Why aren't there more Formula cars out there?

[Want2race]

I had this thought this morning- Why aren't more formula cars out there?

I probably check this page, ebay, racing junk and a few others 3 times a day looking for a car. I have an idea of what I want (Something 1996+) but I am flexible to consider other options. Given the other types of cars the rate at which people sell their cars is significantly lower with formula cars

Is the problem that so few were built and purchased? Or folks just hold them forever?

[BrianT1]

You list 1996+ but you don't list what type of car, FF, FC, Pro Mazda, Atlantic? Cars are out there you just need to ask and then sellers will pop up. What budget do you have for a car?

Brian

[rockbeau25]

I think a lot of cars sell through word of mouth without ever hitting the open market. I have a friend buying a car this weekend that way.

[DanW]

I think many are intimidated by the hazard of exposed wheels and open cockpit. It's quite a foreign feeling to most drivers of production cars. Even more are not even aware open wheels cars exist in amateur racing.

[Want2race]

You list 1996+ but you don't list what type of car, FF, FC, Pro Mazda, Atlantic? Cars are out there you just need to ask and then sellers will pop up. What budget do you have for a car?

Brian

My goal has been under $24k. Obviously depends on what else I need to get going (IE trailers etc) As for what cars- I used to say only FC but would consider the right FF , PFM as well. FA would be cool but I would get myself in more trouble than enjoyment I think..

Thanks
~JF

[beavertail]

I think many are intimidated by the hazard of exposed wheels and open cockpit. It's quite a foreign feeling to most drivers of production cars. Even more are not even aware open wheels cars exist in amateur racing.

I second the reasoning that a lot of people are simply not aware of open-wheeled race cars in amateur racing. Myself, I would have likely gotten into it much sooner, had I known that it was available.

[alangbaker]

I had this thought this morning- Why aren't more formula cars out there?

I probably check this page, ebay, racing junk and a few others 3 times a day looking for a car. I have an idea of what I want (Something 1996+) but I am flexible to consider other options. Given the other types of cars the rate at which people sell their cars is significantly lower with formula cars

Is the problem that so few were built and purchased? Or folks just hold them forever?

I don't think it's so much that there aren't a lot of cars out there.

But there is a rhythm to when they come on the market, and we're reaching the time of year when people are working on their cars, rather than selling them.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

So many are bought as projects and the steam runs out.
I know an FC owner that bought a running car and immediately took it a part. Life got in the way and 6 years later he sold it complete in boxes for less than 1/2 what he paid. I bought a roller that way and 4 years later sold it as a roller.

I bought a 94/95 FC and ran it for 3 years before taking it apart Nov/Dec. But I limited myself on scope to make sure the car was back in service.

If you constantly 'rework' portions of the car, you can keep up and have a day job.
Time is a big factor. That's why the yoots aren't running them.

And I've also said it in other threads - space. Fewer people have garages / work space. A requirement for these cars.

[Lastminuteracin]

So many are bought as projects and the steam runs out.
I know an FC owner that bought a running car and immediately took it a part. Life got in the way and 6 years later he sold it complete in boxes for less than 1/2 what he paid. I bought a roller that way and 4 years later sold it as a roller.

I bought a 94/95 FC and ran it for 3 years before taking it apart Nov/Dec. But I limited myself on scope to make sure the car was back in service.

If you constantly 'rework' portions of the car, you can keep up and have a day job.
Time is a big factor. That's why the yoots aren't running them.

And I've also said it in other threads - space. Fewer people have garages / work space. A requirement for these cars.

I'm on the receiving end of a disassembled Super Vee. Been in pieces for over 15 years. I'll second your comment on running out of steam. While I have made great progress there are times where I just look at it and shake my head wondering if I'll ever finish it. Right now I'm in the motivated category.

[Steve Stone]

I hate this question.... Whenever asked what the budget is, every cars price seems to go right to the budget or above. If you have a car to sell then list it with your asking price. Then the buyer can buy, pass or start negotiating. You also need to realize that the work you put into it is lost. The buyer isnt really concerned with the hours you spent building it and what your sentimental attachment to it is. It's a simple business transaction, its worth what the cost is to build it again to that level with those parts. The quality of the builds listed on this site is amazing, but lets not forget...... we're talking club racing in a depressed economy. JMO

[Dee]

Stay motivated super vees are great littles cars, I've had Penske's RT 5 in my stable for 15 years and still enjoy driving
it.>
Dee

[EYERACE]

No place to run? NASA down South here doesn't have an open wheel grid. When I've talked to 'em about that the answer was > you get a dozen cars together and get back to us - then we'll make a grid for y'all. .....and I'm no good at cat herding.

