that my idea of lights on the mirrors would be SUPERIOR as you can keep your head up.

Q: If you get one of these and integrate it, how do you test it?

Q: If these transmit GPS data, etc., can these eventually replace the current beacons?

I'll let you get busy - you only have a few months before the runoffs.

There is a test mode on the FT200 that goes through the flags for testing purposes.

What mirrors do you have? How do you propose to A. Include the wiring to the mirror and B. Fit an LED into the glass?

[Mike B]

The club needs to reconsider this rule change.I was asked at time of registration for the Runoff’s whether I chose to participate in their new system and I opted not to.I thought it should be implemented next year so everyone could plan for this Major investment.I have paid my entry and I consider the matter closed.Please call / Email the club to have this changed to next season so more planning can take place.I’m not against it,but it does add another cost to people who are interested in getting involved in Racing in our Club.Are other Clubs mandating this in such a hasty manner,I think not
Respectfully
Tim Minor Fc88

The Runoffs mandate is for 2024, not this year.

[Bob Wright]

The above picture of an installation is my Van Diemen. It took me less than 1 hour, two zip ties, a piece of velcro and a bit of ingenuity. I can see it very well with my hands on the steering wheel, yet it is not intrusive. It compliments the light panels and flags around the track but does not distract my attention from them.

It was live at the Trans Am weekend at Road America two weeks ago and took about one session to become part of my overall spatial awareness. All good. Don't try to over-analyze it; its not that difficult and it is the future as we have fewer and fewer flaggers showing up at tracks.

The cost is equivalent to about 1 tire

[BeerBudgetRacing]

What mirrors do you have? How do you propose to A. Include the wiring to the mirror and B. Fit an LED into the glass?

Thanks.

I have some similar to these:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...sp?RecID=11025

What I would suggest is mounting on the edge of the mirror housing below or cockpit side, run the wire down the stem and heat shrink it to the back of the stem. You then of course need to put the wiring through the bodywork.

MirrorFlagtronic.jpg

Everything is a compromise, right?

[problemchild]

When you combine this and the rainlight, then factor in installation labor, we have added $500+ to the cost of participation. While this is insignificant to those spending $5-10K per race event (or much more) there are still racers trying to spend $5-10K per season. These added costs are like spitting on those racers. "If you don't like it, quit racing with SCCA."

[Steve Demeter]

Amen Greg!!!!

Except I spend more like $3-4K

[Steve Demeter]

I'm part of the flagtronics crew and attempting to continue answering some of the open questions here .

• The Flagtronics FT200 is a standalone system. Nothing else is required. No fees. No subscription. No software charges.
• Using GPS09C will be available in the future. Since AiM opened this up with a new offering, the GPS09C OPEN. There is little standardization in the world of GPS communication and we need high quality, high update rate, reliable data for our application.
• We do operate over CAN Bus and will have AiM built in integration. Currently, you can display warnings on an AiM dash via the screen or buttons on the sides or top.
• We do have an FRP install example
• FT200 has CAN Bus programmability so it can come in over pre-existing ECU busses.
• Thank @romoman for answer technical questions here!
• There are a lot of situations in which an FT200 helps that is not apparent to a driver. We can see when a car is stopped in the middle of the track around a blind corner. We can see wrecks. We can see who hit with what severity to help those in critical need first.
• With an FT200 you can see when another car is blocking your view to a flag stand. Some of my drivers have run into this before the Flagtronics system.
• Helmet visor is on the roadmap but not near term
• Since the question of subscription, fees, and cost is recurring here - NO SUBSCRIPTION! Flagtronics is the only system in the US and, as far as I'm aware, in the world that comes without a subscription. Again here, we're also racers and we know how people feel about this. We have some really old transponders we share among friends for the same reasons you do. Standalone system with no other fees or requirements. We do not wish to gatekeep safety.
• We are working on smaller formula car packaging. We can get smaller packaging due to the way we do our boards internally. An important detail is being able to still convey more complex flags such as black flag, meatball, etc in an intuitive way. Keep in mind the current packaging is already small.
• Our current black flag indication shows "BF" on the panels and FT200, is flashing, and has a high level of contrast and movement.
• SOP is to throw a checkered flag at start/finish that appears at the start/finish station and at cars in the start/finish zone. If we have a runner, we will often choose to throw either full course checkered flag or full course black flag to get the runner back in quickly. We've saved several laps multiple times in runner scenarios.
• You can choose alarm LEDs with colors and various patterns or text alarms or direct graphics on several dashes from AiM, MoTeC, Bosch, ECUMaster, etc to indicate a flag state.
• Usually T&S will try to manually count laps if a racer's transponder fails but this isn't always possible. We have saved some of those racer's events by using our data.

