Time to welcome in a new era of amateur racing...

[BLS]

"We can't all race Bug Eye Sprites forever."

Why not?

[BLS]

How much would an electric formula car weigh with battery, motor, controller, etc.? More than a normal ICE formula car? For instance, a car the size of an FF. Would it be the same - a bit more, or substantially more?

A Chevy Volt weighs in at 3500+ pounds, and that is with an incredible amount of weight reducing plastic materials. Batteries are heavy. Perhaps for race cars that only run 50 miles or so it might be doable.

[Hardingfv32]

This is completely indicative of poor SCCA management. Just interested in inclusion and adding to membership numbers. Crap like this is easy to accomplish, solving our current issues much harder. Probably beyond their skill set.

By definition EV's are going to require their own run group. We do not need more classes and run groups.

Let the EV's start their own club and solve all the new issue they will create. Let them prove they are worthy of our limited track time.

Brian

[John Nesbitt]

...
By definition EV's are going to require their own run group. We do not need more classes and run groups.

Not necessarily. EVs currently run with other classes on the East Coast. There is no intrinsic reason why they need their own run group(s).

...

Let the EV's start their own club and solve all the new issue they will create. Let them prove they are worthy of our limited track time.

By this logic, we would all still be running Spec Chariots, and complaining about those newfangled internal combustion engines.

[jphoenix13]

I googled it - hard to find weights on the FSAE cars, but the Formula E cars weigh 1900 with driver and battery. Interestingly they are introducing a quick charge pit stop:

"On-the-go battery recharging will charge cars in under thirty seconds, with approximately 600-800 kWh power in play."

So, the drivers will no longer swap cars (maybe they stopped doing that a while back?) - they can pop into the pits for 30 seconds and get a top-up. Still going to need some electrical infrastructure.

My RV has a 15 kW diesel generator, but not sure that comes even close to being able to charge a Club Ford-sized formula car battery in the 3 hours between run groups? Maybe it can, going to need some electrical engineers to chime in here at some point.

So, if one was to take a Crossle, remove the engine, gearbox, exhaust, fuel cell and some other ICE-related stuff and weigh it, how much would the new bits weigh? Electric motor, controller, battery, fire suppression - maybe a re-gen setup (whatever that looks like) to get some braking power back into the battery? Could be a wash? Or maybe a bit heavier, but you would have a pretty fast Crossle

Maybe save a bit on engine and gearbox overhauls - maybe not, what would the typical off-season maintenance look like?

[Garey Guzman]

I googled it

Maybe save a bit on engine and gearbox overhauls - maybe not, what would the typical off-season maintenance look like?

I googled a little too. Saw a kit for electric conversions of classic cars and includes the single motor, controller and regen brakes, listed at 250 lbs. The battery weight would depend on the size needed. Probably end up being a little heavier than current and Vintage 870-940 lb bare FFs.

That said, I wouldn't convert any of my cars, especially not the older ones. There should be plenty of time and gasoline for me to race them until I'm forced into racing retirement.

[Bardahl77]

There's plenty of fossil fuel replacements: how about a methanol/nitromethane mix? The engine builders would love it.

[Hardingfv32]

There is no intrinsic reason why they need their own run group(s).

....That we know of at this point in time. Why does SCCA have to be the first to develop this type of racing?

Nothing regressive or conservative about wanting EV's to start their own club. Why does SCCA have to be the home of any and all forms of sports car racing?

Brian

[problemchild]

Not necessarily. EVs currently run with other classes on the East Coast. There is no intrinsic reason why they need their own run group(s).

Really? If several dozen pinto-powered FC racers parked their own cars, or will only run in their own series, because they hate Zetec power ..... do you expect them to welcome FCEV? SCCA politicians are afraid to even put proven Mazda powered cars in the class.

If dozens of Formula Ford racers have left SCCA because the class was modernized with a 2010 vintage engine, do you expect them to welcome FFEV.

Ignorance is bliss. EV formula and sports racer cars need to be developed as a concept, so that several dozen progressive young people can invest in a new class. The majority of age 50+ SCCA formula and sports racer drivers have their head so far up their butts, that going EV is beyond their comprehension. As much as I hate to agree with Harding, the SCCA needs to be fixing the current problems, and leaving new technologies to people who can successfully bring them to market. With no offence to Dayle, or Fred, that is ultimately in all of our best interest.

