Flagtronic in car warning light system
I noticed a post at the FRP site about the use of the Flagtronic track condition warning system being available at some of their events. Very interesting system capabilities at what seamed a reasonable cost. I believe I saw that using the GPS option it can report when a car is not following the normal track trajectory. Can also do lap timing.
Is this in SCCA future?
Brian
Yes
They were talking about it the National Convention. It sounds like there are several systems available and they want to make sure they go with something that will work at all tracks, and would only cost the driver a couple hundred to put in a car. Not the top of the line IMSA spec system, but gives you flags in car. Basically, they acknowledged that they think it is inevitable but are still researching.
This is probably a good place for SCCA to be right now. Between flagger demographics and driver inattention, the club needs to do 'something'.Originally Posted by brian styczynski
That something has to work at tracks all over the country, likely not require permanent installations, and be financially viable for drivers and whoever buys/maintains the signaling equipment (regions and/or SCCA National).
I can see an argument for waiting a bit, until the market matures, prices come down with volume, and hopefully some standard emerges. In a perfect world, SCCA would piggyback on a large volume item adopted by other, larger groups (much like it did with AMB transponders, for which SCCA racers are a tiny fraction of AMB's market).
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
https://youtu.be/mtS5d6YILdg
Discussion starts 28 minutes in,
Another question at 39 minutes in
Also at 47 and 55 minutes
Last edited by brian styczynski; 02.07.23 at 5:40 PM.
I think there is a great variance in the quality and reliability of the various flagging systems. There is flagger and flagtronics in the US that seem the biggest. My experience with them as a crew member and at the track is not very positive.
There is a system by EM Motorsports in the UK that looks interesting, though probably expensive. It also looks to be the most proven.
We use flagtronics in champcar endurance series. Flag stations prevail over the display status when in conflict. Series has lots of issues with their flaggers so things routinely out of sync. Useful for night racing for sure. Race control monitors speed when "pink 35" flags are out. They use that flag to try and control the field to 35mph during emergency and recovery like virtual safety car. Unit will flash if you're speeding. Seems to have 10mph margin allowance before it triggers that at 45mph. For amateur series I think it's fine.
Is the system using GPS to determine your car speed under controlled conditions?
If you are speeding under/with a yellow light displayed, is race control made aware of the situation. This would seem the answer to our biggest problem with yellow flags. I the driver does not respond, then a black flag light could be displayed in the car.
Brian
Is there a specified speed for yellows? I thought it was just a "safe" speed. Maybe I need to reread the GCR rules.
Cory
Some tracks (e.g. VIR) specify a certain speed under FCY. Enforcement is very difficult using the current technology.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
The Flagtronics system is being used at Trans Am events and mandatory for all cars. From what I understand, the panels are portable and installed at each event. I looked at the system at the PRI show and it looks adequate for what we need. It will integrate with current design AIM and Motec data systems through a CAN BUS connection.
I suspect electronic flagging will become the norm in the not to distance future at most tracks. It was discussed in detail at the track and series owner's seminar at the PRI show last fall.
FRP is recommending its use, but not mandatory this year. The kit is $249, not a deal breaker.
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Bob, where do you propose mounting the in-car unit in a Van Diemen?
Funny you should ask...Let me know if you figure it out, I haven't yet. I have a couple of ideas, but nothing concrete yet.
The GPS antenna needs to 'see the sky'. I have a CDL3 Motec dash that is too old to connect and I'm a bit stumped so far. The unit is very light and could probably be mounted with velcro. The wires out the back are problematic because they come out straight, but the company told me they can be altered to do a 90 deg turn if asked.
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
CAN interface to your current display is possible with the flagtronics - see video half way down the screen.
The 'flagger' one has direct messaging which is interesting.
One mentions NO subscription while the other doesn't mention it.
https://flagtronics.com/
https://nevermissaflag.com/flagger-system
My question is does the antenna on the box (not the GPS antenna) need a lot of exposure?
Maybe the unit could be mounted so the display is in your peripheral vision.
I think the first one to integrate with AIM is going to win out. Then you can mount the unit anywhere.
It is suppose to work with the AIM SW4 and similar applications, but not the older ones. My understanding is the unit antenna needs exposure to the sky, as well as the GPS antenna.
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Flagtronic shows the unit and gps mounted on a sedan dash. So it can not be that sensitive to mounting location. I need a unit mounted on the dash. I will disassemble and re-package with a remote antenna. Just the way I roll.
Brian
Yes race control can see your car's speed via the unit's GPS. Black flag can be sent to the individual unit. Note ChampCar is only focused on speeding during "pink 35" which is a different flag than yellow. The series uses it like virtual safety car because nobody in that series seems to understand how to behave during FCY.
Champcar issued the units "free" during a trial period at races. We simply tossed it in our 1991 Corvette with a good adhesive to the top of the dash inside the car. The display box is pretty small, should fit in most any formula car. Integration to a data display would be great.