Initial cost? Most newer open wheel cars are fairly more expensive to get into than some Spec Miata for the average Club Racer.

Other? Agree very strongly with DanW .....open wheel scares too many potential drivers who feel safer in a tin top

Other? It's probably a good idea that a lot of shiny-new-driver's-suit newbies do not start in many of the open wheel cars available.

[wake74]

I’d argue that most people (at the amateur racing level) start with HPDEs as the gateway drug. I did a lot of HPDEs in the Southeast prior to getting back into a CFF. Packed grids, low barriers to entry, you can pretty much run every weekend with-in an easy drive if you wanted to. PCA, BMWCCA, NASA, THSCC, etc. the options are endless. There isn’t exactly a means to dip your toe into open wheel racing, it’s a jump in with both feet and hope there is water in the pool.

After attending lots of NASA weekends, I can say I would (personally) never drive an open wheel car in that culture. It’s a red mist, win at all costs, the grass is a perfectly acceptable racing surface culture. Not a matter if there is contact in a race, it’s a matter of just how much, and how many cars are going to have significant damage. They cater to a crowd that is looking for that, so kudos to them. They found a need, and filled a need.

On a side note, anyone see the video of their practice start from their last race school? It was mayhem. Cars on the grass running to the outside of the braking markers. I just laughed thinking this is truly a perfect school start for a NASA race.

[Purple Frog]

Dan W hit the nail on the head in post #4.

They are scared, pure and simple. I've talked to a lot of potential folks, and their wives, or parents, they want roll cages and structure.

Performance wise a $40k formula car will out lap almost any other option under $200K.

Halos may be the only answer. YMMV

[douglap1]

I second the reasoning that a lot of people are simply not aware of open-wheeled race cars in amateur racing. Myself, I would have likely gotten into it much sooner, had I know that it was available.

This is quite true.

About a year ago, our local SCCA region had a display at a large cars and coffee event, and I brought my FC car out as one of the two race cars on display (the other being an IT class car). We ended up with a huge line of people wanting to sit in my formula car, and they had me occupied with questions for many hours.

From this experience, I learned that many car enthusiasts from outside of racing are not aware of any formula or sports racing classes lower than F1 or Le Mans prototypes, and almost everyone expected that it would take at least $ 100K to by my old Van Diemen RF97.

I'm sure there are those who are frightened off by the danger of an open wheel car, but I think that even more are just unaware of the option.

What we have here is a failure to communicate...

[Pi_guy]

I laugh at the hockey goaltenders equipment now. I have shown some of the current goaltenders the equipment I wore. The response I get is I couldn't play in that equipment. I played in the era of curved sticks so speed and weight of puck has not changed much.


My 2 cents are the kids are not as tough as they used to be.


Don't think there is just one reason for the decline in formula cars.

The number of small bore formula cars manufacturers are very small think you can count on one hand the number.

When FF was released it was not uncommon for home built one off cars to appear. Now you need budget of small country.

Lack of pro series to drive up the demand for production of formula cars

Lime Rock in the day had a racing event every weekend, they have found that non racing events pay more with less overhead cost.

The biggest problem we had in the day was enough workers to staff the event when there were events at Bryar, Lime Rock and Bridgehampton on the same weekend car count was not the problem.

Diversity now that we have lawnmower racing and the rest of them takes away from the core group of road racers. There are only so many racer types.

The amount of technology used in racing just drives the non tech savoy people away.

When I started in my town on Long Island there were at least 5 or 6 racers in the town now I am hard pressed to find some one that knows what the SCCA is let alone a formula car. The one race shop in town just runs NASA

Back in the day we had many competing car clubs, SCCA, EMRA and RCCA we no longer even have a NY Region in SCCA

We have a whole group of people that prefer to go car less have no interest, they didn't exist in my time......

Going back to coach my HS hockey team


m

[Pi_guy]

As a side note I have been coaching hockey for the last five or six years, been showing pictures of formula cars for the time and asking if any one wants to see them in person?