[veeten]

A local Race school has 8 high performance EVs for track use ,. The biggest challenge is after less than 20 miles
at full speed they will need charging. If all 8 go on High Speed chargers the track will suffer a brown out.
It is a whole new world as they try to incorporate EVs.

[Chris Livengood]

Not necessarily. EVs currently run with other classes on the East Coast. There is no intrinsic reason why they need their own run group(s).





By this logic, we would all still be running Spec Chariots, and complaining about those newfangled internal combustion engines.

The SCCA and "own run groups" are pretty much non existent, especially for the classes (ahem) that they sell a walled garden product that is competed against for track time.

By this logic Superman is real.

[Rick Kirchner]

Just wait to hear the wailing if the states and the feds start taxing road usage fees and sales taxes for EV charging.

Tax per KWH? Or per lb-mile? Or a massive excise tax on tires.....

[Rick Kirchner]

Okay, at the risk of doing math in public - I'll take a stab at what I could easily find, and use a FC as reference:

I get ~ 8mpg on the pinto. I don't need debate, if you have a better number, provide it. This is, back of the envelope level engineering.

So lets use a 14 lap race on a 2.5 mile track as baseline. That's 35 miles. 35/8= 4.375 gal. Lets just call it 5, since that's pretty much what we have now. A true pro series might want to cover 100 miles, that would be ~12 gal.

An easy googled source says a gallon of gas is about 34KWH equivalent. 34 x 5 = 408 KWH

There's a chart that compares battery weighs/capacity across all manufacturers. Throwing out really inefficient stuff, you arrive at around 50lb/kwh

That equates to a battery weight of just about a ton.

Now, here's where prospective BS comes in. A low compression ICE engine spec'd for longevity and low cost isn't particularly efficient. So you could make the assumption that the electric motor is 3x as efficient - no cooling loss, no tailpipe loss. So now you're down to a 700lb battery. If your assumption is 4x as efficient, you have a 500 lb battery.

Add in the motor and controller posted earlier and you have 1000-ish pounds. Trade the regen brakes for the diff. FC slider is what - 650lb?

So in the first round of iterations you have a car with FC equivalent drivetrain - but it weighs as much as an Indycar....If you picked the 4x numbers, you have around 1400 lbs, plus driver, close to 1600 lbs.

So if you want FC level performance, then you have to get the car lighter (Carbon tub? Well why not, nobody gives a crap if a garage guy can fix it anyway). You'll still probably have to give up range.

Fire away.

Formula E ~ 1900 lbs/300 hp/45 minutes. That's pro, 50% longer than club. So reduce battery weight by 30%; 800 lb to 550-ish, so you still end up around 1700 lbs, a bit more if you drop the motor HP.

What does an Formula E cost, $300K?

IMHO, when the club figures out how to make a ton of money on this via Enterprises then either SRF and/or FE owners will either pay the bill to convert or get kicked to the curb. The production classes by then might have a LOT of cars - as battery capacity drops and the cost of putting in a new battery in cars not specifically designed for that, re-purposing them into race cars might be economically sound. And there will still be a bunch of SCCA guys that convince themselves that they aren't actually running vintage.

[problemchild]

Somehow, I don't think the makers of EV race cars are seeking the mechanical input from our community. Smoothing out the social and political good will is the objective in starting a relationship with SCCA and Apexspeed members. I don't expect that anyone would be expecting us to convert our vintage race cars to EV either.

[Dayle Frame]

Not necessarily. EVs currently run with other classes on the East Coast. There is no intrinsic reason why they need their own run group(s).

Correct John.

Initially, EVs will run with existing classes in existing run groups at the regional level. The SCCA does not dictate run groups for regional races. The GCR speaks to which classes can run together for safety reasons (weight differential, closing speed, etc.). Maybe in the future these classes attain national status....who knows.....for now and the foreseeable future, extra run groups is not an issue.

