Time to welcome in a new era of amateur racing...

[dc]

As more and more manufacturers enter the hybrid and EV market, while simultaneously participating in motorsports in bodies like Formula E and Extreme E, as well as the new direction of LMDh and endurance series, it's about time we start looking toward the future of the SCCA with hybrids and full electric racing vehicles.

At the request of the SCCA, I'm opening this forum here on ApexSpeed to start the discussion on where formula cars and sports racers are heading as we move into the EV racing world.

[stonebridge20]

Just think how easy it would be to achieve parity with a simple twist of a Rheostat.

[emoji6]

[CARSHouston]

Due to the cost and complexity, You will NEVER see me racing or working on a hybrid or EV in amateur racing. SCCA does alot of stupid things, this would just be another one.

[John Nesbitt]

It's happening already. For several years now, Charlie Greenhaus and Entropy Racing have been running several EV sports racers in SCCA events. Called EVSRs, and based on updated Sports Renaults, they feature swappable battery packs. You can see them racing on the East Coast, both sprints and enduros. I believe that they have run the 25 Hours at Thunderhill at least once.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I think allowing them in Px/Fx etc would be fine.

They just can't eliminate the current cars. People are racing 20+ yo cars.

No one but the pros have the funding for this.

Facilities will have to pony up emergencies crews and electrical supplies to support this as well.

[John Nesbitt]

In terms of race groups, it would be a bit of a challenge. I have seen early iterations of the EVSR on track. Two things really struck me. First, how quiet they are - all you hear is bodywork noises in the airstream.

The other, and more relevant to race groups, is how fast they accelerate out of turns. Electric motor and all. Mixed run groups would be a real exercise in makes-speed-in-different-ways.

[TimH]

how fast they accelerate out of turns. Electric motor and all. Mixed run groups would be a real exercise in makes-speed-in-different-ways.

EV = Instant Torque. It's likely to favor a very different driving style, depending on tire choice. I can see pro teams getting factory support but it will be a very long time before folks give up their Spridgets, 510s, and Minis.

[billtebbutt]

As more and more manufacturers enter the hybrid and EV market, while simultaneously participating in motorsports in bodies like Formula E and Extreme E, as well as the new direction of LMDh and endurance series, it's about time we start looking toward the future of the SCCA with hybrids and full electric racing vehicles.

At the request of the SCCA, I'm opening this forum here on ApexSpeed to start the discussion on where formula cars and sports racers are heading as we move into the EV racing world.

Doug, may I ask that, in addition to the "Like" feature on Apex, given this new thread may we please have a "Dislike" feature enabled....


bt

[Chris Livengood]

If the SCCA is requesting it we probably should all run the other way.

[David Ferguson]

I hear Spec Prius and Spec Tesla are on the way... New Tesla charging station going in at the Buttonwillow track.

Tesla drivetrains are available on eBay -- the small 300 hp units should to pretty good in lightweight, er, smaller cars!

[Bob L.]

SCCA should get up with SAE and review their work in this area, been at it for several years.......Safety is the huge issue, followed by cost. Of course electric race cars aren't new. I recall an interesting offering from West Engr. at Orlando PRI show many years ago...aimed at us amateurs (armatures?) Chrysler's Patriot effort was cutting edge when it came out years before, ashame it never got developed.

This is something that will come. Most of us Ludites won't embrace with open arms, but then tin tops in prod classes, single seat sports racers, and bike engines/chains/sequencial boxes in formula and sports racing weren't instant successes, either. Same with electronic fuel injection. All now are in the norm. for both younger folks and a few old dudes. Just a matter of being pragmatic, so, thumbs up to DC to add the forum. Have one over on the MR2 owner's club for several years. Will likely happen on prod cars, sooner, as more factories get into them...

Wish effort well....step in right direction....Let's see how it goes.

I'll miss the sounds of speeds, tho...

Hope I don't get run over walking in the paddocks.....

Bob L.

Edit.... while at last year's PRI, there were several displays on electric speed.....one I recall talking with offered a Tesla based motor/conversion kit for street rods (parts to turn the power train to fore/aft from sidewinder)...as I recall the base unit was about $70K....don't recall if that included the motor/battery/controller.... so, will take some deep pockets to play in the pool.... hopefully, junk yards will have more "cores" based on self driving results to date...

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I hear Spec Prius and Spec Tesla are on the way... New Tesla charging station going in at the Buttonwillow track.

Tesla drivetrains are available on eBay -- the small 300 hp units should to pretty good in lightweight, er, smaller cars!

If it's like every other Tesla station, get in line, literally. I was at the one at the Del Monte center last year and there were more cars waiting than chargers.

The larger one near me rarely has a free space. Tesla people just park there.

[Fred Michael]

Thanks for the forum.

