Shop-building mistakes

[billtebbutt]

All,

I am interested in understanding the mistakes we've collectively made when building a shop for our racing hobby/business. Let me save you the trouble of citing the obvious one: don't build it too small (can they ever be large enough?)!

We are beginning to plan out the next chapter in our lives, and we will end up on the NE coast of Canada with more than enough acreage (somewhere between 6-12 acres is in our snack bracket where we are looking). We will be "slightly" in the country, about 20 minutes form a thriving metropolis of some 40,000 people. As such, we will be on well-water, septic, and propane.

Here's what I am thinking about:

- 3,000 sq feet of shop space, well separated from the house
- Concrete slab
- Possibly indoor room for the trailer, but am also considering a carport off the side of the building
- Hot water on its own heater, 2 piece bath
- 220 (lathe, TIG)
- A single 2 post lift well off to the side of the shop
- What I would call a 1.5 story construction with a single plane canted roof, with a loft running down the length of the building
- Heat pump system (quite popular in the region, and this is an April-October residence for us)
- Epoxy floor coating
- LED lighting, if only for the need to almost never change a bulb/fixture
- Built-in sound system. Place needs to rock
- Am thinking seriously about a solar field install, as we have ample room for it and the region has a robust FIT program

The house will be a single-story mid-century modern design, so the shop can't really be a metal/pre-fab style: there will be a need to have it "fit in".

Yeah, there's a lot of work to do yet! I would appreciate your thoughts on what NOT to do, and of course, what should I be thinking about that I have yet to consider.

Thanks in advance,

BT

[Racerex1]

3 phase electricity for Tig welder, lathe, manual mill, surface grinder, and CNC, or one big ass phase converter. With enough electricity to run everything without making the lights going out

[David Clubine]

All,


- LED lighting, if only for the need to almost never change a bulb/fixture

BT

LED lighting is great, cheap to run, but don't be fooled into thinking you will never change a fixture. They do have a set life.

7 years and all of ours are changed. They all died within weeks of each other.

[Bob Wright]

Radiant heat in the floor is wonderful. If you're only dealing with formula cars you don't need the lift, only an A frame. I have all equipment and shelving on wheels. It makes keeping the place clean much easier. For appearance, make the building look like a horse barn with wood siding and barn windows.

[Mike B]

I know you said this is April-October but if I was building a shop I would run hot water in the concrete slab and I would use infrared heat. The warm (or not ice-cold) floor is nice if you're kneeling on it and it's a treat to pick up a tool that is warm. My forced air furnace is nice to warm up the shop quickly but it can always tell when I'm sanding or painting something.

[Joefisherff]

I went with white walls, ceiling and floor (epoxy) along with the LED's. The reflective light is great particularly as I have gotten older. Plenty of outlets. A place to wash hands/rinse parts. If you can get geo-thermal and do the radiant heat that's a plus even if you are going to be there only in the warmer months, keeping the shop above 40 degrees keeps your paints and other chemicals from freezing. I would go with the higher ceilings and put the lift inside. If you use your trailer for storage as well having it covered greatly improves it's life and appearance and if you can swing it make it so it's stored in the shop so you can get to your spares without going out into the elements and protecting it from the elements/rodents.

[JHerscher]

No feedback on what not to do but some additional ideas of what you might want to do.

If I were designing a shop I would have an area designated as "dirty" that could be temporarily partitioned off from the rest of the shop by a movable screen of some sort. That way the mess is confined to the dirty area until it can be cleaned up. I think it would be useful to have hot/cold water available in that section to aid with cleanup activities.
You could also use it in the event you wanted to paint something without having to build a booth.

Other things to consider:

A dead level surface for performing setup. Just an area - not the entire floor.

Power supply in the floor at strategic locations to avoid tripping over cords. Or drops from the ceiling - but the floor is a lot easier to reach.

Make the loft accessible with stairs vs a ladder. Easier to tote stuff.

Slop sink as well as the bath.

Skylights for free lighting.


And a seconding of the in-floor radiant heating suggestion. I bet you find yourself up there sometime when its a bit colder and you'd rather not be grubbing around on a cold concrete floor.