Dayle

[RSS]

As a point of reference, there have been 93 Formula E races to date and countless miles of testing and there have been zero RESS fires. There were also zero RESS fires in the Jaguar e-Pace series while it lasted.
There has been a few fires in the 12v batteries, all of which were quickly controlled by the teams in their pit box and resulted in no lost track time for other cars

Other than the whole MotoE paddock burning down right.

https://www.motorsport.com/motoe/new...aster/4353463/

[Fred Michael]

Other than the whole MotoE paddock burning down right.

https://www.motorsport.com/motoe/new...aster/4353463/

As is stated in the article, the fire was caused by a short circuit in the chargers and that then consumed everything. The Bikes did not start the fire

[Rick Kirchner]

As is stated in the article, the fire was caused by a short circuit in the chargers and that then consumed everything. The Bikes did not start the fire

True - but high current/high voltage is going to be something new for the general population. I'm sure a lot of places burned down before we got a handle on gasoline - and still do - but for the most part you can run away from a gas fire and you can see it. 90% of the people in this country really don't know how electricity works, so what we have now, as safe as it seems, will undoubtedly morph as it transitions to just a few highly skilled designers and specialized electricians, to something average joe can comprehend.

[phantomjock]

What does an Formula E cost, $300K?

IMHO, when the club figures out how to make a ton of money on this via Enterprises then either SRF and/or FE owners will either pay the bill to convert or get kicked to the curb. The production classes by then might have a LOT of cars - as battery capacity drops and the cost of putting in a new battery in cars not specifically designed for that, re-purposing them into race cars might be economically sound. And there will still be a bunch of SCCA guys that convince themselves that they aren't actually running vintage.

[TedV]

As Fred has mentioned in this thread, we are working on many things with safety being our highest priority. We (EVAC members) will start threads to float trial balloons, announce programs, etc.

Rest assured that the EVAC is thinking long term and strategically about this. There MUST be a partnership between tracks, regions, drivers and workers for this to be effective.

Dayle Frame

I wasn't going to reply to this thread but the question of Electric drives in KM autocross came up yet again today. Letters to the SEB, CRB, Advisory Committees, etc. have been an ineffective waste of time. But, let me grab a jigger of bourbon and the keyboard....

Dayle, has the EVAC been given access to all the member letters regarding EV’s that has been sent in to the CRB, various advisory committees, SCCA Staff, etc. etc. etc. etc. in the last 10 plus years?

Safety being the largest issue, I have already sent in links to the FIA Alternative energy rules years ago. Primarily the batteries ( power accumulators or whatever the FIA call them) need to be certified for public highway use. There are enough auto and motorcycle power systems to cover everything from karts to ground pounder car classes. I pointed out links and referrals to people already running EV’s on track and their willingness to talk with SCCA on safety and performance.

On the subject of How much damage could amateurs do? 2019 SCCA Solo Nationals had at least 2 lithium 12v batteries in meltdown mode sitting on the pavement from Street based cars as the owners, once realizing the battery is smoldering, risked themselves to yank said battery out of the car to save the car. Now what to do?? as folks stood around to watch them smoke. It seems the Amateurs didn’t know what they needed to do for the car to safely charge a lithium battery which lead to the smoldering fire hazard. They saw weight savings and ran with it before fully understanding the situation. Thankfully the batteries didn't fully involve and no one was seriously harmed. Read that as people will risk mayhem for a performance advantage.

In most all letters to class an EV other than 100% street stock: “Thank you for your input. EV’s have too much potential to be classed at this time.” Potential… how punny. And let me go look up the urban dictionary definition to “thank you for your input.” OK, Message understood!

An EV kart to run around a parking lot is cheaper than most street cars to run, more fun, but I get it. Someone will do something stupid, melt it down and everyone would suffer. Although, how many Zero Electric Motorcycles have melted down? It seems most EV’s that have melted down have been batteries made by LG Chem (design flaw from factory???) or modified Tesla batteries/home built without proper BMS.

Like fuel injection happened, EV’s will happen.

On how to regulate EV power I have requested information from SCCA and FSAE-Electric on the safety record and details on the Energy Meter that every FSAE-Electric car must run. Once both SCCA Staff and FSAE Staff understood I was looking for information for another letter to send in to SEB/CRB ….. crickets….. No answer to email or calls…. Dang, not even going to tell me “Thank you for your input!” ??? How rude!

Folks argue left and right on parity in regular FC, FF, F5 classes like Problemchild Greg pointed out. FSAE-Electric, which is sanctioned by SCCA, has SCCA members working, state all cars must run the Energy Meter measuring the voltage and current sent to the motor giving the Power. A way to set performance potential is, set a car weight, set a power limit, use the Power Meter with some math and power to weight parity is done. But you know, I could not get information to submit in order to point that out. Silent Car Club of America.

