99 Van Diemen with dead Pinto engine - What should I do?

[4mulaGuy]

So this car has been sitting for a while. It is a stock 99 chassis with a Pinto motor. Motor is out and car has sat.

Would like to go racing again - even if it's vintage.

Looks like a fresh Pinto is about $8K, similar for Zetec. Both seem to be pretty old school - is MZR the best way to go? How much are those? I know there is more to add than just the engine, how much extra should I budget?

Throw me some ball park numbers and suggestions if you were in my shoes.

Thanks much.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

You need to decide what your plans are. If you plan to race for years or a couple and then sell.

I'd think you could rebuild the Pinto most easily. Competitiveness is the big debate.
If you want to re-build a pinto talk to Doug Learned (TDC in Sand City) about building reliable motors.

If you want to convert to a Zetec and do work yourself, look at this thead:
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...-Zetec-Project
and David Simerleys website: https://junkyardzetec.com/
He's in your hood and used a lot of local support.

Kim Wilcox (PM apex id Tahoe z) converted his 99 about 2-3 years ago. Can probably tell you a lot about it.

Another is Dave Freitas (www.davefreitasracing.com) in SoCal. He seems to convert one every year. He might be able to give you a parts/source list.

I think the Zetec will certainly cost more to convert. Wiring harness, fuel pump, exhaust, engine cover, engine mounts and more. But, very few Pintos at the track in Cali.

I moved from a 94/95VD Pinto to an 01 Zetec 2 years ago. The the car is better. You already have that.

The MZR is still not 'allowed in FC'.

Good luck!

[problemchild]

Would like to go racing again - even if it's vintage.

Please take the next statement in the positive spirit intended. "If you are asking your question, you are not capable of doing the Zetec or MZR conversion." Those are big jobs. In my professional opinion, they should only be attempted by a very enthused, experienced and active F2000 car technician, probably employed by a prep shop. As a reference to my opinion, I operate a prep shop with the 2016 F2000 championship and FC Runoffs bronze/gold/silver in the last 3 years on our resume. I would hesitate to take on the project which would be dependent on a wide open calendar and a wide open checkbook.

The only viable option is to fix the Pinto engine (or buy another) then go racing, or sell the car and buy another car (perhaps a Zetec or MZR if ever made legal). If running vintage, or not at the front, I personally see no need to upgrade cams, rods, etc if you decide to keep it. It may be more marketable with the upgrades if selling. Then again, if I was selling, I would sell the car as-is and start over.

Remember that the value of your car as-is, is less than the cost of a fresh Zetec and all the bits required, BEFORE LABOR. The MZR cannot be much cheaper, and is still not FC legal.

Fix the engine and come racing!

[Rick Kirchner]

Well what's wrong with the Pinto?

Last time I got a pro re-build it was $3500 from Butler, and that included the new Ivey pistons (before the long rod was approved). I did not have to pay shipping, these days that will likely add another grand. But the cam would be your best investment.

If you have a good block, crank, and head, I could see that $3500 going up to $5-6K due to more parts, maybe some labor in lightening the flywheel some more.

Heck you can buy Hapgood's LR engine for $7K.

[Purple Frog]

My first question would be, "Why is the engine out in the first place?"
A. tired
B. needed clutch
C. blown up, hole in block. "runt"
D. owner thought he would upgrade...

OBTW, Butler is a long way from California. And, for the sake of discussion, everything is more expensive in California.

My second question would be, "What is the mechanical skill level of the owner?"
1, Not skilled
2. Somewhat skilled (can change oil and plugs)
3. Fairly skilled (can fix clutch)
4. Highly skilled (does complete frame up rebuilds, build his/her engines)

If the above answers are "A-4" "B-4" "D-4" you could refresh the engine yourself with help of local machine shop.
If answer starts with a "C" you probably should sell it to a person classified as a "4".

An owner that classifies as a "3" can accomplish a lot with some savings with the help of this site.

Obviously there are a few more permutations....

My third question involves owner's finances and willingness to pay $$$. Could range from $5K to $20K...based on answers to first two questions.

[jrh3]

So this car has been sitting for a while. It is a stock 99 chassis with a Pinto motor. Motor is out and car has sat.

Would like to go racing again - even if it's vintage.

Looks like a fresh Pinto is about $8K, similar for Zetec. Both seem to be pretty old school - is MZR the best way to go? How much are those? I know there is more to add than just the engine, how much extra should I budget?

