Allowing Mazda motor and sequential transmission into FC

[jpietz]

I was told that there was a vote taken by the attendees at the runoffs to allow the Mazda engine and sequential transmission into FC.
I was surprised to hear that the vote was a yes! I am wondering if everyone just voted to make their cars obsolete.
I understand that getting parts etc might be easier for this set up than the aging Z tech but will the z tech be able to compete with the Mazda?

Adding the USF 2000 cars to FM (Now FX) has clearly put the FMs at the back of the pack. I have been reassured that parity can be achieved with engine maps etc. but I am wondering if Pandora will be able to close this box if needed.

I suspect SCCA would shed no tears if FC went away especially if that happened to make FE a more popular class.

As I make plans for next season I am thinking I might be holding off on any improvements. Even if the board approves this it will be a while before we know if there is parity.

I am truly confused. If anyone could enlighten me I would appreciate some insights.

[Lenny T.]

Take a look at results from the last 6yrs of FRPs F2000 class. That should answer most questions.

Lenny

[tahoe z]

Eco boost 2.0 4K and fr 2 sequential trans such I hear 8k and 8/10 wheels 14 k and modern car 270 tq252 hp but scca can’t make money off it

[jpietz]

[QUOTE=Lenny T.;630886]Take a look at results from the last 6yrs of FRPs F2000 class. That should answer most questions.

What is FRPs 2000 class? How do you get these results? Is the Mazda FC package being run some where? i know USF 2000 has had this power plant but not necessarily in the current Van Dieman FC chassis. Pardon my lack of info. I am feeling pretty uniformed.

[andyllc]

[QUOTE=jpietz;630898]

Take a look at results from the last 6yrs of FRPs F2000 class. That should answer most questions.

What is FRPs 2000 class? How do you get these results? Is the Mazda FC package being run some where? i know USF 2000 has had this power plant but not necessarily in the current Van Dieman FC chassis. Pardon my lack of info. I am feeling pretty uniformed.

The Mazda's have run mixed with the Zetec's for a number of years in their series. Here is their website https://www.racefrp.com/f2000-championship-series/home

[billtebbutt]

Complete, 100% parity between different engine makes/generations is not only totally possible, it has been perfected previously. Simply look at the FF Kent/Honda Fit parity experience, and stop worrying.

(And no, I am not against the Fit in FF. I am simply making the blatantly obvious observation from the back straight at Mosport. And at least up here in the great white North, the Super Kent has been as elusive as Bigfoot to date).

cheers,
BT

[andyllc]

Complete, 100% parity between different engine makes/generations is not only totally possible, it has been perfected previously. Simply look at the FF Kent/Honda Fit parity experience, and stop worrying.

(And no, I am not against the Fit in FF. I am simply making the blatantly obvious observation from the back straight at Mosport. And at least up here in the great white North, the Super Kent has been as elusive as Bigfoot to date).

cheers,
BT

Stop the Fit/Kent nonsense. Here is a video of a car and motor bought from Canada with a Kent running against a bunch of kids in Honda's. There have been others to be on the podium and win in FRP with Kents. The Kent can compete against Honda's. There are lots of other factors that make the newer cars faster besides the motor.

[billtebbutt]

Stop the Fit/Kent nonsense. Here is a video of a car and motor bought from Canada with a Kent running against a bunch of kids in Honda's. There have been others to be on the podium and win in FRP with Kents. The Kent can compete against Honda's. There are lots of other factors that make the newer cars faster besides the motor.

Thanks for the video. Yes, I am surprisingly well aware that there are differences between newer and older cars. And between drivers as well. And between drivers on a given day! None of which takes away from my point, actually. Which was, simply, that, based on my in-race observations over years, that it is not possible to equalize a top-flight Kent with a FIT. But I won't dismiss your view as nonsense, all the same

bt

[J Weida]

What is there, maybe 20 Mazda engine cars ever built to run in the pro series? If you were really looking to improve class numbers you would be looking to attract the 1998 to 2001 pinto engine cars.They have far greater numbers.

[Bob Wright]

There were probably more like 40 MZR's built. Some have been since converted to Zetec or even (gasp!) FFs, others are parked. I think I know where there are at least 12 of them actively racing somewhere (there were 6 at the runoffs). I'd be surprised if there are that many 98-01 VD pinto's left. Again, a lot of them (especially 01) were converted to Zetec, others to FF.