[John Nesbitt]

I imagine that you have considered the logistics of living on the NE coast of Canada. It's a long way from anywhere else. From Halifax or Sydney, at least a 12-hour tow to a racetrack. Not at all like hopping over to Mosport from (I am guessing) somewhere near Toronto.

[billtebbutt]

oh yeah!

bt

[EYERACE]

Skylights !! In Florida a fiberglass white garage door lets lots of light through too

Power outlets in the floor raised just above the level of the floor in various locations.

I have an industrial thick steel A frame on rollers for picking up the FC by the main hoop and putting it on a roll around at about waist high .....thank you to whoever it was I bought if from years ago on ApexSpeed......My main mistake with a 2,000 sq ft garage > is the floor was only poured 2" thick......now I can't install a two post or four post lift for the Lotus Esprit that weighs about 3,500 pounds such that I would need a 3" thick floor.

I bought a bunch of stock in my Roth IRA in International Speedway Corp years ago....and sold it at a nice profit.....and the profit money went to the heat-A/C unit in my garage. Insulate Insulate Insulate

Though water into the place to wash with is nice......outflow in one garage years ago went simply from the sink into the pipe that led to a 22 gallon drum filled with rocks with the bottom cut out buried deep in the ground........I didn't have to worry about hooking up drainage that way.

Very tall garage door...........I can back my trailer into the garage if I care to do so. Very wide garage door....no center posts

Maybe hook up a timer on your main lights on/off switch....you turm on the timer and walk away with the lights still on...they turn themselves off later.

[Pi_guy]

A shower for helpers or truly filthy jobs where you don't want to track into house.

[Mike B]

If you do an epoxy floor (and you should) do NOT go with the color flecks. A simple solid gray makes is much easier to find dropped washers or nuts.

[lowside67]

Be realistic about how much space you need and doubly so for height. In Canada it's expensive to heat/cool that shop so the volume inside should be optimized. IMO it makes a compelling case for keeping the trailer outside under a carport with a continuous roofline - it'll look nice still and keep the trailer out of the elements but is a lot of empty space to not pay to condition.

-Mark

[Robert J. Alder]

You probably don't want to go this far. But then again,who does? Crazy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya8nR42D9dw

[Robert J. Alder]

Oh, more constructively, absolutely have an area of the floor that is dead-one level for easier setups!!!
And, of course, in addition to electrical outlets have air outlets around the entire perimeter of the shop.
And an area devoted to the beer fridge and snacks. .

[10rmotor]

While three phase power is certainly nice to have you will probably find that its not available unless you're in an industrial area, which it doesn't seem like you are. Generally welders just need 220 with decent amperage. If you have an inverter machine of around 200 amp output 50 amps is likely sufficient for that machine. But if you have an older machine with a transformer and you weld thick material you'll need more, so I'd go with at least 100 amp service at minimum to the shop. If you buying a new lathe or possibly even a mill you can order them with a 220 single phase motor. But as been said earlier they could be three phase powered so you'll need either a rotary phase converter (preferable) or a solid state phase converter.

Don't forget to run hard lines for an air compressor that is either outside in a dedicated shed if its noisy or inside, with the correct power available for it.

IF you do have the trailer outside covered, make sure you can open the walk in door all the way and that that area is covered.

[Garey Guzman]

I asked this same question before moving to TN in 2006. Most of the suggestions I got are above. I could only afford a pole barn but I put a 4-gang outlet at every 4x4 post. I've had to upgrade as I could afford and after getting electricity and linkable LED lights, I got Bluetooth switches to plug in each row of lights. My Google Home unit in the house can turn the lights on and off by voice command, or I can use my phone app. I also got a Wyse video camera so I can look in my shop anytime I want, also through its phone app.

[Rick Kirchner]

Have an enclosed office for your PC, a desk or drafting board, 3d printer, etc. it keeps the dust out. Use the top of that office and bathroom to store light weight bulky items like shipping boxes and bodywork. If you have a high ceiling, you can run a course of home depot pallet racking all the way around the joint, put the workbenches and cabinets underneath, and then have storage space on the racks above. With deep racks you can even store cars up there using a forklift.