As an EVAC member I can say that our biggest priority is safety and we are doing our best to create rules that keep that in mind. The overarching document that will guide all SCCA programs is getting close to being sent to the BOD for review. These guidelines will hopefully give program heads, tracks, and competitors insight into what will be required of them to have EV's participate SCCA events.

Class rules are also being worked on.

There are several existing cars that are looking for a place to race as well as guidance to make sure that they meet SCCA guidelines. There are also several more that are not far away from being raceable.

Fred

[Purple Frog]

IMHO, a great forum to add to Apexspeed.

Technology marches forward.

[FVRacer21]

Many years ago, when I was a wee lad racing slot cars, I dreamed of scaling up one of Ron Mura’s motors and putting it in a car.

the only problem was the extension cord kept getting wrapped around the tires……..

I checked and the fastest slot car motors would free rev over 100,000 rpm. Today with the magnets they have, torque is more important than revs. If I was 40 years younger, I would do research into low torque, high rpm motors. I wonder if the current draw would be less if you treated them like engines that idled, rather than motors that came to a complete stop. Would need a gearbox just like today to keep the revs in a usable range.

There is still the battery question and all the other questions. Maybe there is a electrical engineer out there who could say if my dream held any potential today….

I think you could add a subcategory for alternate fuels, or maybe a hybrid would be best for now. A FV running on methanol blend, with an electric push to pass might be fun.

ChrisZ

[Garey Guzman]

Excellent idea, never too soon to start.

Thing is, the market for new cars is very small. I wonder how many brand new (not rebuilt or refreshed) cars come into SCCA every year. What ever it is, there is likely an even smaller percentage for Formula cars (which is all I car about). For my income bracket to be able to race, I will need a 5-10 year old version to buy and maintain. As BeerBudgetRacing said, put them in FX until the numbers grow, different size motors/batteries/wheels/wings should readily replicate all the different classes, probably to the point where we wouldn't need so many dang classes! Probably could just do equivalents of FV, FF, FC/FE and FA

[mikey]

I don’t think it’s time yet

one bad fire will melt the track and ruin everyone’s weekend

[azjc]

No interest whatsoever in an EV race car or series in amateur racing as a driver / owner.

[Fred Michael]

As a point of reference, there have been 93 Formula E races to date and countless miles of testing and there have been zero RESS fires. There were also zero RESS fires in the Jaguar e-Pace series while it lasted.
There has been a few fires in the 12v batteries, all of which were quickly controlled by the teams in their pit box and resulted in no lost track time for other cars

[mikey]

As a point of reference, there have been 93 Formula E races to date and countless miles of testing and there have been zero RESS fires. There were also zero RESS fires in the Jaguar e-Pace series while it lasted.
There has been a few fires in the 12v batteries, all of which were quickly controlled by the teams in their pit box and resulted in no lost track time for other cars

how many were managed and run by amateurs?

[problemchild]

As a grumpy old man, i accept that if it is something I would not want to do, then it is probably a good idea.

In the past decade, this forum has transformed to being mostly about vintage racing, as has SCCA racing in general, so I am hesitant to believe that much will come from either Apexspeed or SCCA's in terms of progressive thought. The irony would be if a "club" operating on a 1950s business model could facilitate new racing with 2020s technology.

Or perhaps, like F4/F3, SCCA could spend several million dollars developing EV racing, then give it to SVRA.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

As a point of reference, there have been 93 Formula E races to date and countless miles of testing and there have been zero RESS fires. There were also zero RESS fires in the Jaguar e-Pace series while it lasted.
There has been a few fires in the 12v batteries, all of which were quickly controlled by the teams in their pit box and resulted in no lost track time for other cars

Amatures are better at making a mess. Have you ever seen something sketchy on a club race car?

When these things trickle down to club level they are frequently worn out and need heavy maintenance, what do you think that is going to look like?

[jphoenix13]

Going to need some infrastructure, hard to find an RV hookup in the paddock, much less a row of 20 or 30 superchargers to fast charge between sessions.

I'd prefer that infrastructure money be spent on paving.

[Steve Demeter]

I honestly believe that the technology to bring pure electric cars to club racing will not be mainstream enough to make it interesting and affordable to the average club racer in our lifetimes.

Years ago there was an electric car series for colleges promoted by the Electric Motor Winding Association ( as best as I recall). I drove one of them for 4 races. While it was a neat thing we had 2 battery packs and had to drain them completely to get 10 laps at Mid Ohio. And the last lap on each pack was barely making it to the end of the run.

After about 10 years everyone lost interest and it went away.

And what about the charging infrastructure? Who will foot the bill. There were 6 or 8 cars in those races and the association brought a HUGE ( as in the size of a one car garage) diesel generator to charge the batteries. What track is going to make the investment to charge 30 or more electric cars?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I honestly believe that the technology to bring pure electric cars to club racing will not be mainstream enough to make it interesting and affordable to the average club racer in our lifetimes.

