Flagtronic in car warning light system

[Rick Kirchner]

This seems like a pretty simple application.

I say again, this is neither simple or well understood. Human factors is far more complex than most people think. If it was easy, you could buy a new microwave and not go bonkers for two weeks trying to cook something, or that car infotainment system wouldn't be trying to kill you to dim the screen at night. I've seen F-15E guys so task saturated and concentrating that they ignored not only all of the missile warning gear going off in the cockpit but multiple radio calls from others observing the engagement. To quote the Red Air defense commander "those guys are so ****in dead".

If you have no flashing lights in the cock[pit now, then flashing lights may get your attention. If you have flashing lights now, then the size, color, placement, etc, all will have bearing on your ability to perceive. When it comes to electronic flags, remember that the human brain is particularly adept to change detection (i.e motion). The flaggers communicate to you with motion, and there's a lot more info in the way they swing the things than is obvious. Flashing is motion - sort of.

Trackside warning lights? At club level tracks, those are called obstacles. Most likely they'd need to be in the current corner bunker locations - after all, those were chosen for sight lines and the current crop of drivers are familiar with those locations, (although there may be better locations if the safety of a human flagger isn't a consideration). Another consideration might be hanging them from overhead cables with the supports out of a racing impact zone.

[924RACR]

There is absolutely a massive disconnect between the idiots designing the info systems and the idiots being subjected to them (drivers/pilots).

I work in automotive engineering, safety systems (what the ignorant call "nannies"). We have very little info interface to the driver, but that's OK (except when it's added by the OEM and inevitably overdone). It's truly, pathetically hilarious how the very nature of the alerts can actually distract the operator from the eminent collision etc. they're trying to bring attention to; buzzers, beeps, or vibrating seats making the driver fumble for the switch to turn that stupidity off instead of looking at the car/obstacle etc getting too close. More likely to create the very crashes they are supposed to prevent.

Yet the engineers working on those systems don't go on a racetrack, usually can barely get a car out of the parking lot without hitting things (have directly observed this myself), if they even have a driver's license... and they're making all the decisions on these systems.

In our systems (ABS/TCS/ESC), we properly understand that we need to be unobtrusive, and require absolutely zero training for the operator to successfully use our systems. All the other systems seem to want to be as obtrusive as possible, with no qualms about the driver having to learn how to access and operate the system. User manual? You mean, LOSER manual?!?

It just keeps getting worse every day, as the quality of the human design resources continues to fall...

[Peter Olivola]

Trackside warning lights? At club level tracks, those are called obstacles. Most likely they'd need to be in the current corner bunker locations - after all, those were chosen for sight lines and the current crop of drivers are familiar with those locations, (although there may be better locations if the safety of a human flagger isn't a consideration). Another consideration might be hanging them from overhead cables with the supports out of a racing impact zone.

You might consider discussing that with those who use and run High Plains Raceway. They've been using trackside lights for nearly a decade. In season, that track is in use seven days a week and when not fully staffed the lights are operated from a central location using TV monitors. I suspect their experience would differ from your opinion.

[DaveW]

There is absolutely a massive disconnect between the idiots designing the info systems and the idiots being subjected to them (drivers/pilots).

I work in automotive engineering, safety systems (what the ignorant call "nannies"). We have very little info interface to the driver, but that's OK (except when it's added by the OEM and inevitably overdone). It's truly, pathetically hilarious how the very nature of the alerts can actually distract the operator from the eminent collision etc. they're trying to bring attention to; buzzers, beeps, or vibrating seats making the driver fumble for the switch to turn that stupidity off instead of looking at the car/obstacle etc getting too close. More likely to create the very crashes they are supposed to prevent.

Yet the engineers working on those systems don't go on a racetrack, usually can barely get a car out of the parking lot without hitting things (have directly observed this myself), if they even have a driver's license... and they're making all the decisions on these systems.

In our systems (ABS/TCS/ESC), we properly understand that we need to be unobtrusive, and require absolutely zero training for the operator to successfully use our systems. All the other systems seem to want to be as obtrusive as possible, with no qualms about the driver having to learn how to access and operate the system. User manual? You mean, LOSER manual?!?

It just keeps getting worse every day, as the quality of the human design resources continues to fall...

Re driving on the street - I don't have a smart phone, and I don't like all the "driver aids" which, as you said, can distract drivers from the task at hand, i.e., driving. I don't have stuff hanging from the mirror, or anything else in the car that could be a distraction.