It is being used for flagging only, not timing and scoring in any way. Honestly I see no reason not to implement this or an equivalent type system. The portable track-side display boards are great too, so if a facility is not already setup with electronic boards then they can use flagtronics portable units. It greatly enhances situational awareness for amateurs who are so overwhelmed by wheel to wheel racing that they can't remember to glance at flag stations to save their life..
Not exactly. The systems are not taken out after every event. I'm not sure the CAN is fully functional yet. I'm happy to share more experience 1:1 if you would like.
Any of these devices would need a data system that can accept an external custom CAN. That rules out AiM MXL Pista, Evo4, MyChron, and older. It would work with a SW4, EVO4s, EVO5, MXL2, MXS, MXG, MXP, MXm, or a PDM. That part is also dependent on what connections the person is already using and how it's all configured. So an AiM EVO4s with an ECU connection would not be able to connect to a flagging system.
Just another "money grab" that will hurt the less affluent racers. We already make them buy HNR devices, radios, cameras, and other numerous "safety items".
It is hard to believe we once raced with a system of flags that let officials communicate directly with the racers on matters of competition and safety.
As we continually rediscover, it is the same basic small group of racers who lack common sense and situational awareness, and who will continue to make dangerous and unsporting actions, regardless of the safety protocols that we introduce to "help" them behave.
Last edited by problemchild; 02.09.23 at 11:26 AM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
You are right - it's usually the same people.
But -
I see regions finding it more difficult to get workers for weekends. Pressing a Yellow button and being able to turn their attention to something else might reduce the number of workers needed.
Some of us non-team guys do have to invest in tech to help us. In reading about these devices I immediately thought about a situation a couple weekends ago. Qualifying. Trying to get a good lap in when 1/4 of the track is under yellow. A system like this could tell me when it's gone full green and I could push when I can't see what was the yellow section of track.
How would this flagging system work with a car that has analog gauges? Any additional expenses involved? Ballpark guesses of how much?
Trying to add another electronic data system that has all sorts of hard requirements to a formula car is dead at the start. If this can't interface with the current AiM hardware, probably thru an expansion port, and use the AiM displays, then it won't see any use in cars like mine. There is no room in the cockpit for another block that has to see the sky and the driver can see. If it can interface with my AiM system (Evo4 and G-Dash), then that would be easy. The AiM system already has a GPS and the G-Dash has lights and a configurable text display, so this flagging system would be viable if it could work with what's already there. But adding something else - not going to happen.
I hope this doesn't sound too snobby/dickish, but the Evo4/G-Dash, while being a great system, is not really current Aim hardware (IMO).
But I totally get and agree with the dread of adding more stuff to a formula car. I always coveted the extra space Sports Racers have, with their giant side pods (tongue in cheek). :-)
Personally, I really like the Flagtronics direction, and am glad to see FRP heading that direction... even if it is only on the Parella weekends so far.
I was pushing for this 4 years ago within Challenge Cup (since we are more entry-level & see more new drivers than the upper classes), but the tech & implementation was not there just yet. But I also think the current box design they have is not formula-car friendly.
I know everyone wants AIM integration, but there are still a lot of cars that do not have new AIM dashes (both within FRP & SVRA), so a small standalone system is probably best, with a small remote LED cluster that is easier for us to mount in limited spaces. Obviously it would require some extra work on their end, but small shift light clusters already are out there, so it is doable.
There used to be another system called Audible Flagging that appears to be defunct now, but that was also kinda nice to add some audio warning.
~Matt Clark| RTJ-02 FV #92 | My YouTube Onboard Videos (helmet cam)
The Evo4 is a great system, but it is a previous generation. It will not accept a custom CAN protocol and new protocols can not be added to RS2. I guess there is a chance that Flagtronics could make a custom output that mimics a different protocol, but it would be clunky at best. And if there is an ECU connected. the Evo4 and Evo4s only have one CANbus connection.
I am not part of Flagrtronics or AiM (though a popular dealer), so I'm just reporting my experience using one. I do not believe Flagtronics will interface with a different GPS and I have not seen it's CAN output in use in over a year. I have not argument that formula cars are tight and adding more gear is less than great.
I agree. They need to come up with a few packages.
Hate to quote myself ^^^ but.....
I currently have an MXL Pista stuffed into an RF01 and have been considering upgrading. BUT the only current option for the car is the EVO4s/EVO5/G-Dash. There are NO COLOR options unless looking at a PDM 6" screen (which would be really tight) because the connections on all these units are straight out the back and interfere with the front hoop.
I'm hoping the screen in the SW4 gets packaged as a GS-DASH-Color or an MXS sized with a slimmed down bezel..... If that happened I'd order one now.
AIM could drive upgrades with this sort of tech adoption.
As much as I do like the idea of these systems, this definitely needs to be standalone capable. There's still a LOT of non-formula cars out there without data systems... and unless we're now going to get a big fat discount on all-new AIM systems, I'm not switching over from my current competitor system!!
The Flagtronics is supposed to have a CAN output, so it an work with any system. The output did not work as of November, but it might now.
