Ceramic Wheel Bearings

[Purple Frog]

Admittedly one can go absolutely bonkers trying to read the GCR for a clear understanding of the rules.

In my current case I have been trying to figure out if Ceramic Wheel Bearings are legal in FF. One seems to get into a circle of references that keep pointing at each other without a clear sentence that says, "Ceramic wheel bearings are not legal." or "only metal wheel bearings are legal." or, "wheel bearings must be steel." or even, "wheel bearing can be any material."

I think the GCR implies that wheel bearings can be steel or aluminum. (my humble interpretation) Aluminum wheel bearings? Really?

Does anyone in the hive know the true answer ?

[R. Pare]

Read the first paragraph of the General Construction Requirements,

[Purple Frog]

You have a page number? or chapter and verse number?

I was hoping for a yes or no answer with pointed references. LOL

[Purple Frog]

Page 216 of online GCR

2. General Construction Restrictions

NOTE: Contained herein are the 1986 Formula F chassis construction requirements, revised January 1, 2013.All new Formula Continental and Formula F cars are to be built to these specifications. Any class-specificdifferences are stated explicitly. For cars registered prior to January 1, 1986, see section B.21. The useof carbon fiber and/or Kevlar reinforcement, titanium, beryllium, metal matrix composites, ceramics, highstrength composites and similar materials is prohibited unless specifically permitted. The use of the word “unrestricted” in any section does not indicate the allowance of these prohibited materials. The use of non-metalmaterials for seals, bearing and bearing liners, thread locking systems, windscreens, mirrors, instruments,wiring, electronic systems, electrical systems, hydraulic and oil and cooling systems, etc, are permitted unless specifically restricted.Fuel Capacity: Maximum capacity 41 lite

Page 238 of online GCR:

All components shall be of steel, with the exception of hubs, hub adapters, rear hub carriers, and bearingsand bushings.

[Purple Frog]

Based on post #4 I'm reading it that ceramic wheel bearings are legal. Am I correct? If not show me where I am wrong.

My searches never found the term "wheel bearings" used. Never found the word "wheel" used with the word "bearing".

[R. Pare]

Page 238 is relevant only to pre-1986 cars.

For post-1986 cars, Ceramic wheel bearings are not specifically allowed.

The use of carbon fiber and/or Kevlar reinforcement, titanium, beryllium, metal matrix composites, ceramics, high strength composites and similar materials is prohibited unless specifically permitted."

[Purple Frog]

What about this sentence in "General Construction Restrictions" page 216?

The use of non-metalmaterials for seals, bearing and bearing liners, thread locking systems, windscreens, mirrors, instruments,wiring, electronic systems, electrical systems, hydraulic and oil and cooling systems, etc, are permitted unless specifically restricted.

Seems to me that makes them legal.

I can not find a statement that says wheel bearings are "specifically restricted".

[R. Pare]

"non-metals" is a generic term that covers all sorts of materials. However, the rule states that the restricted materials that are listed can only be used when specifically allowed. Ceramics are specifically NOT allowed per that list, and are not specifically allowed anywhere, as the rule states must happen.

[Phil Creighton]

Non metal bearings - think delron bushings etc as an example.
Still does not specifically allow ceramic wheel bearings. I thought the general construction covered it quite well and why are we thinking of going down this rabbit hole anyway.
We have been down this road before with a pro team I am pretty sure.

[Purple Frog]

Many don't agree with you based on that sentence in post #7 that says they have to be "specifically restricted". And no where does it say Wheel Bearings are specifically restricted.

I fear this is a case of "intention of the rule" vs. what the rule actually reads.

In the rule it says "bearing", it does not specify what bearing. Can be wheel bearing, engine bearing, steering shaft bearing, etc., etc.

[Purple Frog]

We are going down this "rabbit hole" because people would like to know before the Runoffs.

[R. Pare]

People can disagree all they want, but the wording of the rules regarding restricted materials and how they can be specifically allowed somewhere are pretty clear - ceramics are in that list of specifically restricted materials, and stays restricted unless it is specifically unrestricted - and nowhere are ceramics specifically unrestricted - it doesn't matter the use, as it is nowhere specifically unrestricted for that use.

[Purple Frog]

The rule says "specifically restricted". Not 'specifically unrestricted' like you claim. Read #7 again.

[Purple Frog]

To compound the confusion even more... Some told me that since ceramic wheel bearing were legal pre-86, and there is no "specifically restricted" wording post-86, then the precedent set is that they are still allowed. Just saying.

[R. Pare]

Here is the pertinent sentence:

"The use of carbon fiber and/or Kevlar reinforcement, titanium, beryllium, metal matrix composites, ceramics, high strength composites and similar materials is prohibited unless specifically permitted"

Please not that "specifically permitted" and the wording I used to make the thought process simplified - "specifically unrestricted" - mean the same thing, AND that nowhere are ceramics listed as "specifically permitted" for anything.