[reidhazelton]

The Fit/Kent parity issues are not really relevant here. In my experience, the issues that make it harder to get near-perfect parity for the Fit/Kent is the fuel injection and the carb. A carb and FI will make the same power at one point on a power curve. Getting the rest of the curve to match is really hard and cannot be done without making the FI map less than optimal. To get the carbureted engine to be perfect at max RPM at the end of the straight, it will be rich down low or coming out of slow corners. Unless you have a little gnome sitting underneath the engine cover jetting that carb 50 times a second, you can't have better performance than FI, all other things being equal. Second, in the draft the FI will win out again because of the automatic correction the FI is able to make. Are the Fit and Kent close? Yes. Can the Zetec/MZR be closer? Yes.

That all said, in FC you have two FI engines, with nearly the same layout. That is an easy scenario to achieve parity in. You can easily get similar if not identical curves. Someone I am sure will bring up the engines' different CGs or internal inertia. To me, that is a hair not worth splitting when most drivers are 30 lbs overweight.

Allow the USF cars. There is no reason not to. They are cheap and plentiful on the used market. A sequential in these cars is not an advantage. Block out 5th gear and let them run FC. It's still a 01+ VD chassis.

[alangbaker]

The Fit/Kent parity issues are not really relevant here. (rest of paragraph snipped)

That all said, in FC you have two FI engines, with nearly the same layout. That is an easy scenario to achieve parity in. You can easily get similar if not identical curves. Someone I am sure will bring up the engines' different CGs or internal inertia. To me, that is a hair not worth splitting when most drivers are 30 lbs overweight.

Allow the USF cars. There is no reason not to. They are cheap and plentiful on the used market. A sequential in these cars is not an advantage. Block out 5th gear and let them run FC. It's still a 01+ VD chassis.

This.

All of this.

We are having enough trouble getting grid numbers in open wheel classes.

Is it easy enough to make the two engines on a par with each other? Yes.

Is any advantage of CoM or different inertia small enough not to matter? Yeah.

Are sequentials any advantage? Nope.

Are all of our grids as large as we'd like them to be? HELL no.

Let's just go racing.

[EYERACE]

Let 'em in.......not picky......I can lose to anybody with my Pinto. Like I care anymore.
The whole thing for me is that I get to get out there.....

..........example: Sebring Turkey Trot.....and maybe I'm on track at Sebring in a '94 VD Pinto,,,,,,and all the while there are people instead at Daytona that same weekend merely looking at show cars and starring out at the track saying to themselves, "Wouldn't it be great to get out there."

Well what's cool for me is > I get to get out there.
Somebody beats me?........like I care anymore.
And what's better is I've come to appreciate that virtually all the other cars and drivers in my Class at the end of the race really don't care where I finished either......because they are also happy for me that I was out there.

If it takes Mazda to save the Class....great for all of us.
One argument in the other corner though.......after as many FC at RunOffs as was had.....it just might be a while before there's a legit argument that the Class has to be saved real soon by Mazda

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Let them in under the following conditions.

1. We don't change the rules. Changing the rules would create a mess of people chasing these 'new parts'.
2. The FRP maps are locked/certified/sealed by a builder. QS/Elite.
3. The engine/gearbox/chassis/ecu combo cannot change and is all stated on the certificate.

I don't see people swapping the Zetec for the MZR. Lots of parts to change.

Tahoe Z's idea of a 250hp EcoBoost for $4k is kinda wild....

[Rick Kirchner]

anybody have a link to the post that shows how many VD FCs were built over the years?

[S Lathrop]

Given the current FC rules as of today, if I wanted to build what I think would be a dominant FC car, I would be looking at using a newly built Pinto engine in a highly revised Citation chassis that I have been working on for several years. There have been several rules changes for the Pinto engine and newer parts that really change the horsepower numbers. The Pinto package in FC might be a bit stronger than the Kent package in a FF.

Just a thought.

The USF2000 package that runs in the FRP series is run as a spec car under the same rules as the they ran in the USF2000 series. Maybe a better thing to look at is how this car, the USF2000, matches up to the VD with a Zetec engine.

[lowside67]

Makes sense to me - I believe both FF and FC have been so worried about the appearance of newer motors being dominant that they actually have left the door open for a full budget fresh build of the old motor to actually be more powerful. But our experience with the FF was that it was such a joy to simply put fuel in the car, change the oil, and otherwise do nothing to the powerplant versus rebuilds, jetting, etc.

-Mark

[S Lathrop]

Makes sense to me - I believe both FF and FC have been so worried about the appearance of newer motors being dominant that they actually have left the door open for a full budget fresh build of the old motor to actually be more powerful. But our experience with the FF was that it was such a joy to simply put fuel in the car, change the oil, and otherwise do nothing to the powerplant versus rebuilds, jetting, etc.

-Mark

I can not argue with that feature of the newer motors. Makes racing a lot more fun with less work.