Throw me some ball park numbers and suggestions if you were in my shoes.

Thanks much.

A very nice, very reasonable pinto for sale Facebook F2000 market place.

[Rick Kirchner]

OBTW, Butler is a long way from California. And, for the sake of discussion, everything is more expensive in California.

Well he's in NorCal, so he has and Pick, Ivey and Loyning at a reasonable distance.

But from there the next closest is Elite, and Quicksilver and Butler are essentially the same distance. The next stop is Africa....

For the most part though, you could have Butler build it, pay the shipping, and still be way ahead on cost ...

[EYERACE]

Vintage may have some engine rules (or other) that are different than SCCA (or some other body)
-- I have no idea but here could be a few issues:
aluminum head vs. iron only head
long rod Pinto vs not
carb mandated vs. choice allowed
which cam you may use
Zetec allowed (you can bet the Mazda engine would not be allowed in Vintage)
overall car + driver weight
tire allowed
fuel port

Many of these issues can be addressed by your engine builder - some you will discover when reading the body's rules - a good idea would be to talk with the various body's Tech Inspectors before starting on your build. I'm certain the Tech Inspectors will be more than happy to answer and advise.

To quote Carrol Smith: an engine is a part that you take out of a box and bolt in place just like a coil.
Translation: The Pro engine builder will find you five horsepower that you will never find after tearing down and then building a dozen engines.

[Rick Kirchner]

I don't recall any FC engine rules in vintage that are more restrictive than the SCCA's. It would be nice for some like minded people to get together and nail a few things down, but SVRA puts us in Group 9, F2, because someone there can't tell the difference between a limited prep SOHC engine and a 2L Cossie. So we're only handicapped by what - 130 HP and twice the tire?

East coast vintage doesn't matter because they're still stuck in 1972. Could never find a vintage group that would let me run when I was on the east coast in 2015-18, so I ran SCCA regionals and the occasional SVRA race and it was fun.

Nobody wants to go back to stock ford rods and lifed mahle pistons, J&E's are unobtanium, who knows how long the Ivey pistons will be around now that we have the long rod kit.

Everybody seems to just want as much crossover as possible.

[4mulaGuy]

My first question would be, "Why is the engine out in the first place?"
A. tired
B. needed clutch
C. blown up, hole in block. "runt"
D. owner thought he would upgrade...

OBTW, Butler is a long way from California. And, for the sake of discussion, everything is more expensive in California.

My second question would be, "What is the mechanical skill level of the owner?"
1, Not skilled
2. Somewhat skilled (can change oil and plugs)
3. Fairly skilled (can fix clutch)
4. Highly skilled (does complete frame up rebuilds, build his/her engines)

If the above answers are "A-4" "B-4" "D-4" you could refresh the engine yourself with help of local machine shop.
If answer starts with a "C" you probably should sell it to a person classified as a "4".

An owner that classifies as a "3" can accomplish a lot with some savings with the help of this site.

Obviously there are a few more permutations....

My third question involves owner's finances and willingness to pay $$$. Could range from $5K to $20K...based on answers to first two questions.

Engine: I was running low on time getting the car back together for a race and thought the reason I had no oil pressure was due to bad sender - it looked like oil was being pumped back into the tank. So I went. After two laps - rod knock. I made a really stupid decision. Bearings, oil pump, shot. So rebuild would most likely involve a lot. Crank, pistons, rods might be OK - can't remember. The head probably should be rebuilt as well. Not where where that falls in the A-C world.

Skils: I have pulled the engine out a couple of times. Replaced a blown head gasket at the track with help. Replaced the bell housing. Valve adjustments. Had it nearly all apart to replace the fuel cell. Replaced wishbones. Have scales and can align and do corner weights. So I would say somewhere between 3-4.

Money is the big question mark. The reason it sat was I got hit by a car that spun off then shot back into me during the formation lap - wishbones, wing, sidepod, wheels, bell housing cracked - so that was a lot of money and the next time on the track I screwed the engine. So not knowing if I should convert to Zetec or rebuild and then the lack of money (shortly after 2008) I made no decision.

So...

[Nardi]

Keep it simple. Buy or build a long rod pinto. Go have some fun.

[Rick Silver]

I went through this decision process last year after a more than 10 year break from racing. I have a 98 Van Diemen with complete 2001 suspension and bodywork upgrades. I do want to be competitive at the National level and chose to go with the new long rod pinto engine. Whether it is competitive at the front remains to be seen as I am just coming back from a very long break. I did qualify 8th fastest for the 2022 runoffs and had never been to VIR before, so maybe there is hope.

I did do the complete set of pinto upgrades: lightweight flywheel, new carb, new cam, new long rods and lightweight pistons, updated oil pump etc. The engine feels so much better - more than 10 hp increase and it spins so easily.

Although VIR was my first race with the new motor configuration, there was no obvious power or speed disadvantage that I could attribute to the engine. I think Glen has been racing a new long rod pinto engine in nationals and the pro series last year and doing quite well.

In my opinion it is way cheaper to do the pinto upgrades than do a complete zetec upgrade. I have also heard from Quicksilver that the new long rod engines may have much better bottom end wear characteristics than the old pinto engines.

[Skip Weld]

I should mention that Rollin Butler would like some time to go race his own car but he has so many good customers who really respect his work, as do I, that he can't go have fun in spite of being well into retirement age. He doesn't want to close, just slow down a little. What I am saying is he doesn't need any new customers, just a few long time customers.
I hope he won't get mad at me for putting this out there.
Skip Weld

[tlracer]

Nobody wants to go back to stock ford rods and lifed mahle pistons, J&E's are unobtanium, who knows how long the Ivey pistons will be around now that we have the long rod kit.

Over here in Limey-land, aka the UK, we are still obliged to use stock Ford parts...seems crazy when there are better options!

[DaveW]

...In my opinion it is way cheaper to do the pinto upgrades than do a complete Zetec upgrade. I have also heard from Quicksilver that the new long rod engines may have much better bottom end wear characteristics than the old pinto engines.

Longer time between rebuilds was, IIRC, the main driving point for allowing the long rod setup. Nice to hear that it has done that.

[Monte]

I know of a very good engine builder in CT that built a Pinto that ran in the F2000 Pro series on the East coast. You can PM me if you want his info. I will ask him if he has the time.

Chris Monteleone

[marshall9]

I know of a very good engine builder in CT that built a Pinto that ran in the F2000 Pro series on the East coast. You can PM me if you want his info. I will ask him if he has the time.

Chris Monteleone

As the end user of that engine, it was strong and ran up front every weekend. I believe it to still be running, but I no longer own the car.

[jrh3]

or just come get my Reynard with a fresh long rod pinto and go vintage racing. Marshall knows the car.

[Phil Creighton]

Honestly the freight is not the major factor - once you put it on a truck instead of delivering it you are looking at a minimum of $150-200 each way . It really does not add a huge amount to send it east - I just got an FA motor from Ivey that cost $350 freight to Atlanta in 3 days. Make your decision on who you trust to do the right job for you and your program level.

Sounds like a long rod kit would be the way to go - Pinto heads survive most things!!!
Phi

[Rick Kirchner]

It really does not add a huge amount to send it east - I just got an FA motor from Ivey that cost $350 freight to Atlanta in 3 days.
Phi

Who did you use?

[stonebridge20]

Who did you use?

Ivey uses UPS Air freight.

[Phil Creighton]

It came UPS freight but I noticed it came part way by air according to the stickers on the crate. 3 days.. Crate on pallet 350#
I know its more difficult for an individual to compare quotes but talk to your engine builder of choice - they all seem to have a deal with a freight comany.
Phil

[Rick Kirchner]

That seems to be a change. Last time I sent an engine to Portland (about 2006-ish) I had to arrange my own with the usual hassles - wouldn't pick up from a residential address due to concerns about access, so I had to haul it to a friend's business, which had even more restrictive access.

[problemchild]

Paying $500 toward to/return shipping costs is a bargain if it means you use the best people for your needs.

And if your time is of value to you, driving a day each way, plus your expenses, to self-transport, is probably not worthwhile.

To the old adage that your builder will do a better job for you if you are there for the dyno session ...... not a chance. Spare everyone the "dog and pony" show and get the engine back when the builder is 100% ready to return it.

[GregSmith]

Or, just send to Picks In Santa Ana, 714-662-5797. He’s always done right by me. Prices are reasonable and a good guy to work with.

[stonebridge20]

Or, just send to Picks In Santa Ana, 714-662-5797. He’s always done right by me. Prices are reasonable and a good guy to work with.

Picks?

Why does that sound familiar?

[Roland V. Johnson]

Gosh, I would not know!