Years ago there was an electric car series for colleges promoted by the Electric Motor Winding Association ( as best as I recall). I drove one of them for 4 races. While it was a neat thing we had 2 battery packs and had to drain them completely to get 10 laps at Mid Ohio. And the last lap on each pack was barely making it to the end of the run.

After about 10 years everyone lost interest and it went away.

And what about the charging infrastructure? Who will foot the bill. There were 6 or 8 cars in those races and the association brought a HUGE ( as in the size of a one car garage) diesel generator to charge the batteries. What track is going to make the investment to charge 30 or more electric cars?

While I agree with you, the new track and ButtonWillow with the aforementioned Tesla charging station will have solar panels I believe. I also think ThunderHill recently installed solar as well.

Most paddocks COULD install solar panels and provide shade/shelter doing it. But I doubt that will be enough power to charge a bunch of cars quickly. They may have to qualify at 8am and race at 4pm....

[phantomjock]

Pun intended.

Energy for recharge Cost effective? Not unless you use nuclear power.

Else, virtually every EV charge station is run on - that's right, Fossil Fuel!

Less environmental waste from mining for battery components vs drilling for oil? Nope. The waste frm mining is HUGE.
Fire issue -- previously mentioned. and recall, there is a "Boat Load" of evidence on the bottom of the Atlantic!

The following quote from: https://lemansrace.com/le-mans-news/hydrogen-is-coming-part-1/

At present, the talk is electric, electric, electric, with most major brands committed to replacing part of, or all of, their entire ranges with electric-or part-electric models. But behind the scenes, Hydrogen fuel cell power is another movement and while it is still in arguably in its infancy, the technology behind it is progressing apace.

The methods for creating hydrogen on demand (in the vehicle) have been patented (ironically - one inventor was killed in the shooting in Buffalo, NY 05/14/2022). And, other options using a Hydride Storage System with a heating system are clear possibilities too. Weights and vulnerability (crash, etc) are being, and have been worked.

But, the MANTRA remains; EV! EV! EV! HYBRID! HYBRID! End all Fossil Fuels!

This should really be dealt from a factual standpoint - not one of emotion, or political expediency.
(and, H2 power might not be the solution either). But, US inventors have created generating systems that can electrolyticly convert H2O on demand and run in an I.C. engine. "Water powered" racing. There is an environmental goal to shoot for!

From an emotional standpoint; why has NASCAR made so many changes to "tighten-up" the cars. Fans want excitement. Not ROLLERBALL death and mayhem (just yet - wait a bit for more system collapse), but single car laps are no fun to watch. If they were, wouldn't they be selling tickets to test sessions and the stands would be full? Take away the SOUND of FREEDOM - you'll empty the stands.

So, why doesn't SCCA take it to the illogical extreme?

If you want EV racing be totally correct politically, create a SCCA Solar Challenge - an engineering challenge - but its not racing! Try putting 30 solar powered cars on Sebring and see how quickly you finish a session. (Oh, they could all be SPEC too.) Wouldn't that be the ultimate EV Challenge Cup? Nasty pavement to shatter a delicate chassis, add in overcast and rain to kill the power supply. Fun - NOT.

I'd rather run a Red Bull soapbox derby!

No, this reads like an organization pandering either to real pressure, or perceived necessity. But, it makes little sense.

So What - do we go back to racing in the streets? [From the fire road to the Interstate...]

This madness need to end.

Rant - OUT. Sorry - just got back from MAVERICK - and maybe it bled through...

[R. Pare]

Just wait to hear the wailing if the states and the feds start taxing road usage fees and sales taxes for EV charging.

[reidhazelton]

The world spins forward whether we go with it or not.

Yes, change is scary. Yes, there are challenges. Yet, it still happens. Part of that change is solving those challenges - and that's fun.

A lot of this thread reminds me of a line I read in a Carroll Smith book talking about tires. Something to the effect of how the new slick tire is an open question and how he was very skeptical about it.

We can't all race Bug Eye Sprites forever.

[Bob L.]

While I agree with you, the new track and ButtonWillow with the aforementioned Tesla charging station will have solar panels I believe. I also think ThunderHill recently installed solar as well.

Most paddocks COULD install solar panels and provide shade/shelter doing it. But I doubt that will be enough power to charge a bunch of cars quickly. They may have to qualify at 8am and race at 4pm....

Wonder if this will necessitate a name change? Just struck me as "funny".....Thunderhill gone solar.....how west coast is that? Thunderhill without noise? Somehow just won't seem right . Perhaps as lightening usually comes with thunder, maybe still on track. Of course NJMSP already has 2 "circuits" (another term to struggle over?): Thunder and Lightening.....so guess they are set?