I'm the same way working on projects - I like to concentrate on what I'm doing. When I'm in the shop, I often don't even turn on the radio. Same working on income tax or any other major project on the computer. I just don't like distractions.

[Rick Kirchner]

You might consider discussing that with those who use and run High Plains Raceway. They've been using trackside lights for nearly a decade. In season, that track is in use seven days a week and when not fully staffed the lights are operated from a central location using TV monitors. I suspect their experience would differ from your opinion.

Well considering I said they'd either be in the current bunker locations or not, what did they do, put them in a space/time warp?

[John Nesbitt]

I say again, this is neither simple or well understood. Human factors is far more complex than most people think. ..

If you have no flashing lights in the cock[pit now, then flashing lights may get your attention. If you have flashing lights now, then the size, color, placement, etc, all will have bearing on your ability to perceive. When it comes to electronic flags, remember that the human brain is particularly adept to change detection (i.e motion). The flaggers communicate to you with motion, and there's a lot more info in the way they swing the things than is obvious. Flashing is motion - sort of.

Trackside warning lights? At club level tracks, those are called obstacles. Most likely they'd need to be in the current corner bunker locations - after all, those were chosen for sight lines and the current crop of drivers are familiar with those locations, (although there may be better locations if the safety of a human flagger isn't a consideration). Another consideration might be hanging them from overhead cables with the supports out of a racing impact zone.

You might consider discussing that with those who use and run High Plains Raceway. They've been using trackside lights for nearly a decade. In season, that track is in use seven days a week and when not fully staffed the lights are operated from a central location using TV monitors. I suspect their experience would differ from your opinion.

We should not conflate two separate goals.

1. Maintaining necessary ‘flagging’ at turns, driven by the decline in flagger count.

2. Providing an improved means of communicating with drivers.

On the first, there are some obvious advantages to trackside lights over in-car. Total expense for organizers and entrants would very likely be less. Configuration, setup, and control can vary by track characteristics. It removes a barrier to new entrants. It is one less thing for drivers to buy, install, and maintain.

Keep in mind also that, if SCCA goes the in-car route, it will necessarily standardize on a single device. That hands the vendor a monopoly with very high costs to change. That is an invitation for the vendor to extract monopoly profits. See also: transponders.

On the second, we are talking about human factors. Will the driver see the lights, and will s/he respond appropriately? We have deep experience with some drivers not seeing/responding to flags. I am not sanguine that they will do any better with lights, trackside or in-car.

My direct experience is that the best, and perhaps only, way to deal with this problem is by delivering severe consequences for failure – probation and suspension. Again, my direct experience is that consistently applying severe penalties magically improves flag response. If flag behavior is a real problem, then it is up to event officials to have the intestinal fortitude to confront it.

[Rick Kirchner]

John, I cannot argue with anything you say here. Especially our experience with monopolies.

I'd say, that the devil is in defining what is adequate to replace the flaggers. Defining what you need in a light system, should you want it to be "as good as or better" than human flaggers is not an easy task.

Take High Plains for example. The only way to determine how effective a signal system compared to flaggers in this scenario, is to have compiled years of detailed data (perhaps with some driver interviews). We know that likely doesn't exist at the required detail, so you could infer performance based on secondary incident data (collisions or offs coming into a flagged position) after correcting for participation levels, weather, etc.

The other way is to take concepts, code them up in a racing sim, and run a lot of people through it, at various levels of driver skill, competitiveness, traffic, fatigue, etc, and NOT do the usual SCCA thing of asking a couple of fast guys and their prep shops what their opinions are.

That's a university level study, something for Crandall, or maybe IUPUI, Purdue, or Rose-Hulman to have a look at (only because those entities have had a deep relationship with motorsports, I'm sure there are a few others). it is something that a succession of masters or PhD thesis could work through and generate some kind of consensus within a few short years.

And given the way universities work these days, they'd form an institute for competition motorsports safety (led of course by a couple of their Profs) and build and market the system....but at least the results would be based on real data.

[Steve Demeter]

Amen brother. pay attention and drive the car

[Peter Olivola]

Well considering I said they'd either be in the current bunker locations or not, what did they do, put them in a space/time warp?

Without direct knowledge you're posing a strawman argument. As I said, talk to them.

[Rick Kirchner]

No, I'm not. According to in-car videos, the lights are positioned at existing corner worker locations. There's a PCA annotated one that has arrows pointing out each one.

Besides, it's not MY job to figure this out. But if this is going to be another "thing" in the next few years, then the club needs to have someone with sufficient technical savvy to do an effective job of it, lest we get stuck with a piece of minimally effective junk and another monopoly position.