PXL_20230527_190919802-4.jpg

So all I need is a flagtronics system? No existing data system or fancy dash? And how much does the flagtronics system cost?

[Matt Clark]

At the risk of fanning more flames between here & the FIA rain light thread, I do kinda see a bit of an idea possibility that *could* be taken reasonably since the topic & discussion came up.

It has been mentioned about lights on the mirrors, but also the hurdles of then wiring/attaching/etc.
Instead of at the mirror, what about inexpensive yellow lights on the back of the car, triggered by the Flagtronics?
No, the driver obviously would not see their own light, so it doesn't help if you are on your own... but the main time flags are missed, are when you are in a fight. Maybe you won't miss one directly in your face, where you are focusing on.

If Flagtronics could just have a couple more wires for us to tie to, a $15 LED near the back of the car would alert everyone trailing to an issue as they come to a Caution Zone or FCY. Some pro series do this with their red lights, but we could differentiate from our rain lights. Keep in mind that I am a FV guy & we almost always have several cars around us. Heck, if we are given flexibility from Flagtronics for external lights... mount some small yellow LEDs on our beam towers to get attention.
Just a thought, since all this stuff is now a live discussion.

https://www.amazon.com/Partsam-Trailer-indicator-Waterproof-Installation/dp/B00YLWX0SC/ref=d_m_crc_dp_lf_d_t1_sccl_3_1/134-6541518-3723908?pd_rd_w=kB7qo&content-id=amzn1.sym.5d471845-5073-424b-b27b-c0676f48a016&pf_rd_p=5d471845-5073-424b-b27b-c0676f48a016&pf_rd_r=PB1VD10MAK49JSCHRTTF&pd_rd_wg =Q7oHb&pd_rd_r=cbf99c6a-8fd1-4d18-a9b8-a22ccfb4a25b&pd_rd_i=B00YLWX0SC&psc=1

[Goallie11]

Lights in/on the mirrors is something done on some motorcycles. For example, here's a set for Goldwings:

https://wingstuff.com/products/127-k...hts-for-gl1800

I have a pair on my and honestly don't see them but if they were in the inboard side of the mirror may be more visible.

[pacratt]

PXL_20230527_190919802-4.jpg

Your photo shows the unit mounted on an angle. I was told the units, with their stubby antennae, won't transmit properly unless mounted level. Unless I was misinformed...

Glenn

[924RACR]

Wow, that's a roomy cockpit! No such real estate here... not the ideal in-cockpit pic I'm afraid, but when you see where the wheel is, add in hands with gloves, realize that my knuckles will hit the frame rails (for scale), then contemplate where the unit would go...

[Hardingfv32]

1) Early adoption is not issue. This system is currently in use by many other racing organizations. A very simple system that is not hard to use. The manufacture is also very active monitoring its use/adoption.

2) I would think all this talk about CAN communication is pointless unless your current system has a colored display.

3) Adding a yellow light is not going not going to be of much value. There is a lot information that the system can provide that you would be missing.

I think that one of the most important features is controlling the speed of the field under yellow conditions. This goes to the heart of what emergency crews desire from the competitors. The Code 35 status actively helps the driver reach and maintain 35 mph for example. A single warning light is not going to be able such information.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

1) Early adoption is not issue. This system is currently in use by many other racing organizations. A very simple system that is not hard to use. The manufacture is also very active monitoring its use/adoption.

