Most competitive cars?

[steel_3d]

Hi!

I'm looking into getting a prototype, and trying to understand which ones are competitive and why.

This is sort of the list: Wolf GB08, Norma M20/Nova NP01, Elan DP02.

I'm leaning towards the Wolf because of the 400hp option and the two seater option. But they don't seem to be competitive these days. Neither in P1, nor in Europe on tracks or hillclimbs. Anyone have an explanation? On paper they should be great. Is it just down to the teams running them?

Norma seems to be dominating in Europe and doing well in P1. Elan seems to be great in P1 as well.

Is it the chassis/aero? Given the same power (theoretically), which one would win? Wolf, Norma or Elan, and why?

Wolf seems to have a lot of advantages. There are quite a few of them in the States. Spring Mountain seems to be a convenient home base with regular races, storage, maintenance, etc. A two seater with the 400hp 1.6L sounds.ideal. But trying to understand a lot of things.

-Are the SM versions faster than the CN versions (given same engine)? Better aero or anything?
-Is the 400hp 1.6 allowed at all in P1? Or is it so restricted as to be uncompetitive?
-I assume the 400hp is allowed unrestricted in ASR and NASA SU?

Is one of the makes more reliable than the others?

Appreciate any insights! Thanks!

[Dave Gomberg]

Hi!

-Is the 400hp 1.6 allowed at all in P1? Or is it so restricted as to be uncompetitive?

All P1 1600cc 4-cycle engines are restricted by requiring 40mm chokes.

-I assume the 400hp is allowed unrestricted in ASR and NASA SU?

Yes for ASR. ASR is a regional-only class.

I don't know enough about the Wolf to answer any of your other questions.

Dave

[Purple Frog]

Sort of depends what you want to do with the car. Racing in SCCA involves following closely to a very defined rule structure. Racing in many other venues maybe not so much. There are many series based just on one chassis. And some clubs have broad "catch all" classes that is almost "run what you brung".

[GAC]

Of the three cars you mentioned, the top P1 runners run the Elan DP02. Jim Devenport has a DP02 and a Norma, and he is much quicker with the DP02. I have only seen a Wolf run once, and not against the top guys. It was quick. I’d recommend a DP02 based on what I have seen, or a Stohr WF-1 if you don’t want to spend that much.


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[TimH]

A well-driven Stohr can be amazing. You'll have to be pretty good to get the most out of any of your choices.

[steel_3d]

Thanks, GAC, that's good info! I didn't realize Davenport also had a DP02. Was really wondering what makes DP02 so dominant in P1, and I ran across this page with some answers:

https://www.teamcranbrookracing.com/news

The July 22, 2020 update shows the acceleration advantage of the Mazda 2.5 over Honda 2.0.

The November 27, 2019 update basically says the CRB is playing kingmaker, restricting cars like the Norma and favoring the DP02, ostensibly to attract more competitors.

Does anyone have a different understanding?

Are there inherent advantages to any of these chassis, or is it mostly about the different BOP restrictions in each series?

My guess is that an original spec DP02 would also not be competitive in P1, requiring the latest mods to be competitive.

[lowside67]

A ton has changed in BoP between 2020 and now. The reality is that the current crop of DP02s are almost a new car at this point - Zebulon/HRP have designed new floors, complete bodies, front diffusers, and wings plus a variety of small gadgets. They are running all new 2.5L motors that make more power than ever before etc.

Lee in his Stohr still puts up an excellent fight, but the reality is that no 10-15 year old CN car is going to be competitive with a new DP02, just like an original DP02 or even an original Stohr wouldnt either.

All the resources are going into DP02s and to a lesser extent Stohrs - since P1 is very much not a spec class, if you arent in a chassis that has been evolved recently, no ruleset is going to be able to address that.

I believe strongly that a Stohr is a good choice for P1, Lee's car is running a 2008 Hayabusa engine in it. There are other motors that could be better yet. A DP02 is a great choice, but is a $200k car at this point to build a front running one.

And don't discount the most important thing - driver. These guys are not just showing up to the Runoffs. They are running test days, they are working with professional setup teams, professional racing driver coaches, etc. If you want to win, you need to be prepared to operate at this level, and if you want to just be out to be quick and fun, than a CN car would be great in my opinion.

-Mark

[steel_3d]

Very informative, thanks!

So the key in P1 is essentially aero? I guess the CN cars don't have tunnels. Wonder if the SM version of the Wolf does. It's not clear from their documentation.

I'm quite confused on engines, and power to weight. 1.6L engines get a 40mm restrictor, all larger engines (except K20) get a 30mm restrictor. And the 1.6 gets lower weight. So the Wolf 1.6 turbo would seem to have an advantage there with more power and less weight.

I also don't understand why the larger engines get penalized on weight, since the same 30mm restrictor size should give pretty much the same peak power on all of them. How are the new 2.5's making much more power if they're on the same 30mm restrictor? Peak power should be about the same, and I doubt area under the curve is that different in the usable parts of their power bands given the same restrictor. The higher minimum weight should be penalizing the 2.5's in fact. I'm probably missing something about how restrictors work in practice.