[billtebbutt]

I wasn't one. But as I read the arguments for/against an in-car system, it seems to sense that the probability of an erroneous reading/component failure that results in a catastrophic incident is far higher with multiple distributed (in-car) systems vs a single track-owned/managed system? I *think* my logic is directionally correct, but can't conjure up the math....

I'm thinking it would be a lot easier to bullet-proof 10 lights at a track (in terms of operational capability, routine maintenance, etc) than to police/enforce that over the 300 competitors at a given weekend. And the next weekend at that same track, it isn't the same 300 competitors, so there is even less integrity to previous preventative efforts as a season goes on.

And what do we do with the driver who states that his dash didn't alert him to the yellow flag (whether it did or didn't)? Do we audit his in-car system to prove it alerted him and he was at fault? All this seems terrifically complicated to me....

cheers,
bt

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I wasn't one. But as I read the arguments for/against an in-car system, it seems to sense that the probability of an erroneous reading/component failure that results in a catastrophic incident is far higher with multiple distributed (in-car) systems vs a single track-owned/managed system? I *think* my logic is directionally correct, but can't conjure up the math....

I'm thinking it would be a lot easier to bullet-proof 10 lights at a track (in terms of operational capability, routine maintenance, etc) than to police/enforce that over the 300 competitors at a given weekend. And the next weekend at that same track, it isn't the same 300 competitors, so there is even less integrity to previous preventative efforts as a season goes on.

And what do we do with the driver who states that his dash didn't alert him to the yellow flag (whether it did or didn't)? Do we audit his in-car system to prove it alerted him and he was at fault? All this seems terrifically complicated to me....

cheers,
bt

There are really 2 issues being discussed here.

1. Trackside lights in place of corner worker flags. That's your 10 or so lights you are referring to. This is being discussed because of staffing issues.

2. In car indicators. Some people would like in car indicators (flag or otherwise). This IS NOT a substitute for flagging or trackside lights. So you premise of 'fixing' 300, while correct is misplaced. If the driver wants in car indicators that is their problem.

So, the question is really what products since each track would have to make an investment in the tech. Their choice then affects the drivers and what they install in their car.


As for issue 1 - flaggers.

I think a light system can help them and possibly reduce necessary staffing.
BUT, the 'flag' should be able to be indicated by the station AND race control in a primary and backup situation.

As for in car indicators.

The delivery of the data needs to be seamless and not create another job in race control. If this is going to make managing the race difficult or more work we need to nix the idea.

[Dave Welsh]

As mentioned earlier Champcar mandates the use of the Flagtronics system.

Champcar has a 14 hour race at Daytona tomorrow, Saturday April 1. Green flag is 9am EDT.

If one is interested, one can log onto the Champcar website listed below.

Flagtronics Marching Ants - Watch local flagging conditions
from your paddock using your phone or computer
http:/champcar.live

I'll be working as a flag marshal for this event.

Screenshot_20230331_182708_Firefox.jpg

[vtjballeng]

I'm part of the flagtronics crew and attempting to answer some of the hanging questions here.