Still adding the forum to Apex offers the chance to explore the future, as much as making lite/light of efforts......without harm or malice towards any?


Bob L.

[Dayle Frame]

As more and more manufacturers enter the hybrid and EV market, while simultaneously participating in motorsports in bodies like Formula E and Extreme E, as well as the new direction of LMDh and endurance series, it's about time we start looking toward the future of the SCCA with hybrids and full electric racing vehicles.

At the request of the SCCA, I'm opening this forum here on ApexSpeed to start the discussion on where formula cars and sports racers are heading as we move into the EV racing world.

Doug, et.al,
My name is Dayle Frame and i am the Chair of the Electrified Vehicles Advisory Committee (EVAC) and I am the Area 4 Director (MI, OH, IN, KY, WV). Our committee reports directly to the SCCA BoD.

The EVAC members suggested that we find a place on the web so we could to interact with racers. This forum was the logical choice as so many formula and sports racers "hang out" here. As I have an account, I reached out tot he brass here so I could request that an EV forum be added to the array of forums already here. Doug was gracious enough to help me out on this.

As Fred has mentioned in this thread, we are working on many things with safety being our highest priority. We (EVAC members) will start threads to float trial balloons, announce programs, etc.

Rest assured that the EVAC is thinking long term and strategically about this. There MUST be a partnership between tracks, regions, drivers and workers for this to be effective.

I will answer a couple of posts in this thread later but, for now, thank you for the space and i look forward to constructive criticism as we move forward.

Dayle Frame

[Dayle Frame]

I think allowing them in Px/Fx etc would be fine.

They just can't eliminate the current cars. People are racing 20+ yo cars.

No one but the pros have the funding for this.

Facilities will have to pony up emergencies crews and electrical supplies to support this as well.

No classes or cars will be dropped as EVs get folded in. That is not our mandate. We (EVAC) are building the framework for EVs to be folded into ALL levels of ALL SCCA programs......Club Racing is just one facet of our task.

Dayle

[Dayle Frame]

SCCA should get up with SAE and review their work in this area, been at it for several years.......Safety is the huge issue, followed by cost. Of course electric race cars aren't new.

A couple of us from the EVAC will be at MIS this week to work on the FSAE event there.

Dayle

[cory mcleod]

At present, the talk is electric, electric, electric, with most major brands committed to replacing part of, or all of, their entire ranges with electric-or part-electric models. But behind the scenes, Hydrogen fuel cell power is another movement and while it is still in arguably in its infancy, the technology behind it is progressing apace.

If we actually "followed the science," hydrogen would be the obvious choice. Sadly, even BMW gave up on it last year after being one of the earliest and biggest supporters. Even they could no longer deny that it's more important to tell society you're saving the planet than to actually do your best save it.

Welcome to the ESG world.

[Purple Frog]

Sort of tongue-in-cheek...

Since most successful "amateur" racers now show up with semis, I don't see a problem if each brings their own generator on board.

[swiftdrivr]

If it were about the environment, we wouldn't be denying jobs to Americans while we buy oil from terrorist. [and despite Kerry's promise, my house still isn't beachfront property.] This is political "virtue signaling" more than environmental, and as such, I see no pressing need to pursue it. However, as a technological challenge, I am sure the engineers in the club would enjoy it. Make a class for it, and if it draws enough support to finance its required infrastructure, go for it, but it isn't coming to FF, FC or anywhere else where we run cars built in the 90s. Like someone said above, I can't find 30 amp power for my RV at most sites. Unlikely to charge an EV between sessions..

[Ed Womer]

Well I wish you good luck with this and hope you will be successful in integrating EV's into SCCA racing. As a note and not a criticism our Formule Vee group had our own committee and the SCCA board rarely listened to anything that was proposed. they only listen to the few how have the loudest voice and not what is best for racing within the classes.

Due to the technical advances electric propulsion is now viable unless you drive more than 500 miles. So it is hear to stay for awhile.

Ed

[B Reid]

I did notice that Pitt Race had installed some new Porsche charging stations adjacent to the gas pumps.

[Dayle Frame]

I did notice that Pitt Race had installed some new Porsche charging stations adjacent to the gas pumps.

As has VIR. More will follow.

Dayle

[jrh3]

EV = Instant Torque. It's likely to favor a very different driving style, depending on tire choice. I can see pro teams getting factory support but it will be a very long time before folks give up their Spridgets, 510s, and Minis.

Heavy cars with tons of torque- tire manufacturers are going to love this.

[jphoenix13]

How much would an electric formula car weigh with battery, motor, controller, etc.? More than a normal ICE formula car? For instance, a car the size of an FF. Would it be the same - a bit more, or substantially more?