And, once again, the pre-86 rules have zero relevance to the post-86 rules.

[Purple Frog]

You seem to be completely ignoring this sentence in the very same paragraph:

The use of non-metalmaterials for seals, bearing and bearing liners, thread locking systems, windscreens, mirrors, instruments,wiring, electronic systems, electrical systems, hydraulic and oil and cooling systems, etc, are permitted unless specifically restricted.

[R. Pare]

And ceramics are SPECIFICALLY RESTRICTED per the first list, and HAVE NOT BEEN SPECIFICALLY PERMITTED for any of those uses mentioned in that second list - eg - the word "ceramics" would have to be stated in order for ceramics to be SPECIFICALLY PERMITTED.

[Purple Frog]

Richard, Richard, Richard...

You keep writing "specifically permitted" in your posts.

But the rule clearly says "specifically restricted".

[R. Pare]

Try actually reading the F'n rules, word by word.

The first sentence specifically restricts certain things including ceramics, and also states that those certain things stay restricted unless specifically permitted. NOWHERE in the second sentence does it say that that ceramics are specifically permitted.

It is beyond obvious, and I've wasted too much time on this non-issue.

[John LaRue]

As a member of the CRB I am not going to weigh in on this discussion online or offline. Regardless, any comment that I might make is only my personal opinion and not that of the CRB; it certainly won't carry any weight with Tech. I will only say that it is awfully late to be concerned about the compliance of a car which is competing at Runoffs in a few weeks. If it were me and I had any concerns, I would ask for a compliance review under GCR 8.1.4 immediately. I am not sure there is ample time for a response to be provided in advance of Runoffs, let alone to provide time for prep, but you won't know unless you ask.

[Purple Frog]

7.a. page 220:

a. All suspension components shall be of steel or ferrous material, with the exception of hubs, hubadapters, hub carriers, bell cranks, pivot blocks, bearings, bushings, spring caps, abutment nuts, shockabsorber caps and nuts, which may be of aluminum alloy. Material restrictions as set forth in SectionB.2 above shall control.

I'm thinking this paragraph says FF bearings must be steel or aluminum alloy. As I pointed out in post #1.

So does 7.a. override paragraph Paragraph B.2 ? Yes?

My opinion, which OBTW has no weight, is that if you only read B.2. ceramic bearings appear legal. But, 7.a. seems to "specifically restrict" bearings in the FF suspension to be steel or aluminum.

Sure would like a definitive opinion that was "Official". I totally understand the difficulty in that request.

[R. Pare]

No, it does NOT overrule, and in fact refers to the restrictions stated in section B.2 as controlling. Once again - in that B.7.a rule, have ceramics been SPECIFICALLY PERMITTED as required via this rule on it's restricted use?


"The use of carbon fiber and/or Kevlar reinforcement, titanium, beryllium, metal matrix composites, ceramics, high strength composites and similar materials is prohibited unless specifically permitted"

Answer: NO.

[Purple Frog]

Richard,

I think I am completely agreeing with you that Ceramic wheel bearings are illegal in SCCA FF. I just arrived at that conclusion from a different part of Paragraph B.2.

I'm laughing, because in all your posts you never said ceramic bearing were illegal, you just kept pointing people at the rules for them to interpret. I'm out and out saying they are illegal, but my opinion is worthless.

White Shirts are always saying "read the GCR", or "file such and such a document". No one just wants to say something in black and white. And, I understand why so many express grief over the process.

[R. Pare]

The rules do not have to state explicitly that ceramic bearings are illegal. The use of ceramics ANYWHERE is illegal UNLESS SPECIFICALLY PERMITTED. To be specifically permitted, the word "ceramic" would have to be used in order to give specific permission of its use.

Period. End of story.

[TimH]

..and some wonder why SCCA participation is down...

[Purple Frog]

And now the rest of the story...

There are retailers telling kids that to be at the pointy end of the grid you have to have ceramic wheel bearings. The selling point being they are "n" seconds faster on a track with long straights.

It probably isn't true. We all know probably most important is all the bearing setup and preload, yadda, yadda. Not whether they are ceramic or not.

The kids also get told, "everybody is doing it.", and "they don't check anyway."

So... what's a kid to do? Another moral dilemma to face in one's young life.

Kids call me, all I can say is "Read the GCR."

I had thought ceramics were legal... he called back and pointed out 7.a.

[Jonathan Lee]

Froggy is back in Action!

Haven't seen you on here in a while...

[Purple Frog]

Jon,
Might have to get back on the witness protection program after this afternoon.

[billtebbutt]

And now the rest of the story...

There are retailers telling kids that to be at the pointy end of the grid you have to have ceramic wheel bearings. The selling point being they are "n" seconds faster on a track with long straights.