• Everyone in the Flagtronics core engineering team races. We race NASA, SCCA, ChampCar, LeMons, & more. We work on our own cars and we're engineers. We started this project to make racing safer for ourselves and that turned into a larger project over time.
• Flagtronics CAN Bus integration works with ECUMaster, AiM, MoTeC, Autosports Labs, & much more. We are making presets and trying to make it easier for racers to integrate. We expect to have drop-down options in most popular logging, dash, telemetry, & video systems.
• The Flagtronics standalone display is very small and has been installed in open wheel cars of several types. We will also offer even smaller options in the future.
• The driver's perspective is important. We also see a high level of detail in race control that makes calls faster, safer, and better for everyone on track. We show race control where safety vehicles are and where incidents are. The end result is a safer track and more green flag racing.
• NO SUBSCRIPTION! Flagtronics is the only system in the US and, as far as I'm aware, in the world that comes without a subscription. Again here, we're also racers and we know how people feel about this. We have some really old transponders we share among friends for the same reasons you do.
• We've seen very good compliance under code 35 and similar enforced conditions. We offer this tool to race control and they can choose to do with it. We used to see racers treating code 35 as a yellow flag condition and traveling at 80+mph before we offered compliance tools. Now we see cars traveling near 35mph. The response from safety workers, EMS, and anyone who contributes to pulls has been EXTREMELY positive. Some tracks will offer hot pulls under ENFORCED code 35 that have not done so in recent history. Safety crews feel safer, work faster, and give racers more green flag time.
• The Flagtronics FT200 costs less than a single tire for most racers these days.
• The Flagtronics system offers full track flags, local flags, and individual flags such as courtesy pit, meatball, & black flag. It also offers bidirectional communication to show car position and when a car had an accident or similar. The driver is prompted to press a button indicating they are ok. This allows us to prioritize drivers that are most at risk in a multi-car incident and know if the driver is responsive even when a corner worker can't see the driver.
• The Flagtronics system does offer backup timing & scoring data that is currently used if a transponder fails or similar issues arise during a race.
• Sometimes track radio systems fail and having 2 systems eliminates a single point of failure.
• Flagtronics does and has covered complex tracks like Road America, Ozarks, & COTA with no loss of signal to the driver. It works at these tracks and we offer orgs guidelines on setup.
• The Flagtronics system is unique in offering a graphics capable display with CAN output capability & track-side signboards all in a cohesive, centrally administrated system that a track or org can use easily. We often get feedback on how easy it is to user our inexpensive system as compared to very high dollar systems in top tier racing series.
• Corner marhals are often frustrated that racers don't see them frantically waving a flag in a corner trying to protect them from an incident ahead. We explain to those marhals that this is another tool to get their information directly in front of the driver and/or at a brightly lit signboard in the driver's view.

[brian styczynski]

https://www.scca.com/articles/201745...rm=READ%20MORE

Looks like they are looking at a $250 unit with an option of renting for $50 at the 2023 Runoffs. Not mandatory......yet........

[Mark_Silverberg]

I'm part of the flagtronics crew and attempting to answer some of the hanging questions here.

• Flagtronics CAN Bus integration works with ECUMaster, AiM, MoTeC, Autosports Labs, & much more. We are making presets and trying to make it easier for racers to integrate. We expect to have drop-down options in most popular logging, dash, telemetry, & video systems.
• The Flagtronics standalone display is very small and has been installed in open wheel cars of several types. We will also offer even smaller options in the future.

What the formula car community really needs is a module from flagtronics which can be treated as a can expansion device on an AIM system which uses the native GPS antenna and displays warnings on the AIM dash. I have no problem with using the FT200 system but if I have to have separation between the GPS antennas there is not really a way I can do that with direct line of sight for the flagtronics antenna

[romoman]

What the formula car community really needs is a module from flagtronics which can be treated as a can expansion device on an AIM system which uses the native GPS antenna and displays warnings on the AIM dash. I have no problem with using the FT200 system but if I have to have separation between the GPS antennas there is not really a way I can do that with direct line of sight for the flagtronics antenna

The FT200 has a CAN output, but no input functions. I spearheaded the integration with AiM and can provide the CAN protocol if you want to integrate the FT200 into an AiM product. You can also put the flag status on SmartyCam 3 footage.

Putting the AiM GPS and FT200 GPS next to each should not be a problem. I've seen it that way in probably 2 dozen cars without problem.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The FT200 has a CAN output, but no input functions. I spearheaded the integration with AiM and can provide the CAN protocol if you want to integrate the FT200 into an AiM product. You can also put the flag status on SmartyCam 3 footage.

Putting the AiM GPS and FT200 GPS next to each should not be a problem. I've seen it that way in probably 2 dozen cars without problem.

Whats the oldest AIM that will work with it?
EVO3?
EVO4?
MXL/PISTA/PRO

[Ed Womer]

So is this a stand alone system or an add on to some other expensive electronic gizmo? Other than the transponder and a radio and a electric O2 I have no other electronic stuff in my car. I really don't need the O2 thing since it isn't working after an issue and looking at the exhaust is good enough for me. I also have an LED clearance light that is on when low oil pressure but a warning since I like to look at where I am going and not distractions from gauges.

Ed

They seem to be doing everything to drive old racers away and it is slowly working.

[Mark_Silverberg]

The FT200 has a CAN output, but no input functions. I spearheaded the integration with AiM and can provide the CAN protocol if you want to integrate the FT200 into an AiM product. You can also put the flag status on SmartyCam 3 footage.

Putting the AiM GPS and FT200 GPS next to each should not be a problem. I've seen it that way in probably 2 dozen cars without problem.

I am assuming that the FT200 must come into the AIM unit through the ECU port and if I am already running your TPMS system I would not be able to add the FT200

[problemchild]

I find it amusing that we are installing some lights on the dash (at our cost) for people who cannot react to waving yellow flags that are in our direct line of vision. How often does the average driver look at his dash?