In this time I have had one person show interest, but that was after he went to BU and got involved with SAE team. He want to the track this year.

[Rick Kirchner]

I'm not sure if lack of a pro series is as big a deal as we all think - but, in the mid 1990s Lola, Reynard, and Swift went off to Indycarland. That left Van Diemen, Citation, and a smattering of others. The designs stabilized, optimized, and there was not enough performance leap in the next version of a car to justify the expense of buying it and developing it.

So people stayed with what they had and just tweaked it. The cost of entry for a new manufacturer was high and the old designs with tweeks were just more cost effective.

Look at Radon and RFR - they didn't really dominate like a new chassis did in the mid 80's, or else there would have been a ton of 00-05 VDs on the market 10 years ago.

[swiftdrivr]

To the question of why there are not more cars for sale, which I think was the original question, it may be simply that this is an addicting sport. I have made few races in the last several years, had crash damage, am losing my shop and in the middle of a move to the equivalent of a fancy tiny-house [relatively speaking], but I haven't sold my car, because I hope to race it more in the future. Racing isn't something anyone wants to admit is over. I'll end up selling when the RV dies, maybe, because there is no budget for a new RV, but then, VIR has garages, so an open trailer and an SUV?
{I hope to be buried in my car!}

[Offcamber1]

{I hope to be buried in my car!}

That's where all the cars went?

FWIW, I am already buried (financially) in mine!

[halcyon]

I don't think it is limited to Formula Cars.

If you want a 96+ formula car, you could buy one on any given day.

The more you limit your choices, then the longer it takes.

My Crossle 45F, I found within a month.

My Lotus Type 69 took 5 years to source.

My Lotus Super 7 took 5 years to source a completely legal, front running vintage car.

I have been looking for the right SCCA production car (I could have one built by Huffaker or another shop, or build it myself but really don't want to spend $100k for a front runner or have the time to do it myself) for 5 years and am still looking.

[t walgamuth]

I don't know why to the op.

Having just sold my Van Dieman I have to admit I am having remorse.

[DSR3]

With plans to return to racing, last year I looked for a club ford for a number of months and 2 of the 3 cars I found most interesting were from old/ancient ad's I dug up, and the 1 I did buy was "not for sale!", but I guess I wore him down (thanks Neil)...

When owners stop racing and lose interest I suspect many stop engaging and let the car sit, sometimes for long periods (30+ years for my purchase). As far as I know those other 2 cars I looked at are right where I last saw them over a year ago, one in a trailer and 1 in a barn and not for sale.

[mmi16]

I believe there is a wealth of cars of all classes both open and closed wheel hiding in garages all over the country. Car was purchased and for some reason 'put away' maybe it has been raced and broke, maybe the 'idea' flamed out, maybe work and effort were put into the car and then Parenthood entered the picture - there are as many reasons as there are cars stored in garages, in many case hidden under tons of stuff - enough stuff that many don't even realize there is a race car under all the stuff.

It takes more effort and dedication to put a car on track than many of us would like to admit.

My first car was a box van full of parts and a photograph of what those parts looked like assembled at some point in its history. When I got the car assembled and on track, the prior owner looked very surprised.

From a SCCA perspective - it is no longer the only game in town for grass roots automotive competition.

[EYERACE]

The reason cars sit - not for sale - is: ......there's always hope (in the mind of the owner)

[jim morgan]

Ready to go 01 VD FF with spares for sale in FF classifieds at near your budget.

Buy a car ready to go rather than a project

[BLS]

The reason cars sit - not for sale - is: ......there's always hope (in the mind of the owner)

I resemble that remark.

[jrh3]

As a side note I have been coaching hockey for the last five or six years, been showing pictures of formula cars for the time and asking if any one wants to see them in person?

In this time I have had one person show interest, but that was after he went to BU and got involved with SAE team. He want to the track this year.

You would probably be more popular with the young guys if you had a Japanese drift car loaded with computers

[bcvinar]

The culture that exists surrounding racing in North America has historically revolved around sports cars and still mostly holds true. I've always believed that formula car racing has not been popular because it never had the same media attention as sports cars. I'd say most wheels that hit the track in the states are street cars on HPDE days.