2) I would think all this talk about CAN communication is pointless unless your current system has a colored display.

3) Adding a yellow light is not going not going to be of much value. There is a lot information that the system can provide that you would be missing.

I think that one of the most important features is controlling the speed of the field under yellow conditions. This goes to the heart of what emergency crews desire from the competitors. The Code 35 status actively helps the driver reach and maintain 35 mph for example. A single warning light is not going to be able such information.

Brian

1- agreed, to an extent. but implementation is still hard for many of us.
2- we still have a lot of colored LEDs to make blink & a screen that we can read a detailed messaged on when the LEDs alert us to look.
3- very much disagree. it will alert you to get your head on a swivel for people with simpler dashes, and could possibly see the light on the cars at the other end of the straight entering a yellow zone.

[Steve Demeter]

The light in Matt's post #101 could be red and be used in place of the $200 FIA rainlight

[DaveW]

So all I need is a flagtronics system? No existing data system or fancy dash? And how much does the flagtronics system cost?

$249 stated previously for the current version of the stand-alone unit.

[Steve Demeter]

Thanks I missed it

[brian styczynski]

While not an official SCCA podcast, it looks like the Inside the SCCA podcast will be discussing flagtronics with some guests live tonight

https://www.youtube.com/live/85uh8qSH0lo?feature=share

[J Leonard]

When you combine this and the rainlight, then factor in installation labor, we have added $500+ to the cost of participation. While this is insignificant to those spending $5-10K per race event (or much more) there are still racers trying to spend $5-10K per season. These added costs are like spitting on those racers. "If you don't like it, quit racing with SCCA."

Don't forget the AIM data bracket and a camera.

[Spengo]

While not an official SCCA podcast, it looks like the Inside the SCCA podcast will be discussing flagtronics with some guests live tonight

https://www.youtube.com/live/85uh8qSH0lo?feature=share

Is there a saved recording? I am interested to watch but the time slot conflicted with dinnertime with the family.

[CheckeredFlag]

Normally, they're found on their YouTube channel:

The Racing Network - YouTube

But that one appears to have been deleted for some reason.

[brian styczynski]

Is there a saved recording? I am interested to watch but the time slot conflicted with dinnertime with the family.

I believe they had technical issues and the stream kept going down. Brian said he is rescheduling with the 2 guests but I am not sure of the date

[Steve Demeter]

I have been looking at the Flagtronics site and the display looks really big. What am I missing. How big is the actual light that has to be mounted where the driver can see it? Have very little room.

[Dave Welsh]

To get a better idea about flagtronics, from in car videos, connecting to a CAN bus, how the system looks on an AIM dash, to how the controllers work, among much more info, go to youtube and search flagtronics. There are many videos available there.

Get informed.......

I am a corner marshal and have used the flagtronics system, along with the similar system used by F1 and IndyCar. As a marshal I prefer flagtronics.

Flagtronics will not replace corner marshals. It cannot detect changes is surface conditions, see debris, see fluids leak, have a sense of smell, cannot hear, etc.

One very important feature is in the event of a crash the system immediately informs race control of a crash, the g force of the crash, along with reporting the location of the carsh with 20cm accuracy.

[tgaluardi]

However, the guy that misses/ignores the yellow flag will miss/ignore the yellow light!

[rockbeau25]

However, the guy that misses/ignores the yellow flag will miss/ignore the yellow light!

The guy that misses both should not have a racing license in the first place.

[Hardingfv32]

I can see in the future, system software that records/documents every PUY. No reason that the a history of PUY's for a given car (car log number) could not be available for the stewards to review and act upon.

This system has so many possible uses.

Brian

[brian styczynski]

They are trying to have the live stream discussion again tonight with guests including the owner of flagtronics. Questions can be sent to racingwirenetwork@gmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/live/Ruhu1nU...O9uuJGbQ1YseN-