[Stan Clayton]

I'm quite confused on engines, and power to weight. 1.6L engines get a 40mm restrictor, all larger engines (except K20) get a 30mm restrictor. And the 1.6 gets lower weight. So the Wolf 1.6 turbo would seem to have an advantage there with more power and less weight.

Turbocharged engine are not permitted in P1 or P2.

[GAC]

A larger displacement engine will suck more air in through the same size restrictor. The larger pressure drop accelerates the air to a higher velocity. It will take away a greater percentage of power, but the bigger engine will still pull in more air and make more power.


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[steel_3d]

Turbocharged engine are not permitted in P1 or P2.

Where can I find the regulations on this? I only see "6. Turbocharging and supercharging are prohibited." in the P2 section, no mention of anything in P1. https://www.scca.com/downloads/63619-gcr-august-updated

[Stan Clayton]

Where can I find the regulations on this? I only see "6. Turbocharging and supercharging are prohibited." in the P2 section, no mention of anything in P1. https://www.scca.com/downloads/63619-gcr-august-updated

Look above the P1 Engine Table in 9.1.8.J.4., where it reads "Engines not specified in the table below are not permitted in P1."

There are no turbocharged engines listed in the engine table, so turbochargers are not permitted.

[steel_3d]

A larger displacement engine will suck more air in through the same size restrictor. The larger pressure drop accelerates the air to a higher velocity. It will take away a greater percentage of power, but the bigger engine will still pull in more air and make more power.


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My understanding is that the whole point of restrictors is that they put an absolute ceiling on mass airflow (and thus horsepower, more or less). The ambient pressure and temperature is the same for all cars on track, they all use ram air, so the pressure on the front of the restrictor is basically the same for everyone. The air can only be accelerated to the speed of sound through the restrictor, and you can't get any more air in beyond that regardless of vacuum on the back of the restrictor. https://www.raetech.com/Restrictors/...r_Function.php

There can be differences in the low end, ie: a larger displacement engine will hit the sound barrier earlier in the revs, but I'm assuming most engines' usable rev ranges in any gear will be on the restrictor limit anyway if they're well optimized. Should make no difference in straight line speed. But maybe the restrictors are not so small that the smaller engines can hit the limit early enough.

Then there are still internal efficiencies in an engine to extract more power from a given mass of air, and maybe the new 2.5 engine has been highly optimized for the 30mm restrictor.

[steel_3d]

There are no turbocharged engines listed in the engine table, so turbochargers are not permitted.

It's also not mentioned that they're naturally aspirated. That statement "Engines not specified in the table below are not permitted in P1." sounded strange to me. There are very specific displacements in the table, but not brands or mods, other than on K20 and 13b. And the column is called "max displacement", so I assume not only those exact displacements are allowed, but displacement in between as well. Ex: K24 should be ok? Not sure why it's not stated more clearly that turbos are not allowed, as it's stated in P2. In general it's not clear what engines and mods are really allowed in P1, except in the case of K20 and 13b.

Dave Gomberg's answer also implied the specific turbo engine I mentioned is allowed.

It also seemed like CN cars would generally be allowed in P1. There's a CN version of the 1.6T, and a few CN manufacturers use them, including Norma/Nova.

My other assumption was that restrictors restrict horsepower of turbo engines the same way as naturally aspirated, so restrictors were a simple way to even the playing field (except for the strangeness with a turbo 1.6 I mentioned).

[Dave Gomberg]

I...

Dave Gomberg's answer also implied the specific turbo engine I mentioned is allowed.

....

Not really. The restrictor applies to all permitted engines. The permitted engines are in the table. My answer would have been easier to understand if I had included "permitted".

Dave

[lowside67]

There is nothing to be gained by being argumentative here.

The simple, and only official, way to take this forward is to request an answer via a letter from the CRB:
http://crbscca.com/

-Mark

[steel_3d]

Sorry, I didn't mean it as arguing, more pointing out that the rulebook is unnecessarily vague and confusing around P1 engines. I'm trying to suss out the intent of the rules, how restrictors really work in the real world vs theory, and other similar questions, to try to get a lay of the land in P1. And ultimately I'll probably need to write the CRB anyway. Thanks for the tip. But if people who have been in the sport a long time have not seen a turbo engine, it's pretty clear that it's probably not allowed...

[steel_3d]

Got official word from the SCCA. Forced induction is not allowed in P1:


P1 1. #33097 (Steve Marton) Wolf or Norma with 1.6T allowed in P1? Thank you for your letter. The P1 rules state that "Engines not specified in the table below are not permitted in P1." No spec line in the referenced engine table permits a turbocharged engine by engine series or requires a Turbo Inlet Restrictor (TIR). Please see GCR section 9.1.8.B.J.4 and the P1 Engine Table. Forced induction engines are outside the class philosophy. Please see the responses to letter #28809 in the June 2020 and September 2020 Fastrack Minutes and the response to letter #33123 in this Fastrack's Technical Bulletin.

https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_fi...pdf?1663336059


Looks like the GCR will be updated soon to state it explicitly:


P1 1. #33123 (Club Racing Board ) E&O clarification regarding forced induction In P1, GCR section 9.1.8.B.J, add a new part and renumber the section accordingly: "1. Turbocharging and supercharging are not allowed."


https://cdn.connectsites.net/user_fi...pdf?1663336071