As far as the level setup surface goes, define an area that's a s big as you might ever need and have it recessed the depth of a set of scales and levelers. That way you can level the scales but never need a platform with ramps to get in the way. You fill the rest of the space in with cut lengths of wood.

I have a layout that I'll build someday

[mikey]

You didn't really say exactly what you plan to do with the shop or how you will use it so difficult to make suggestions not knowing if it will matter.

but one big lesson I learned was more doors is better (at least for me)

my first shop was 34' x 60' with a 12' x 14' door and a 10' x 10' door. Big enough for a lot of cars but with the truck and 5th wheel trailer stored inside everything else had to shuffle around every time I wanted to get something out of the only other available door.

so I decided for my new shop to have almost as many doors as parking spaces. 7 instead instead of 2. Of course this means the building isn't shaped the same but I find the only way I can enjoy all my cars is if I can just jump in and go. Not enough time to be moving things around just to go for a joy ride. New building will be L-shaped with 4 car single deep plus 40 x 40 with a big door and 2 more single doors. The 4 door part is opposite the 3 car on the house so it'll give me a nice 10-door total motor-court of sorts at the top of the driveway.

[Hawke]

On top of what has been said, I can only reinforce the statement in not getting any fleck in floor. I can never find those washers or small nuts.

In the area where you might do some welding, don't paint the floor with epoxy. All you will get is a nice floor with black burn marks. Just paint it.

I’ve found some floor level fluro lights to be great. They send light up, and illuminate the underneath of the car.

I built my brick workshop, without considering the flatness of the interior walls. The builder made brick “columns” about every 12’ on the inside. It made the internal cladding with Storwall a pain. Having Storwall cladding makes fitting and storing stuff to walls a breeze, along with being white, it reflects well.

I also included in the power supply from the house, 100 Amps power, phone line, data, alarm and two CCTV lines. There is instant hot water for washing.

A 1,000 kg, capacity overhead block and tackle on an I beam, allows an engine change and transport to the work bench a snack. The two post lift also makes servicing cars easy.

[billtebbutt]

Have an enclosed office for your PC, a desk or drafting board, 3d printer, etc. it keeps the dust out. Use the top of that office and bathroom to store light weight bulky items like shipping boxes and bodywork. If you have a high ceiling, you can run a course of home depot pallet racking all the way around the joint, put the workbenches and cabinets underneath, and then have storage space on the racks above. With deep racks you can even store cars up there using a forklift.

As far as the level setup surface goes, define an area that's a s big as you might ever need and have it recessed the depth of a set of scales and levelers. That way you can level the scales but never need a platform with ramps to get in the way. You fill the rest of the space in with cut lengths of wood.

I have a layout that I'll build someday

THAT is really nicely laid out! Thanks for this

bt

[billtebbutt]

You didn't really say exactly what you plan to do with the shop or how you will use it so difficult to make suggestions not knowing if it will matter.

but one big lesson I learned was more doors is better (at least for me)

my first shop was 34' x 60' with a 12' x 14' door and a 10' x 10' door. Big enough for a lot of cars but with the truck and 5th wheel trailer stored inside everything else had to shuffle around every time I wanted to get something out of the only other available door.

so I decided for my new shop to have almost as many doors as parking spaces. 7 instead instead of 2. Of course this means the building isn't shaped the same but I find the only way I can enjoy all my cars is if I can just jump in and go. Not enough time to be moving things around just to go for a joy ride. New building will be L-shaped with 4 car single deep plus 40 x 40 with a big door and 2 more single doors. The 4 door part is opposite the 3 car on the house so it'll give me a nice 10-door total motor-court of sorts at the top of the driveway.

Mikey, the L-shaped layout is great value-added in my thinking. And you are correct in terms of use - it is a formula car shop but needs to house the summer cars (1968 Mustang GT, 1965 Lotus Elan S2) as well as giving me room to access and work on them.

cheers,
BT

[swiftdrivr]

Lighting location is important. I hate it when the light is behind my head, so my shadow is on what I'm trying to see.

[Gary_T]

I would counter the 'no fleck in epoxy'. I added the flecks to mine inside, but have a 3' extension out in front of the doors that I didn't put the flecks in. In the winter with some snow, and frozen boots that un-flecked section is incredibly slippery - to the point of being dangerous.

In floor heat, or the radiant tube above - either keeps tools nice and warm, and heats up the floor if you're down on it.

Beam for a lift of some description. Tied across enough joists to lift a small formula car (~1000 lbs), and you don't need a gantry/a-frame.

I'd prefer air/electric/separate trouble light on reels hanging from the ceiling to plugs in the floor - I feel I'd be tripping on them/filling with debris if they were in the floor.

Bigger than you'd ever expect to use electrical panel, with the biggest service they'll put into 'residential' (a couple of assumptions there). Cheap to do at build, expensive to upgrade later.

Fun project! Good luck.

[cory mcleod]

NO SKYLIGHTS

I've been in the commercial real estate business for 30+ years, and I can attest that ALL skylights eventually leak. If you have skylights that have never leaked, it just means they haven't leaked yet.

I temporarily lost my mind and spec'd skylights for my shop. They started leaking almost immediately. I expanded the shop and had the skylights removed. Now I have leaks from time-to-time where the skylights used to be.

[Chris Livengood]

The company that is my day job does epoxy and polyurethane coatings on concrete decks, both slab on grade and elevated. As for the fleck vs no fleck, I say no fleck. Slab on grade does have moisture/vapor requirements that should be considered, sealing it off is not a good idea long term.

If you need traction, go for a silica sprinkle in the coating. If you need extreme traction, go for aluminum oxide. Keep in mind, these treatments are not knee friendly, they are in fact worse than finished concrete. However, they greatly increase the coefficient of friction, especially when wet. I have done the slippy tests myself. We do this in a lot of places requiring ADA compliance. Less is more with traction materials, if you add too much the coating will debond quickly. I've even seen coatings float and self level on traction materials. Things get bad real quick in that scenario.

It is best to let slabs sit for a few years and develop cracks before coating. Then you route the cracks, seal them, and coat over.

[Ed Womer]

Geo thermal or ground source heat pump and over insulate, it will be worth it in the long run. 220 should be fine since most new welders work on 120/220 and unless welding really thick material a lot of amperage really isn't needed. In my area the power company puts ANY auxiliary building on a commercial account so feed the garage as a sub panel from the house so don't place it to far away and going to the bathroom is closer. I heat my workshop with a wood fire place insert and as long as you have access to wood it is not a bad way to heat but my house is Geo thermal and well worth the initial cost.

Unless you are fabricating chassis put everything on wheels and even steel plate tables can be on wheels, this way you can even move it around easily. Wide open space is nice but not a requirement unless you really can afford it. A way to section of a portion for painting or fiberglass work with an exhaust fan to the outside when needed.

You can go on for ever with a nice wish list but things are expensive and if you don't need it don't waste the money.

Ed

[Charles Warner]

I agree with pretty much everything said.

Insulate the walls and ceilings as much as you can afford. I have 3600 square feet with 6" insulated walls and blown ceiling, and two garage doors (insulated). At 11 degrees F OAT, for an extended period, the shop stays at 48 degrees. And, don't forget to keep the pipes warm. I suggest the automatic pipe heaters that can be wired in during construction. If you have a well pump you need to make sure it is insulated during the winter to keep the contacts from freezing. Same solution.

As far as the bath is concerned, I wasted time, space and money by installing a shower and a toilet. House is only 50' away. A large farm-style plastic sink is enough, located close to the hot water supply.

Go to the http://garagejournal.com forum and spend lots of time getting great (and some not-so-great) ideas. Especially good for things like flooring, heat/air, tool storage, hard air lines, etc.

[Mike B]

I would counter the 'no fleck in epoxy'. I added the flecks to mine inside, but have a 3' extension out in front of the doors that I didn't put the flecks in. In the winter with some snow, and frozen boots that un-flecked section is incredibly slippery - to the point of being dangerous.

Whoever installed it neglected to add grit into the wet epoxy. That would've eliminated any slipping concerns.

edit: Chris beat me to it.

[Mark_Silverberg]

Much of the advise depends on local zoning and building requirements. If you can use post construction that will be the least expensive method - and have the greatest flexibility.

My advice is design from the ground up if in a cold climate. The heat loss from the shop building will be through the floor / slab. The walls / roof can be insulated to have minimal heat loss with basic insulation. The shop will likely have a minimal number of windows which are the prime source of heat loss in most buildings.


I had to use conventional frame construction on my building because of local ordinances. I designed the building to minimize the heat loss through the slab. This included 1) Insulated footings with 2" EPS foam, 2) Insulation under first two feet of slab around perimeter. Two courses of concrete block on top of footings which are insulated on exterior and back filled with dirt . The result is - except by the overhead door the slab temperature will stay between 50 and 55 F year around.

Heat - I use overhead halogen work lights which have a high IR component in the winter. I find that they heat the contents of the garage quite well except for the coldest of days - they are inexpensive, easy to install and maintain. You can supplement with an electric heater near you location when in the shop if needed.

Overhead door - get the tallest you can fit within the overall design - regardless of need. This is because it is relatively cheap to add additional door sections to get 10 feet or 12 feet of height - but it gets the tracks up out of the way inside the shop. It also allows you to place the windows in the highest section for security. Shop around for doors to get the highest insulation value possible. For my shop I was actually able to get commercial garage doors with a residential exterior skin to maintain a residential look. In cooler climates additional doors can be a liability because of heat loss it is a balance of how many to get vs convenience

I am not a big fan of floor paint / epoxy because of cost / damage / ability to repair. For a much lower cost the concrete floor can be treated with an densifier such as Foundation Armor L3000 Lithium Silicate. This will strengthen and reduce porosity of the slab. The slab can then be sealed or just coated with a high solids acrylic wax. It is about 15% of the cost of epoxy coating and very durable. Please note - do not use a densifier if planning to paint.

Other notes - instead of windows - for low cost and high security use pre made glass block panels. Very secure and good insulation properties.

If you do have an upper level mezzanine a crane designed for lifting loads in and out of a pickup bed is a very inexpensive way of moving items from the main level to the mezzanine. They are available from multiple sources - the manual winch works quite well.

[Purple Frog]

Lots of great suggestions above.

Lots of 5000K lighting.
Lots of insulation. Even my garage doors are insulated.
I have skylights. Work well and don't leak. But, I bought expensive ones and have a 12/12 pitch roof. YMMV
200 amp panel.
Bath tub/shower is a waste of valuable space. You'll just be storing bagged race tires in there all winter. That said, my second shop had a full bath. Mrs Frog and I ended up living in the back of that shop for 18 comfortable months.
Remember not to scale just for formula cars. One day you may want to do a brake job on your C8 Corvette.
Build exterior to match main house. Really helps with future appraisals and such.
Wish i had a separate welding/grinding room. Luckily I live in Florida so i can do a lot of that outside.
I covered the walls of my current shop with flat galvinized sheet metal. Easy to clean. Not as fragile as sheet rock. Magnets hold a lot of stuff up. Cheaper and easier to install than sheetrock. No paint needed.

Realize that within a month of moving in you will realize you didn't build it large enough.

[swiftdrivr]

I don't know your situation, but it may pay to think of re-sale. My wife added plumbing and power for a washer and dryer and kitchen sink so my shop could be made into a mother-in-law suite by new owners one day.

[Charles Warner]

Parking a trailer inside is a great idea. Make it a drive-through design with enough room to access the trailer from the rear and the sides. Ideally you can drive the truck & trailer in and keep them both inside, safe and sound.

[phantomjock]

Wish i had a separate welding/grinding room. Luckily I live in Florida so i can do a lot of that outside.

I'd add:

1. Space to fiberglass and storage for your rolls of materials and a layup panel/board.
2. Plan of doing any spray painting? That can take some space too.

And, Like the Purple Frog, I do that outside too.

Cheers - Jim

[Chris Livengood]

Just move your welding and grinding, probably your generator too, right beside Greg Rice's pit spot. He loves that stuff.

[Rick Kirchner]

If you look around, especially in the midwest, the homes built in the 30s-50s had these big concrete double sinks that were used as part of the washer system back in the day. They are near indestructible. You can put 4 cyl blocks and heads in one - try that with your home depot plastic sinks, or even a stainless steel restaurant sink. I painted mine with garage floor paint. Next time I'll use epoxy.

They are heavy - I think mine is 600 lbs. It took three of us pushing from the bottom, long boards on the stairs, and a come-along tied around a tree outside the back door to get it out of my mom's basement, and it crushed a refrigerator dolly flat on the way home.

Another thing to consider if you have space - an old washer and dryer for shop rags. Your wife will appreciate not smelling gear oil in her good ones. When not in use they are just part of the flat space. For that matter, the clean rags are stored in the dryer and the dirty ones in the washer.....

An old dishwasher is handy for cleaning parts and the various things used to hold parts during disassembly (I never throw away any old tupperware, bread pans, cookie sheets, or plastic bins - I have two whole Costco bins full of that stuff and it makes keeping parts both together and separate a breeze.

Lastly, an old oven - an electric one is probably safer. Used for curing coatings and getting stuff hot enough to press apart.

If you look up "Bardominiums" you'll find suppliers that make metal pole barns that are pretty acceptable from an aesthetic standpoint.

[Rick Iverson]

A shower for helpers or truly filthy jobs where you don't want to track into house.

beat me to it

[FVRacer21]

How about a Roomba with a magnetic pickup to find all those washers at night..????

Every shop should have a magnetic broom to save the back.

ChrisZ

[Westroc]

Compressor: Unless you want to go nuts get at least a 2cyl w/60gal. tank. I used to wait and go crazy.
When you set it place it on hockey pucks then lag it. In the dirty area if possible.
Give some consideration to using "barn pine" for your baseboard. What I did was plane down one side smooth and stain in. 20yrs. and still beautiful. Barn pine is 5/4 so it's way better.
When you mount the air line(s) on the ceiling do NOT do as I did and mount the retractable reels directly dead square over each bay. Cause when you have a car in you can't reach the damn thing!
Use only steel topped benchs even old used ones. Been to any old time tansmission shop? Yeah those.
I have a full partition wall and 2 blem patio style glass double doors for access.
Don't know who else has a pole barn but cell phone service in mine is quite a hassle
Big believer in ceiling fans and they're cheap
Insulated doors ONLY. Windows across top panel.
I bought a Smithy lathe. Some think it's a toy but boy I've done a crap load of stuff Made (maybe) right in Michigan. Picked mine up there. direct
Still use peg board BUT put one inch spacers behind so you can get the pegs in easy
Ceiling: I used those 4X4 sheets of that smooth white coated panels and 1 or 2X lumber, painted white Sort of looks like panneling. Cleans nice, which I never feel the need to do much.. Jim.

[steve zemke]

3 phase electricity for Tig welder, lathe, manual mill, surface grinder, and CNC, or one big ass phase converter. With enough electricity to run everything without making the lights going out

Just do a phase converter. 3 Phase is crazy expensive to run to your location down here in the states. There are really good digital phase converters currently available. I have a 5 horse phase converter to run a bridgeport, lathe and drill press. My welder is just a regular 220, 30 amp circuit.
I think a solar array would be great. I am thinking of adding one to my shop. My electrical contractor added one to his shop and he is going to do a cost benefit review after a year of use. I would find a great electrical contrator and have him do a cost benefit analysis for your area and application.
In floor radiant heat is great. No more laying, sitting, standing on a cold concrete floor.
I would really look hard at the heat pump plan, if you plan on heating the shop in the winter. If you are going to let it go cold in the winter, you will have to figure out how to prevent rust on all your machines and machined surfaces.
Lots of lights and high windows if you can. As we age we need more light.