Well, any system using CAN...
Adding small standalone lights to the cockpit like that would be very do-able. Even with the roomier Spectrum cockpit I don't have anywhere to put the full-size display unit where the driver has a chance of seeing it. Having something in your peripheral vision only registers if you have attention to spare for those sorts of things: which isn't likely when you're in the situations you have cockpit flag lights for in the first place.
Interesting items about in car systems.
If research is done you will find out that at a track like Road America, a very tall mast is needed on the control building and there are still problems in Thunder Valley. Other tracks also have reception problems. Even cars that had a specified antenna location had this problem. The other item is if a dash is flashing red for an engine problem and the driver ignores it, do you think a driver will see/notice anything else? The problem can be solved by wiring in the rain/tail light to flash when it's activated. Then it must still be wired into the car. So eliminating easy rental/throw in systems.
What about series or sanction body crossover if different systems are used?
A more cost effective approach would be a corner light board system.
The Flagtronics uses a mesh they put in at the track, presumably from the systems that are in the flag stations. It does work at Road Atlanta.
My crew experience with drivers with this system is that they generally agree the lights are "too active" and have too many different color/text/blinking combinations to the point of information overload, and ultimately not paying the attention to it that they might otherwise.
Ian Macpherson
Savannah, GA
Race prep, support, and engineering.
Just wondering how much the tracks will have to invest and how many of them will?? I do not know anything about the system other than what I have read here.
As a small update & relevant bump to this thread, I see there was a post in an AIM Facebook group that someone had the Flagtronics/AIM integration for CAN that Trans-Am uses. Basically sounds exactly like what AIM users in this thread were hoping for.
I know there are a couple of you guys in there that probably already saw it, but for those that did not...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1408...66234927374430
~Matt Clark
$249 to purchase but what sort of “MyFlags” subscription down the road?
I see the AMB transponder model starting here.
I agree; that practice is really irritating. Sadly, that is today's business model. Everything, from software to automobile features, is becoming subscription-based. I just bought a new laptop and discovered that Microsoft will not sell me a copy of Office any longer - subscription only. Works a treat for the vendor, but the customer's credit card is on constant drip.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
And so continues the death spiral of ever increasing costs leading to lower participation leading to ever increasing costs.
My newest computer… Linux. Op-out of the Microsoft money machine.
Taking up on Ian's post regarding too many flashing lights, I wonder how much time is being spent on the actual human factors of this? I'm guessing in actuality, zero, when it should be a major concern.
I recently took on a bit of research on this. At VARA's driver's school, we allow passing in five different zones, and open those zones up as the drivers become more proficient. We usually have a stand-up meeting before a track session where the group instructors tell the group which zones are open. At the end of the grid, and right before the entrance to the pit lane, is a large sign board with 2' x 2' panels with the zones (lettered A-E) in black on white if open, and covered by a red circle and slash if closed. It's main goal was to keep the group instructors from running up and down the grid yelling the zones into the cars.
It works better, but its still surprising how many people don't take on what the display is telling them, and get a black for passing in a closed zone.
So I reached out to a DOT lab, hoping someone there could point me to some applicable research. Nope. Highway signage does things differently. It does not expect you to pick up multiple pieces of unique information and apply it further up the road. (with some notable exceptions, and in those cases, like digital emergency signboards, it's in your face, obvious, very big, and very simple).
I wonder what the FIA has learned. I'm guessing the digital flags work very well at street events where they can stick out of a fence right next to the racing surface without creating additional hazards. Same is true of oval track green/yellow lights. And of course, that's always backed up on the pro side, with radios that work. And as far as F1/2/3, cost is no obstacle for the FIA.
It would be interesting to see (likely in a simulator) how well these systems work on their own - absent radio communications, and the time differences in recognition compared to traditional flagging. Of course there are other considerations - the effect of other cars either sucking up attention or providing cues (because they say the yellow and you didn't for example). I have serious doubts if any of the people selling these systems have done that - they are likely selling them on different merits.
I spent many years of my life trying to present data to a guy going 600 mph while people were actively trying to kill him (or as one of my pilot friends used to say, when your IQ shrinks to your shoe size), and those guys didn't have to worry about hitting something (A-10 and helo dudes notwithstanding).
In other words, this is neither simple or well understood, especially since its a major departure from what is currently done with flags.
This seems like a pretty simple application. I guess there could be recommendations on where and how to place the warning lights track side and in the cockpit. I would say this is something the sanction body should be doing. How does this differ form flag station placement?
What is different about a flag or light board displayed in the exact location? Maybe you use both for a few years if that is what the quality of your competitors require.
Lights in the cockpit: A properly functioning race car should only have the shift light displayed. Anytime something else lights up you switch to a less intense driving style and allocate attention/bandwidth to the anomaly. A flashing track condition light on the dash should garner your attention just like any other warning light.
These light systems will not to solve the problem of drivers on track with less than ideal bandwidth for high performance driving or competition.
Brian
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote