Shop-building mistakes

[Robins Ken]

All,

I am interested in understanding the mistakes we've collectively made when building a shop for our racing hobby/business. Let me save you the trouble of citing the obvious one: don't build it too small (can they ever be large enough?)!

We are beginning to plan out the next chapter in our lives, and we will end up on the NE coast of Canada with more than enough acreage (somewhere between 6-12 acres is in our snack bracket where we are looking). We will be "slightly" in the country, about 20 minutes form a thriving metropolis of some 40,000 people. As such, we will be on well-water, septic, and propane.

Here's what I am thinking about:

- 3,000 sq feet of shop space, well separated from the house
- Concrete slab
- Possibly indoor room for the trailer, but am also considering a carport off the side of the building
- Hot water on its own heater, 2 piece bath
- 220 (lathe, TIG)
- A single 2 post lift well off to the side of the shop
- What I would call a 1.5 story construction with a single plane canted roof, with a loft running down the length of the building
- Heat pump system (quite popular in the region, and this is an April-October residence for us)
- Epoxy floor coating
- LED lighting, if only for the need to almost never change a bulb/fixture
- Built-in sound system. Place needs to rock
- Am thinking seriously about a solar field install, as we have ample room for it and the region has a robust FIT program

The house will be a single-story mid-century modern design, so the shop can't really be a metal/pre-fab style: there will be a need to have it "fit in".

Yeah, there's a lot of work to do yet! I would appreciate your thoughts on what NOT to do, and of course, what should I be thinking about that I have yet to consider.

Thanks in advance,

BT

Hey Bill. Spend $ in the right places. Steel bench tops. 8 x 4 sheets slit the long way. Find a local fab shop to bend a 3/4 flange the 'long' way to stiffen. Get enough for at least a 24ft run of bench.Trust me. You will appreciate it. Def make. a dedicated carnage area. Weld, machine, rattle can spray, fibreglass, etc all away from the prime area. Fire extinguishers available in view. 6 perhaps. And more bench tops.

In floor heating a must. Access door position important. Leave the trailer outside under a 'porch' Power that sde.I would also consider a sprinkler/alarm system.

A wash tub is nice. Toilet? Maybe. Washtub could be multi purpose !!!!

Design in a beam with a chain come along to hoist cars/engines out. Run it over to a mezzanine.. Inexpensive and does away with the gantry solution. 3x3 box section slotted for the sideways travel and attached to the joists with bolts is good for 1000lbs.

I think you know the rest. Power, lights, ventilation, floor paint are all a one time thing. An overhang above the entry door is a functional feature. Sexy outside pot lights are way cool.

Pour the 'pad' 6 ft further to the back. Build a half height dog house for 'crap' You will accumulate crap Bill. It never ends. Dare I say lawn mower, ladders, etc etc etc.

No need to go mad but don't cheap out on materials and buy local. Who knows who you will meet. Guys you will use twice. Pay the going rate on time and the payback is immersurable. You are the new guy in the 'hood.

KR

[hdsporty1988]

Plumb compressed air around the shop. Eastwood sells kits that make doing so super easy and they don't leak! Consider at least one rollup air hose mounted by one of the doors for filling trailer and daily driver tires.

[EYERACE]

Plumb compressed air around the shop. Eastwood sells kits that make doing so super easy and they don't leak! Consider at least one rollup air hose mounted by one of the doors for filling trailer and daily driver tires.

Saw one at PBIR, got one for Christmas..........fill trailer tires and daily tires using one of those Ryobi portable cordless Power Inflator things that looks like a drill............very fast, no more having to run hoses outside. Only downside is if you need to go over or near 125 PSI

[Jorma]

Rick,
For a shop that elaborate....and since you have water anyway, I'd put in a shower stall.
Mike M.

Have an enclosed office for your PC, a desk or drafting board, 3d printer, etc. it keeps the dust out. Use the top of that office and bathroom to store light weight bulky items like shipping boxes and bodywork. If you have a high ceiling, you can run a course of home depot pallet racking all the way around the joint, put the workbenches and cabinets underneath, and then have storage space on the racks above. With deep racks you can even store cars up there using a forklift.

As far as the level setup surface goes, define an area that's a s big as you might ever need and have it recessed the depth of a set of scales and levelers. That way you can level the scales but never need a platform with ramps to get in the way. You fill the rest of the space in with cut lengths of wood.

I have a layout that I'll build someday

[billtebbutt]

You guys are awesome! So many really good ideas here, I appreciate your thoughts/experiences very much. I'm only going to get to do it once, so I want to do it right.

What a great resource. Thanks!

cheers,
BT

[Lotus7]

Plumb compressed air around the shop. Eastwood sells kits that make doing so super easy and they don't leak! Consider at least one rollup air hose mounted by one of the doors for filling trailer and daily driver tires.

When running air lines, remember that water accumulates in the lines, avoid low points and install drain-cocks where appropriate.

[JHerscher]

Since we are spending your money, a refrigerated compressed air dryer is a handy thing to have.

This one isn't too bad at around $650.

https://www.toolots.com/refrigerated...waAvRiEALw_wcB

I used to be an engineer & eventually managed a factory that was very dependent on compressed air. Even though our maintenance staff drained the drop lines daily, we would still get water in the air and in the devices, particularly in summer. As the engineer, I talked the boss into spending the money for a refrigerated air dryer. Completely did away with the need to drain the drop lines except as a PM thing monthly. Bigger benefit was getting the water out of the pneumatic-controlled equipment.

I was the hero of the mechanic staff (as much as an engineer can EVER be a mechanic's hero) for a day, anyway.

[scorp997]

Drive thru garage doors are very nice. A friend has them on his shop and his shop is large enough to drive his rig (pickup and double stack triple axle trailer) into the shop and leave it connected!

he also went overboard on the concrete thickness due to soil conditions and weight of truck, trailer, etc... his is 8” thick (!) but you should consider going over the minimum in your region codes.

[Roux]

3 phase electricity for Tig welder, lathe, manual mill, surface grinder, and CNC, or one big ass phase converter. With enough electricity to run everything without making the lights going out

I have a 3 phase motor and starter box to make 3 phase locally from 2 phase feed and no issues with 10inch Southbend and Bridgeport running off that

If your gear is 'heavier' than that, consider needing a 3 phase. For now, I am quite content with making my own fake 3 phase in house

Steve

[steve zemke]

Place overhead garage doors on the opposite side from the prevailing winds. East side of garage if prevailing winds are from the west. I have done it both ways and windward side makes for a colder, draftier shop .

[Rick Kirchner]

Place overhead garage doors on the opposite side from the prevailing winds. East side of garage if prevailing winds are from the west. I have done it both ways and windward side makes for a colder, draftier shop .

Not only that, but if you have the commercial style that rolls into a cylinder, those things will set up a drum solo that will drive
you nuts.

[PDM075]

Bill I did a complete house and attached shop rebuild over 4 years here in Vancouver (most expensive city in Canada to build) and can give my 2 cents.


1. Find a good reliable contractor. My first one flaked on us after we sat down and had multiple meetings- thankfully we did not sign anything or put a deposit down. A reliable and skilled contractor made our multi year massive renovation a lot less frustrating when dealing with multiple subtrades. Shop around and get references. Sit down to make sure you have one that understands your wants, needs and budget.

2. Budget 1.5 times what you think it will cost. With the ever rising costs of material and labour atm - budgets will be destroyed

3. It's always cheaper to build up. A 3000 sq ft shop on 3 levels is cheaper than a 3000 ft rancher. Floors and roofs add up. Walls are much cheaper.

As far as shop needs... don't build indoor storage for trucks and trailers unless you have cash to blow. A covered carport is much cheaper yet still keeps your rig off the ground (less moisture) and covered protecting from sun, rain and snow.

Size wise - will be dependent on zoning and bylaws. Most western Canadian cities in the GVRD no longer allow monster stand alone shops in the Lowermainland regardless if you can afford acreage.

Concrete pad.... 4 inches min. 6 in areas you are adding hoists.

Level ? It will be to code- but when I poured my 46 x 26 main shop floor I specifically asked for as little slope as possible- and my contractor with a concrete background was able to lay my floor with under 1 inch slope from end to end and near dead even side to side. I can reliably setup my hoists and my scale pads pretty much anywhere in my shop with minimal setup adjustment.

Insulate everything. You pay once... and cry once. But the savings in your heating and cooling is reduced over the long term. Plus living and working in comfort is something you simply cannot out a price tag on.

I layed radiant heat throughout my shops with a single on demand boiler that heats my house hot water, my forced air furnace in my 2 levels of the main house, and heats 1600 sq ft of my main shop and my underground machine shop at the back of my house underneath my kitchen and master bedroom.
I essentially doubled the square footage of my interior - but with updated insulation, windows, and hvac to current specs our natural gas bills are about the same to our previous house alone (old house circa 1963 specs.)

Powerwise I have a standard house 200 amp service as I'm not running a business , but I have mig and tig welders, 7hp rotary screw compressor, 220 hoists and lathe and presses in conjunction with laundry dryers. I have yet to blow a main circuit.

Lots of power outlets of course.

I made my shop modular with a large 4 post alignment hoist and a smaller portable 2 post lift - and small Quick Jack for my formula cars.

LED lighting is cheapest. I supplement lighting above my work stations and work areas.

I have 3 roll up insulated garage doors and 2 main exterior doors and 2 Access doors to my main house.

I also plumbed hot and cold water to my exterior faucets. (You'll thank me when you can wash your vehicles with warm water )

I went polished and burnished concrete with no coating. I clean my floors with a cordless shop blower and walk around in socks and slippers year round as it's so clean and warm.

I fit 10 racecars and street cars stacked and on hoists
Comfortably in my main shop without needing to squeeze around anything .

I built most of my storage off the walls and ceilings to maximize my floor space.

There's a ton of Facebook Garage groups I can point you to.... along with Garage Journal.

I can literally write a book on my shop design and build- but hope people can learn from my build.

[Rick Iverson]

Bill I did a complete house and attached shop rebuild over 4 years here in Vancouver (most expensive city in Canada to build) and can give my 2 cents.


1. Find a good reliable contractor. My first one flaked on us after we sat down and had multiple meetings- thankfully we did not sign anything or put a deposit down. A reliable and skilled contractor made our multi year massive renovation a lot less frustrating when dealing with multiple subtrades. Shop around and get references. Sit down to make sure you have one that understands your wants, needs and budget.

2. Budget 1.5 times what you think it will cost. With the ever rising costs of material and labour atm - budgets will be destroyed

3. It's always cheaper to build up. A 3000 sq ft shop on 3 levels is cheaper than a 3000 ft rancher. Floors and roofs add up. Walls are much cheaper.

As far as shop needs... don't build indoor storage for trucks and trailers unless you have cash to blow. A covered carport is much cheaper yet still keeps your rig off the ground (less moisture) and covered protecting from sun, rain and snow.

Size wise - will be dependent on zoning and bylaws. Most western Canadian cities in the GVRD no longer allow monster stand alone shops in the Lowermainland regardless if you can afford acreage.

Concrete pad.... 4 inches min. 6 in areas you are adding hoists.

Level ? It will be to code- but when I poured my 46 x 26 main shop floor I specifically asked for as little slope as possible- and my contractor with a concrete background was able to lay my floor with under 1 inch slope from end to end and near dead even side to side. I can reliably setup my hoists and my scale pads pretty much anywhere in my shop with minimal setup adjustment.

Insulate everything. You pay once... and cry once. But the savings in your heating and cooling is reduced over the long term. Plus living and working in comfort is something you simply cannot out a price tag on.

I layed radiant heat throughout my shops with a single on demand boiler that heats my house hot water, my forced air furnace in my 2 levels of the main house, and heats 1600 sq ft of my main shop and my underground machine shop at the back of my house underneath my kitchen and master bedroom.
I essentially doubled the square footage of my interior - but with updated insulation, windows, and hvac to current specs our natural gas bills are about the same to our previous house alone (old house circa 1963 specs.)

Powerwise I have a standard house 200 amp service as I'm not running a business , but I have mig and tig welders, 7hp rotary screw compressor, 220 hoists and lathe and presses in conjunction with laundry dryers. I have yet to blow a main circuit.

Lots of power outlets of course.

I made my shop modular with a large 4 post alignment hoist and a smaller portable 2 post lift - and small Quick Jack for my formula cars.

LED lighting is cheapest. I supplement lighting above my work stations and work areas.

I have 3 roll up insulated garage doors and 2 main exterior doors and 2 Access doors to my main house.

I also plumbed hot and cold water to my exterior faucets. (You'll thank me when you can wash your vehicles with warm water )

I went polished and burnished concrete with no coating. I clean my floors with a cordless shop blower and walk around in socks and slippers year round as it's so clean and warm.

I fit 10 racecars and street cars stacked and on hoists
Comfortably in my main shop without needing to squeeze around anything .

I built most of my storage off the walls and ceilings to maximize my floor space.

There's a ton of Facebook Garage groups I can point you to.... along with Garage Journal.

I can literally write a book on my shop design and build- but hope people can learn from my build.

Good stuff here

[Roland V. Johnson]

My friend's place that I use when I am back there. *Warning may be addicting*

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/...to-shop.51567/

[Will Velkoff]

Exhaust fan. The previous owner of my house was a fiberglass worker and installed a fan in the garage along with a heater in the loft. Very handy for when you have to start the car up in the garage and want to have the fumes sucked out. Also helps with pulling fumes out of the garage when we are brewing beer on our propane fired system!

[phantomjock]

If you have access to CAD, use it to help design your layout. I did, and was able jam as much stuff (cabinets, racks, cnc, compressor, welder, and 2 cars into my 2-car garage. While it was helpful - it has now been overcome. SO--be sure and add that extra room for growth! (AKA MISSION CREEP).

I really like my Hydraulic Quick Jack but it is low and still requires a creeper to work under the car. I'd love a lift - but don't have the floor structure - or ceiling height. 2 hints there. I keep considering an alternative using a couple of hydraulic heavy duty scissor platforms, with tall jack stands.

I'm studying how to put a ceiling hoist in. May have to go with a Harbor Freight-style model - but would seriously consider building the structure in at least over part of the floor space. That, and a rolling dolly would be really sweet.

I like Purple Frog's steel wall idea. I went with white melamine for ceilings and walls. It is now bright, bright, bright. Consider add sensor triggered lighting; so when you leave, they go out.

With no water in the space - at least have an eye-wash safety set up. And keep the MSDS handy for any products you are using, resins, cleaners, etc. Its always nice in the ER to be able show them what got past your safety glasses. Don't ask how I know.

If attached to the house - make sure to keep the air handler pick up out of the work area. You can exhaust a lot of fumes - but it is amazing how much those suckers can pick up and still deliver to the house.

Cheers - Jim

[schiconst]

FYI, I can't really add much to all the great suggestions. I can tell you that I recently built 2- 4,500 sq ft steel buildings with the intent of renting one. They are now full of all my toys! You can never have too much room !! Good luck, John Schimenti FF 69 & 20

[Ed Womer]

There are a lot of good comments here for a shop. I mentioned in an earlier post about a fan to exhaust fumes from fiberglass/paint/etc. and I prefer to have it pull off of the floor since if there is any dust/particles they will naturally fall to the floor and you can thank gravity for that. My system is a three speed furnace blower with the wires on a three gang switch receptacle so you can turn the fan on whatever speed you want. The blower is in a box which is made of wood and cardboard with a spot on both sides to have removable furnace filters. I then made a card board duct that goes in the window after you open it about 4 inches and blows to the outside. This method means no holes in the wall and just set up when needed.

In my garage where I used to live I brought air in from the window which went over the work table and the fan on the floor pulls all fumes/etc. to the floor and into a cardboard duct 4"x16" and exhausted into the attic and ultimately out the ridge vent. My neighbor would sometimes ask me if I was doing fiberglass since the smell was in the air but no one had any idea where it actually came from.

I am not a sloppy person when doing things but I have plastic sheeting on the floor in my fiberglass area just in case of a spill or gel coat spray collecting there. The duct up the wall had plastic sheeting stapled first then the duct so when I took it down to sell the place I filled the hole at the ceiling and painted it and no sign of what I had been doing. Also I had all walls covered with wafer board which is way better than drywall and much better covering, at least until wood products got out of hand price wise.

As a retired construction inspector with last five years in building construction, I heard a good term to keep in mind. If you can't see it from the street you don't need a permit. My advice for any interior work is learn the codes and all ways do anything electrical correctly since it can kill you if you get sloppy. Also if in a secluded area just keep in mind with satellites and areal photography any new structure will eventually show up in tax records so just because it isn't visible from the street you can't hide anything out in the open.

Safety first!

Ed

[Mark_Silverberg]

. Also if in a secluded area just keep in mind with satellites and areal photography any new structure will eventually show up in tax records so just because it isn't visible from the street you can't hide anything out in the open.

Safety first!

Ed

I have not found this to be the case - I had to go to the city to get a variance to build my shop. The zoning board of appeals had to come to my house to view the proposed location. Multiple inspections during construction. Never saw and impact on my property taxes. This is in a major suburb. They did not seem to care.

[Ed Womer]

You are lucky at least so far. Building permits are required for two basic reasons, providing safe construction for those unwilling to do so and a way to increase the property value which leads to assessment change and ultimately property tax increase. If your area doesn't obtain local operating expenses with property tax but other ways then you are lucky in that respect.

Ed

[Rick Kirchner]

In my home search out here we've run into homes with multiple un-permitted additions, etc. usually the new buyer is on the hook to resolve the deficiencies while in escrow. The county wants inspections, fines, fees, and back taxes in a lot of cases.

The most egregious example was a spectacular stone house in Fallbrook. On a big lot, all native stone, and the inside had been completely re-modeled and modernized with top notch materials and work. Beautiful and secluded.

Unfortunately, the original home was never permitted -at all. It was placed over its own septic system leach field and within required setbacks at the back edges of the property. The county had tagged it as unlivable.

it was on the market at 50% of market price, probably destined to be a tear-down for the lot.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Building permits are required for two basic reasons, providing safe construction for those unwilling to do so and a way to increase the property value which leads to assessment change and ultimately property tax increase.

At least in Cali, permits are really only for revenue. Case in point: You need a permit to replace a toilet. I believe in some counties retailers need to report the sale of these items to local building departments.

I haven't done a lot of construction, but I've been in several squabbles with inspectors and the process.
What was made clear to me by a supervisor is their inspections do not assure any work quality, only that they have looked and checked boxes that the code is met.

I work for a law firm that has done plenty of construction defect work. All inspected and permitted.
Who you have do the work is more important in good construction than the permit.

[SStadel]

Only about 10 years worth of design here. Heat in floor, A/C, compressed air 360 degrees around shop. Might be a little overkill for you. I spray foamed the walls 3.5" thick and blew in 18" of fiberglass in the ceiling. 9600 sq ft and I heat it for about $800 a year on propane in extreme northern Illinois. Enjoy the plans. 3-phase, 2 post lift, drive-thru for transporter, etc.

Steve
OFR Shop Elevations Con't 1-27.pdfOFR Shop 2nd floor 1-27.pdfOFR Shop 1st floor 1-27.pdfOFR Shop Elevations 1-27.pdf

[billtebbutt]

Only about 10 years worth of design here. Heat in floor, A/C, compressed air 360 degrees around shop. Might be a little overkill for you. I spray foamed the walls 3.5" thick and blew in 18" of fiberglass in the ceiling. 9600 sq ft and I heat it for about $800 a year on propane in extreme northern Illinois. Enjoy the plans. 3-phase, 2 post lift, drive-thru for transporter, etc.

Steve
OFR Shop Elevations Con't 1-27.pdfOFR Shop 2nd floor 1-27.pdfOFR Shop 1st floor 1-27.pdfOFR Shop Elevations 1-27.pdf

Well, I gotta say that the second floor lounge and kitchen is a little awesome. But I worry that if I make this space *too* habitable, my wife may banish me to it permanently!

cheers,
BT

[Rick Kirchner]

Well, I gotta say that the second floor lounge and kitchen is a little awesome. But I worry that if I make this space *too* habitable, my wife may banish me to it permanently!

If you expanded the upper level to 40' wide or so, you'd have a nice Barndominium. Room for a nice 4000 sq ft 4/3 up top, shop on the bottom. Heck, you could even bring dirt up to the upper level and have a 2-car garage up there.

[Pi_guy]

Well, I gotta say that the second floor lounge and kitchen is a little awesome. But I worry that if I make this space *too* habitable, my wife may banish me to it permanently!

cheers,
BT

Then don't forget the hooker and blow features.

[SteveG]

Then don't forget the hooker and blow features.

Are you talking headers and superchargers or something else ?

[jcolley]

...my underground machine shop at the back of my house underneath my kitchen and master bedroom...

This I would love more detail on. We are planning our home build now and I'm aiming for exactly this on a 10' ceiling basement. Any challenges you had in moving that all underneath the house, I'll take advice on. Obviously garage door height is a concern too.

[PDM075]

This I would love more detail on. We are planning our home build now and I'm aiming for exactly this on a 10' ceiling basement. Any challenges you had in moving that all underneath the house, I'll take advice on. Obviously garage door height is a concern too.

My house rebuild and shop build was massive. On a scale that most could not fathom both in scope and cost.

I have not really documented it fully on Garage Journal - only have shown details on a few Garage Forums on Facebook and on my personal Facebook page.


Lets just say I had to move 196 dump truck loads of dirt off my residential property and rebuilt the foundation on 3 sides of my existing house AND build concrete exterior perimeter retaining walls on 2 sides of my property to be able to dig down far enough to achieve 10 foot garage height AND retain the existing 2nd floor without any stairs along the 2nd level.....

My underground machine shop we had to support the entire back side of the house with a 50 foot steel beam with cribbage on either side while we went in and dug out that portion (only to 7 feet to save redoing the final 4th side of foundation)

Sadly this forum is somewhat cryptic for adding pictures to posts and would take me months to put a post up documenting my build lol.

If you want to see/ask me more and on Facebook - send me a message and we can chat.

Don

[Rick Iverson]

Sadly this forum is somewhat cryptic for adding pictures to posts and would take me months to put a post up documenting my build.

Don

Don;

Easy. Hit the icon shown here when replying or posting a new thread. Two choices to upload from: A URL, or your computer. Make the photo selections and hit upload.

[john f]

Radiant heat in the floor is wonderful. If you're only dealing with formula cars you don't need the lift, only an A frame. I have all equipment and shelving on wheels. It makes keeping the place clean much easier. For appearance, make the building look like a horse barn with wood siding and barn windows.

If you keep the building heated all the time, floor heat is fine. If you plan on turning heat up and down daily of every couple of days, floor heat is slow to come up when you want it.

john f

[cjahn]

We are blessed to buy a place with a 30x40 detached and a second shop 20x30 (Est) in Colorado. This is the sellers pictures but love input on the thread. Planning on the "small shop" as dirty area and big shop as car work.

[Dougie]

I hired an architect to design the the exterior of my race shop to match the style, feel, and propositions of the existing 1927 mediterranean home we bought in 2015. The existing detatched garage was dilapidated and too small for my needs, but the side yard on the one acre lot had plenty of room. The two story design accommodates car storage and race prep on the lower level and storage on the second level. The in floor radiant heat throughout has been one of my favorite additions. Everything is plumbed or wired in the walls. It's my favorite place to be on a cold winters day.....

https://flic.kr/s/aHskqKKaoj

[patman]

1) big doors! As many and as big as you can fit.
2) I have a customer with a building with polished concrete floors. Looks nice, no fire issues, no chemical issues, easy to clean. They are a little slick though.
3) I have owned a race/exotic car shop for several years. In my opinion, 2 post lifts are a waste of space for anything but tire and brake jobs (unless you work on cars that require engine removal out the bottom). Get a nice 4 post and a rolling jack or even under lift jack stands. Much safer, easier to load, universal without worrying about lift points. Also a 4 post makes a nice height adjustable work surface and can be leveled well enough for setup work. I basically never use my 2 post unless I have to, the 4 post gets used every day.
4) make sure you have at least one car worth of level outside concrete in front of all doors so you can push cars in and out of move them around with minimal effort.
5) make a shed or other dry place and put your air compressor outside so you don't have to listen to it.

6)my biggest advice: don't get too specific in your planning and layout. You never know when you will buy a new machine or a different vehicle. Plan with versatility in mind.

As always ymmv
Pat