Take the UK for example, they have an insanely strong formula car presence because it has always been supported at all levels, from karting, to amateur formula racing, all the way up to F3, F2, and ultimately F1. If you wanted to, you could go from zero to hero in just single seaters alone. That is virtually impossible to do solely within the states. Most drivers ship off to Europe for F3.

I think with the rising popularity of Formula 1 in North America and Formula 4 being introduced some years ago, that the potential is there if we can connect the rest of the dots. There needs to be sponsor interest, commercial viability, a support system for talent, proper entertainment format, etc.

I started attending F1 in 2016 with my first race being in Canada. By 2019 I had been to Canada multiple times and Texas as well. Fast forward to 2022, I had just attended another Canadian GP after covid with the biggest crowd ever seen. So noticeable to the point where you used to be able to walk freely at any time without much headache, to now needing to strategically plan how you move and when you move, when you get there, and how long to expect to get from point A to point B.

I couldn't even get tickets to the race in 2023, and I was on an early sale list from attending the 2022 edition...maybe this is a good sign rather than a bad one. Could take generations to tell.

[Larry H]

I think many are intimidated by the hazard of exposed wheels and open cockpit. It's quite a foreign feeling to most drivers of production cars. Even more are not even aware open wheels cars exist in amateur racing.

Years ago, 40+, the fields were huge. It doesn't seem likely that drivers mindsets have changed over the last 40 years. As I recall, most of us were our mid 20s or early 30s and some were really "old" 40 or 50. Today, it seems like its mostly really really old dudes, like me at 71, just having fun and being challenged.

One does need to be disciplined and precise in a open wheel car.

[Purple Frog]

I hang with a younger motorsports crowd, I think their views of safety have evolved. I know mine have.

40 years ago folks were getting their lower legs messed up in Formula Fords. We updated chassis. We've stepped up to HANS, Better seats, side head restraints, yadda, yadda yadda. I think the whole population is more safety conscious.

Adults today did not grow up laying on the rear shelf under the back window during family trips, or standing up on the center of a front bench seat between their parents,

Watching Crashcar 500 yesterday, much TV coverage on new concussion protocols. People are wiser.

[Apexcarver]

I think one factor is that people are intimidated in the department of sourcing parts. Production cars, you either have production stuff that serves, or you likely have access to many different sources.

My experience (F500) has been that you either need to know "that old guy" who still makes parts for your car on the side (and that old guy might be that one small company), or have a friendly machine shop and be able to design the part you need.

Add to that, depending on the level of production car, you can readily source replacement body parts and might even be able to have a cheap collision repair place put it back together after a wreck. So you also have intimidation of finding someone to work on it.

Add to that those people who view it as "not a real car" or somesuch. They only identify with what they see on the street, but those same guys may like F1, so it never really makes sense to me.

[Keith Robinson]

Dan W hit the nail on the head in post #4.

They are scared, pure and simple. I've talked to a lot of potential folks, and their wives, or parents, they want roll cages and structure.

Performance wise a $40k formula car will out lap almost any other option under $200K.

Halos may be the only answer. YMMV

Interesting first two points with which I agree but I'm not convinced Halo's would help much as I think side impact (being only inches from the 'outside world') is the biggest fear!
I have never understood why sports racers aren't more popular as they are a combination of the ultimate very fast convertible and an O/wheel car!
The biggest grids of open wheel cars now on the west coast are Vintage. This leads me to believe the the whole story of amateur Open Wheel racing (FF,FV,FB,FM etc) is sadly one of demographics particularly our first love FF!
I'll be seeing my career out in a 1975 LeGrand Mk21 FF :-)

[Will Horn]

Adding in a few quick thought/fun questions, I think about this question a lot

Awesome thoughts here so far, I mostly assume accessibility and awareness are greater barriers than fear for expanding our numbers. For me these feel like community issues with community solutions where ApexSpeed should grow in leadership and visibility to help sustain the knowledge and sport...

How could any stranger have an authentic experience that made them know they NEEDED (ala the faster you go, the more you need...) to own a formula car of some sort?

Assuming any roadmap/ladder is unknown to this stranger with a newfound desire for ownership - how do they get going and what do they invest in? i.e. are there clear programs promoting how to align my time/$ budget and skill/risk with my newfound desire to buy a formula car?