It probably isn't true. We all know probably most important is all the bearing setup and preload, yadda, yadda. Not whether they are ceramic or not.

The kids also get told, "everybody is doing it.", and "they don't check anyway."

So... what's a kid to do? Another moral dilemma to face in one's young life.

Kids call me, all I can say is "Read the GCR."

I had thought ceramics were legal... he called back and pointed out 7.a.

My understanding is that the ceramic balls aren't the only expensive bit. The tube of grease you need for them is apparently a few hundred bucks!

cheers,
BT

[Westroc]

I am glad to see the subject brought up even though I have no dog in the fight. What I fail to see or hear is the availability of steel wheel bearings with smaller balls inside or just put five not six in (or pick a number). Surely people know about this? Surely. I thought this was a given and everybody knew about this. Yes. No.????? I know there are 2 suppliers at least. The guy in California said to me he a choice of which ball size you want for Gods sake. Some express this as a percentage smalller rather than a size per say. This stuff exists in karting today over the counter!

Hell you want to talk about something "cutting edge" lets talk about GPS assisted braking. Can't be done? Really. Oh yes it can. I would love to see somebody figure it out. Then I would love to see SCCA write a rule(s) for that! Bet you I live long enough to see it happen but not long enough for the rule. If you still doubt it happening look at what Audi did with steel pistons in those Lemans cars. Look it up in Race car Engineering. Makes a nice read.

[problemchild]

The use of non-metalmaterials for seals, bearing and bearing liners, thread locking systems, windscreens, mirrors, instruments,wiring, electronic systems, electrical systems, hydraulic and oil and cooling systems, etc, are permitted unless specifically restricted.

Here is the pertinent sentence:

"The use of carbon fiber and/or Kevlar reinforcement, titanium, beryllium, metal matrix composites, ceramics, high strength composites and similar materials is prohibited unless specifically permitted"

While I am not a rocket scientist, I find these two statements in conflict. I certainly do not understand how anyone could be absolute in arguing either way.

I will confirm that my cars do not have ceramic bearings although I do use very expensive wheel bearing grease, and have to pay my mechanics to frequently service our wheel bearings. The Mygales have oddball wheel bearings, and I would be very confident, considering the current racehire pricing, that non of the other Mygale teams can afford to be messing with ceramic wheel bearings either. Since there are VD ceramic wheel bearings for sale, and some Piper teams focus on such low drag technologies, I would expect that any ceramic wheel bearing use would be limited to a few single car teams.

If the consensus is that ceramic bearings are illegal, certainly within the spirit of the class, there is still lots of time for any offending teams to make their cars legal for the Runoffs.

Although there are 3 "long straights" at VIR ..... one is actually a series of bends and you cannot pass there unless the lead car lets you ...... the start finish straight is preceded by the most difficult corner sequence on the track with a medium length straight to the line ..... leaving the back straight as the only true undefendable "long straight" on the track (like most of our tracks). I believe the VIR Runoff winner will be one of the best drivers, in one of the best handling cars, with good straight line speed. A car with great straight line speed, which will not brake or handle, and not the best driver ...... will be racing for the bronze. You can mark these words and reassess on October 2.

[alangbaker]

I have no dog in this fight...yet.

If I try to qualify for the Runoffs, it's probably going to be in 2024.

That having been said:

GCR 9.1.1.B.2

2. General Construction Restrictions

NOTE: Contained herein are the 1986 Formula F chassis construction requirements, revised January 1, 2013. All new Formula Continental and Formula F cars are to be built to these specifications. Any class-specific differences are stated explicitly. For cars registered prior to January 1, 1986, see section B.21. The use of carbon fiber and/or Kevlar reinforcement, titanium, beryllium, metal matrix composites, ceramics, high strength composites and similar materials is prohibited unless specifically permitted. The use of the word “un-restricted” in any section does not indicate the allowance of these prohibited materials.

Note, "unless specifically permitted".

Now, since the other text quote doesn't specifically allow ceramics, they are still prohibited.

At least, that's the way I see it.

[problemchild]

If anybody is planning to run ceramic bearings at the Runoffs, please speak up, and we can organize a protest to settle the matter going forward. Thanks!

[car7316]

I have tried both, and tested them on an upright dyno. The big gain with ceramic bearings is not the friction, rather the weight and the fact you can run little or no grease because of the heat properties. They are faster, but certainly not "n" seconds a lap. They take a beating though. IndyCars run steel balls, and they roll really well when the entire bearing is set up correctly. You can spin a right rear tire at the speedway and come back 10 min later and it will still be rolling.

I haven't run a ceramic bearing in a few years. The rules in SCCA should be clarified. It's as simple as adding a sentence that either allows or disallows them. They are damn expensive, I'd rather they be completely dis-allowed myself.

Let's not make this stuff any more expensive than it already is.