If EVs do get classed I’m sure I will not be able to afford them. On my short list of interesting cars right now are F5(F600 4-stroke NOT 2-smoke) or a back marker chicane of a P2/DSR. I could afford a parking lot Electric kart or FSAE-Electric from salvage E-Motorcycle parts but I will not hold my breath. I've been spending my budgeted play money elsewhere than with the SCCA the last couple of years. 31 year member.

I will go ahead and thank myself for my input now.

[problemchild]

Like fuel injection happened, EV’s will happen.

Thank you for your input!

I agree that EVs will happen. I would prefer that some dynamic group of young racers (engineers, business men, promotors) develop the concept and bring it to market. SCCA can include EVs at that point. Otherwise it becomes another drain on SCCA finances, good will, and manpower, just as the failed F3/F4 effort was. SCCA has more than enough "Now" to deal with, without forecasting the future.

[Terry Hanushek]

SCCA can include EVs at that point. Otherwise it becomes another drain on SCCA finances, good will, and manpower, just as the failed F3/F4 effort was. SCCA has more than enough "Now" to deal with, without forecasting the future.

How so?

[CornerSpeed]

I think this is a good forum to add, if nothing else to get the conversation started. I think we should also be talking about alternative fuels, like converting our ICE-powered cars to ethanol.

[Rick Kirchner]

like converting our ICE-powered cars to ethanol.

Well, races end up not being very long now, so roughly half the endurance might not be that big of a deal....

gonna have to pickle the engines anywhere it's humid though.

[Dennis McCarthy]

Electric race cars have been around for 8 or 9 years now at SCCA events.

It hasn't been much of an issue or a problem....




https://evsr.net

[Terry Hanushek]

Electric race cars have been around for 8 or 9 years now at SCCA events.

It hasn't been much of an issue or a problem....




https://evsr.net

Exactly

[problemchild]

Exactly

This is a forum for purpose-built race cars. If SCCA has asked for time on this forum, then that would suggest that they have some agenda to include purpose-built EV race cars. If their agenda was to allow Teslas into STU or STL, why would they care what we think? Introducing purpose-built EV race cars into SCCA will involve more new classes, or fighting the inevitable civil wars to insert them into existing classes. Meanwhile, they refuse to allow a few USF2000 cars to race competitively in FC so they can grow FX. Don't pee on my foot and tell me its raining!

SCCA continually dilutes itself to prevent other racing organizations from getting traction with potential new classes. It would be nice if SCCA would just focus on taking better care of its existing customers. When there are enough SREV cars out there to support its own class on the scale of SRF or SM, then provide a class for them. Until then, let other people invest money and time into their development.

[John Nesbitt]

This is a forum for purpose-built race cars. If SCCA has asked for time on this forum, then that would suggest that they have some agenda to include purpose-built EV race cars. If their agenda was to allow Teslas into STU or STL, why would they care what we think? Introducing purpose-built EV race cars into SCCA will involve more new classes, or fighting the inevitable civil wars to insert them into existing classes. Meanwhile, they refuse to allow a few USF2000 cars to race competitively in FC so they can grow FX. Don't pee on my foot and tell me its raining!

For at least the third time in this thread, there are already purpose-built EV race cars running without problem in SCCA.

[problemchild]

For at least the third time in this thread, there are already purpose-built EV race cars running without problem in SCCA.

Perhaps not a problem to you. A few people mention that there are cars running, but other than projecting that arrogant SCCA attitude, there has been no presentation of how many cars in what classes at what events. A few field-filling EV cars paying entry fees at regionals is a far different context than EV cars being inserted into the class structure and racing competitively at majors, SuperTour events, and the Runoffs. It would be nice if these all-knowing SCCA people would update the current situation and declare their agenda going forward.

BTW, one single post (#4) makes reference to some converted SR cars running as EVs.

I am essentially EV favorable, but think SCCA should worry about their current affairs. The attitudes being expressed by SCCA people and the racers in this thread would support that premise.

[Peter Olivola]

Perhaps not a problem to you. A few people mention that there are cars running, but other than projecting that arrogant SCCA attitude, there has been no presentation of how many cars in what classes at what events. A few field-filling EV cars paying entry fees at regionals is a far different context than EV cars being inserted into the class structure and racing competitively at majors, SuperTour events, and the Runoffs. It would be nice if these all-knowing SCCA people would update the current situation and declare their agenda going forward.

The agenda seems clear enough: To determine the issues involved when EVs are included in SCCA Racing programs.