Is "new racer" development and onboarding happening in expectant/supportive ways that don't immediately start demotivating the new racer because the risks/complexity/cost outpace the fun?

To all of these questions, what are the barriers to entry for our various series and this community, and how do these get influenced/removed or do they and why?

[Marshall Mauney]

How could any stranger have an authentic experience that made them know they NEEDED (ala the faster you go, the more you need...) to own a formula car of some sort?

Karts.

Seriously.

Go to any of the karting tracks, and the drivers who are fast there would "get it".

[janton9736]

I bought my Star Formula Mazda one year ago. besides SCCA, vintage, and a few FRP events I don't know how I can race it. And track days/test & tune? Without being with a race weekend, I don't see many options in the Midwest for open wheel at all, racing or track days for practice/testing.

I spent a lot of time with NASA and would like to race with them, but they said there is no way they will allow open wheel to mix with sedans in a racing environment.

The only other options I see around here are F4 and FR Americas - and those seem to be in the $200k to $500k per season to do.

Finally, the entry to any ladder series like the above or Road to Indy is very opaque. And even if you do an enormous amount of digging because of your individual determination (like I have done) all you see is that it is hundreds of thousands of dollars to even try, little exposure, and no recognized value to potential sponsors to foot the bill, assuming you are enterprising enough to try that route.

These are the reasons I have seen that explain the lack of open wheel numbers.

Jeff

[TimH]

Finally, the entry to any ladder series like the above or Road to Indy is very opaque.

If you've had multiple podiums in karts the process will have been made more clear to you. Otherwise, you're wasting your time as cannon fodder in a ladder series.

Vintage is the clear future for amateur open wheel.

[Rick Kirchner]

I bought my Star Formula Mazda one year ago. besides SCCA, vintage, and a few FRP events I don't know how I can race it. And track days/test & tune? Without being with a race weekend, I don't see many options in the Midwest for open wheel at all, racing or track days for practice/testing.

I spent a lot of time with NASA and would like to race with them, but they said there is no way they will allow open wheel to mix with sedans in a racing environment.

The only other options I see around here are F4 and FR Americas - and those seem to be in the $200k to $500k per season to do.

Finally, the entry to any ladder series like the above or Road to Indy is very opaque. And even if you do an enormous amount of digging because of your individual determination (like I have done) all you see is that it is hundreds of thousands of dollars to even try, little exposure, and no recognized value to potential sponsors to foot the bill, assuming you are enterprising enough to try that route.

These are the reasons I have seen that explain the lack of open wheel numbers.

Jeff

A lot here that I don't understand. You aspire to upper level open wheel racing but bought a PFM? It's not a bad start after Karts/FF, but only for a season before moving on to something with a future.

SCCA, vintage clubs, and FRP are the options, nothing else really. Being the only open wheel guy at a NASA event (even if they let you run) not really racing, just a practice day with a lot of traffic.....You can practice at most tracks on the Friday before an event where open wheel cars will be running. Otherwise, it's rent the track as a private test day and invite as many others you know to offset the cost.

The USF2000 site has the info to get started here: https://www.usf2000.com/about/q-as

Did you utilize the huge archive of posts in the Apexspeed Getting Started sub-forum?

[janton9736]

I now realize my future as a race car driver was already foreclosed when I graduated high school, in the present era of 5-10 year olds doing Karts to F4. But I think the entirety of motorsport should say that is bull****. Seems plenty of winning Indy and F1 drivers many call greats didn't start racing until their 20s. I'm one of those who had to earn their way in by establishing a business or profession first. In my case, one of each.

The present "Karting Is The Only Way" would have totally prevented Mario Andretti from doing spit.

Rest assured I am not criticizing you. I am criticizing the state of things in racing.

QUOTE=TimH;653060]If you've had multiple podiums in karts the process will have been made more clear to you. Otherwise, you're wasting your time as cannon fodder in a ladder series.

Vintage is the clear future for amateur open wheel.[/QUOTE]

[E1pix]

For better or worse — and like you, I vote “worse” — the pathway to a pro road race career via Mario’s methods probably ended shortly after Mario did it.

Karting has been the best starting point to road race from for a good fifty years now. The circle-track route hasn’t changed all that much, if one seeks a career in NASCAR there may still be a chance via stock cars and the like.

Plus Mario was one of the relative few in history that circle-tracked his way to road racing.