If this is made mandatory, someone is going to make a $hitload of money from it.

[CheckeredFlag]

If this is made mandatory, someone is going to make a $hitload of money from it.

On top of a $200 rain light. That said, I think this $260 Flagtronic system would be money better spent than a $200 rain light because it would be useful all the time in every session. The Flagtronic guys also have way more hardware, software engineering, and wiring involved in their system than a simple taillight.

[Hardingfv32]

...people who cannot react to waving yellow flags that are in our direct line of vision...

Could this be looking into the future..... when there is no one to wave the yellow flag?

Brian

[romoman]

Whats the oldest AIM that will work with it?
EVO3?
EVO4?
MXL/PISTA/PRO

Probably not, but with some work you might be able to. Those systems won't take a custom CAN protocol.

I am assuming that the FT200 must come into the AIM unit through the ECU port and if I am already running your TPMS system I would not be able to add the FT200

No problem putting them together. I can make a protocol and help you out if you want to put them on the same CANbus.

[Steve Demeter]

Some people think racers are made of money NOT TRUE

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Could this be looking into the future..... when there is no one to wave the yellow flag?

Brian

I absolutely think we will end up there - Or at least significantly fewer manned stations.

Some people think racers are made of money NOT TRUE

My racing participation and results are affected by available time and money.
I know I don't have as much time or money for racing as others do and my results reflect that.
New mandatory expenses are setbacks. Money to buy - time to install.

In this case I have very little room for an additional display device - unless I hide it behind my hands - which is pointless.
This means an upgrade to the data system, which means less racing for a while.

So this $260 system is really a $3260 + cost.
I know I'll benefit from the new data system but that is an expense I choose to put off.

I doubt I'm the only one thinking the same thing.

[DaveW]

I have an old CDS system that I use only as an ECU interface to display RPM, oil pressure, water temperature, etc. I have never used a data system for actual data. My data system is my brain and the feel through my hands, body. etc.

I'll have to find a mounting location for a Flagtronics unit when/if they're required, but it won't be easy.

[romoman]

I absolutely think we will end up there - Or at least significantly fewer manned stations.



My racing participation and results are affected by available time and money.
I know I don't have as much time or money for racing as others do and my results reflect that.
New mandatory expenses are setbacks. Money to buy - time to install.

In this case I have very little room for an additional display device - unless I hide it behind my hands - which is pointless.
This means an upgrade to the data system, which means less racing for a while.

So this $260 system is really a $3260 + cost.
I know I'll benefit from the new data system but that is an expense I choose to put off.

I doubt I'm the only one thinking the same thing.

You don't have to upgrade your data system to use the Flagtronics. It's a standalone system that can be integrated with a dash if you want, but it does not have to.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

You don't have to upgrade your data system to use the Flagtronics. It's a standalone system that can be integrated with a dash if you want, but it does not have to.

I understand that, but as I said I have NO place to mount it where I can see it.
I can see the MXL through the cutout in the wheel - no other part of the dash area is visible.

I guess I could plopped on the shock cover - which is unacceptable to me - and in my line of site.

And from the looks of it it is not designed to be in the airflow - I'd have exposed wiring and have to run that through the shock cover, etc. Or I'd have to make some sort of fairing obstructing my view. No - messy.

This is when people say "I'll skip that race."

Don't get me wrong. I don't object to better communications or safety. But the requirements will change participation behavior. (See thread on FC participation)

It would be easier if AIM just acquired one of these companies and integrated the function.

[924RACR]

We very much need an extremely compact standalone display unit for this tech for super-tight cockpits... I don't know where I'll fit it, but if you can produce a colored display around 1"x2" I'll make some room. Might have to have a steering wheel mount option, TBH - and integrating with my dash is doubtful to be workable, as I'm using a Race Technology DL1 and Dash4, which is all LCD (no color)...

I think it's clear to see that this is the writing on the wall, and this absolutely will become mandatory at some point soon; this is just SCCA being unusually nice about easing it in vs. the usual rule update mandating it outright as of Jan 1. No doubt they've been forced into this with the incidents at the Sprints - I honestly give them credit for being more "gentle" with this rollout than usual.

I also still think adding light panels at critical corners like the Kink will still add value.

If drivers can't or won't observe and respond to warnings - they need to be taken off the grid until they learn to pay attention/react accordingly or until they have enough mental bandwidth to spare to be aware of anything beyond the car in front of them.