Your concerns certainly fall into that agenda and should be communicated appropriately.

[TedV]

anyone care to share the pages in the GCR or Solo rule book that allow and outline the safety requirements and classes for EV beyond street stock?

Solo this year has classed something beyond a pure street stock EV which is Street Stock stripped of anything you want and you can run R comps not just 200TW tires. Although, I might need to verify those rules.

Regions are allowed to have any class they deem safe and folks want to run. Then other regions see what is being run and "OMG YOU CAN"T RUN THAT!!! IT"S TOO DANGEROUS!!!! ThE RuLe BoOK SaYs YoU CaN't UnLeSs It SaYs YoU CaN!!!" I have seen folks who have built a vehicle, gotten local permission, it goes viral, see the internet outrage, sent a letter to National and..... thank you for the input.... and they are left wondering, can I go to my local event next week or not? I see the intent of the EVAC as a way to standardize the requirements to safely run EV's at events.

Charlies evsr links, info, offer to talk to national office about safety has been sent to national office years ago. I know, I have talked to Charlie and sent the letter to national office. Have I mentioned thank you for your input?

SCCA corporate should be concerned with why people do not want to spend their entertainment budget money with the SCCA. Yeah, I have sent those letters in too wanting discussions on that. How many times do I need to mention the reply "Thank you for your input"..??? "SCCA will be here when you decide to come back." Oh really? Many folks decide to go play elsewhere and not hassle with the Inside Track knowledge most competitors find out about too late to be competitive to those in the know. If there are cars being built for classes yet to be announced, that just reinforces the Inside Track Silent Car Club that the average poor schmuck not in the know can't compete against unless they have super deep pockets. And if they can beat those in the know, those in the know change the rules. Yup, SCCA should be concerned about that . Please don't ask me to provide the names of all the folks I know who have left SCCA competition because of this as when I have asked them about it they all have told me to tell SCCA corporate to go " thank you for your input." themselves rather hard. Unfortunately, I still wanna play with cars per the discussion I had with Heyward back in the md 90's when he was working corners and I was working tires.

[Purple Frog]

Anyone watch the McMurtry with Max Chilton driving run at Goodwood (2022) on Friday?

Shazam!!!!

[TedV]

Anyone watch the McMurtry with Max Chilton driving run at Goodwood (2022) on Friday?

Shazam!!!!

i might not be a mathmetizer, but VW electric at 39.9 in 2019 seems faster than 41.2 in 2022 is there an inflation adjustment??? I'm not sure... I've been accused of being snarky in my comments...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8il5ohB8FYk

[Teuobk]

i might not be a mathmetizer, but VW electric at 39.9 in 2019 seems faster than 41.2 in 2022 is there an inflation adjustment??? I'm not sure... I've been accused of being snarky in my comments...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8il5ohB8FYk

That was only an early practice run. The actual run just occurred, improved the record by 0.82 second, and looked pretty wild doing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JYp9eGC3Cc

While I hope that gasoline-powered race cars never go away, I am excited to see what people continue to do with electric race cars.

Jeff

[TedV]

Yup! the little sucker was able to blow the record away today.

I love the surprised jump from the start line worker when suddenly the car is not there

[Chris Livengood]

Imagine the possibilities with something like this. Turn the fan off on the straights, run it at 50% for a kink and maximize forward drive, then run the fan 100% for the tight corners. Then imagine the consequences for the suspension.

Quite the engineering exercise. A lot of fun!

[Rick Kirchner]

VARA has tun three hillclimbs this year. On at least two of them, FTD was a Tesla Model 3. Nothing wild, just decent tires and wheels.

Today we had a group of what I would call your autocross and track day crowd, with about 5 vintage and SCCA full race cars sprinkled in. Two cars trailered to the event - a C7 Vette and a recent Camaro, battled for top honors among the ICE cars. Both were very well prepared and driven as during timed runs (3 each) the drivers were within two tenths - pretty amazing for not being able to run laps and having only about 6 runs prior to the timed ones. These two guys ran 1:00 flat with a range of between 40 and 75 hundredths.

The Tesla? About 1.5-2 sec faster, and looked like it wasn't even trying. The driver mentioned that the traction control was incredible - you just stand on the gas and it rockets off.

[Squidink]

Thanks for the link!

I may just try this out!

Electric race cars have been around for 8 or 9 years now at SCCA events.

It hasn't been much of an issue or a problem....




https://evsr.net