However, there are still situations where the straight-up visibility of flags is reduced or compromised - be it due to lighting conditions, or traffic, etc, and the Flagtronics unit or similar will give us a path to improve the situation, in a way that is of value to all racers.

[grapefarmeral]

Perhaps they should make it small enough to put on the inside of the helmet visor...

[Ed Womer]

If it is a truly stand alone system that does NOT need an expensive dash then I guess it might be OK. But if it becomes a subscription service time to stop playing with race cars, again.

Since I live in PA I can actually turn my formula first into a street car with some add on's and have one of the coolest street rods of anyone. The local dune buggy manufacture has a special inspection license and they even got a sprint car licensed for someone and I actually saw him on the road to HBG one day.

Ed

[Mark_Silverberg]

No problem putting them together. I can make a protocol and help you out if you want to put them on the same CANbus.[/QUOTE]

I will be in touch to add this update once VSCDA commits to using the flagtronics systems

[FVRacer21]

I think the first step would be lights and signals outside the car. They are already being used and I know they were in place for the Lime Rock TransAm weekend, so maybe some of the FRP Guys can chime in if they found them helpful. A rain warning light could be very helpful at some long tracks….

advantages is they could be put in areas that might be dangerous to workers or hung above the track on wires like the camera systems. Having signals on both sides of the track (flag on one side and light on the other,) would be a big help when multiple cars are together and one might obscure the view of another.

on a separate note, a green/yellow/red/black system would eliminate any advantage a radio system would provide at the start for example. Otoh- one diver would like a radio where he could monitor the control frequency to get immediate updates on track conditions.

ChrisZ

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I was a participant at the FRP / TransAm race at Road America last weekend where this system was used.

I did not have an in-car display setup, and until they are a bit smaller it will be difficult to get one installed due to the clearance between my knuckles and dash while turning the wheel.

My experience with the lighted corner boards started out negative, but by the end of the weekend I began to prefer them to the flaggers. The light boards were mounted about 5 feet above the flagger station. At first I hated them because in a clear course condition the boards are black. I did not like seeing a black rectangle near the flag station as it required some extra mental processing passing each station to know it was the board and not a black flag. However, after a couple of sessions and seeing the panels used in a waiving yellow, stationary yellow, white slow vehicle, ect. I began to rely on the board and not the flagger. The visibility of the board when lit with a condition was better then the flagger. During the times of a waiving yellow, I could glance at the flagger to see how energetic he was about the waiving yellow.

Overall I think the light panels at the stations are great, but I'm not really wild about needing the in-car module.

[Hardingfv32]

1) Code 35 where you drive around at 35mph: This system has a set of indicators/signals that gets the driver down to 35 and keeps him there. Race control will know if you are not complying.

2) Formula cars represent a small share of this products sales. I do not see them jumping to solve our packaging issues.

3) I am going to buy a unit and reverse engineer the packaging (not electronics). The unit is sealed. Hopefully it is just the back cover that is sealed around the perimeter. At a minimum something has to be done to minimize the cabling.

Brian

[924RACR]

Brian, before you burn too much effort they did mention (earlier in this thread IIRC) that they are working on a smaller unit...

[Ed Womer]

Kinda a info here. At my first race this year, which was an FRP event at Pitt along with the FV bday party, on the track our group FST and east coast FF, had a black flag. I noticed it at the start finish line and slowed for the lap and when I came down pit lane I was told I blew the black flag. After thinking about it I think what might have happened was as the weekend progressed I started to notice the corner stations would just hang the flag at the station. Well with the stations being brown the black flag could blend in if not moving or placed away from the station. So sometimes a contrast is required or even better a movement really helps.

I have been to a few tracks that used the brilliant led light boards and I do like them. They are like a giant Afterburner rain light and quite easy to see. After 40+ years of racing I have rarely have missed a flag and it is usually while passing another car and physically not being able to see the first flag. Not trying to make an excuse, but this can happen even to those who actually pay attention to what they are doing.

Ed

[brian styczynski]

There was a car Sunday afternoon that missed the Checkered Flag 3 or 4 laps in a row, they just kept running laps alone on a wet track. I would like to think an in car unit would help.

[billtebbutt]

There was a car Sunday afternoon that missed the Checkered Flag 3 or 4 laps in a row, they just kept running laps alone on a wet track. I would like to think an in car unit would help.

I like your optimism, but the reality is that you can't fix stupid. And the fellow you refer to should have his license suspended and/or be sent back to race school.....

bt