[alangbaker]

Makes sense to me - I believe both FF and FC have been so worried about the appearance of newer motors being dominant that they actually have left the door open for a full budget fresh build of the old motor to actually be more powerful. But our experience with the FF was that it was such a joy to simply put fuel in the car, change the oil, and otherwise do nothing to the powerplant versus rebuilds, jetting, etc.

-Mark

I can not argue with that feature of the newer motors. Makes racing a lot more fun with less work.

I'll add my "Amen!" to the chorus.

I just completed my one and only race weekend of the year with my RF98 Honda...

...and I didn't do ANYTHING to engine since I parked it at the end of 2020.

[S Lathrop]

Something to remember is that FC is a formula car class. When you look at the GCR, the class is about how you build a car that fits the formula. That is a car that meets the rules. The rules can be changed and there is a well established procedure for doing that. FC is not a class for spec type formula cars built to rules that would not be compatible with the GCR definition of a FC car.

The last thing the USF2000 guys want to see is a Citation with the MZR engine. The last thing the Citation guys want to see is having to change to the MZR engine to remain competitive.

[problemchild]

Rather than create reasons to oppose bringing in the USF cars let's get creative and find a way to get it done.

This has nothing to do with USF guys, or Citation guys, or MZR guys. It is all about allowing the USF cars (which happen to have MZR engines) to grow the quantity of available cars for FC, while not hurting anyone with current cars which are competitive. Let Sandy, Erik, Steve, and Logan determine a BOP that brings the MZR to 99 % of the Zetec package. Make that BOP a constant for a specific timeline (like 5 years). Then grandfather in those cars that were first raced as USF cars. Let them make any changes to the car (wings,shocks,etc) that fit within the FC rules, but keep that 99% BOP for the engine/transmission. Do not allow MZRs to be installed in non-USF cars. If someone does not like the 99% BOP then they can sell their $25K car and build up a car with a Zetec or Pinto. Or they can race in Fx. If someone builds up new cars with Zetecs or Pintos from scratch, they will spend atleast $100K more than USF cars are selling for, so any way you want to look at it, the USF cars are bargains.

At the Runoffs, the two fastest cars (by laptime) were 4-5 mph slower than some other cars by trap speed. There are many many factors which effect ultimate performance. Getting hung up on small engine performance differences is an endless endeavor practiced by people content to leave their cars parked.

I threw out the ideas above to illustrate that inclusiveness and creativity are required. Please don't consider my ideas as a finished presentation. I believe that a handful of smart FC people with a desire to make this happen, could wrestle up a finished complete proposal within an hour, and we could be moving forward for 2022. Let's get that done!

If at some time, people want to build cars with MZR engines, then that is a separate topic that can be delt with as a separate topic, and its own timeline.

[S Lathrop]

Greg,

I know just enough about the USF2000 car to know that with the MZR engine, the car is very competitive against current FCs If someone were to make a few changes that are currently no legal to do, the car would out class all other FCs. How do you control that?

FC is a formula car class, not a class for a group of spec cars like FX. The only way I see combining USF2000 and FC is for the engine packages to be equalized and people can run what ever engine they want. I don't see that getting anywhere because the MZR would have to be de-tuned and that would not fly with the USF2000 guys.

[reidhazelton]

Something to remember is that FC is a formula car class. When you look at the GCR, the class is about how you build a car that fits the formula. That is a car that meets the rules. The rules can be changed and there is a well established procedure for doing that. FC is not a class for spec type formula cars built to rules that would not be compatible with the GCR definition of a FC car.

The last thing the USF2000 guys want to see is a Citation with the MZR engine. The last thing the Citation guys want to see is having to change to the MZR engine to remain competitive.

Hey Steve - are you saying the MZR is an advantage as it is constituted now, or even with similar curves between the MZR and the Zetec the MZR is still an advantage? Years ago when this first came up in the FSRAC I spoke with Logan and he said they can map the two to be nearly identical. Is this a matter of curves, or is there more to it than that? I recall the MZR was lighter or had better CG given the alloy block, but I can't imagine that is a significant advantage.

If the USF VDs were mapped equal to a Zetec, and that engine was allowed in the FC engine table, then the rest of the car is just an 01+ VD anyway so you've eliminated the spec line issue? You'd have three engines, Pinto, Zetec, and MZR as options. Right now you could put a Zetec in a USF car, change nothing else, and be legal for FC as I understand it since sequential boxes are allowed.

Thanks in advance!

[David Ferguson]

The USF2000 MZR and Zetec are both a power advantage to the FC-spec Zetec. That's why there is a "club" map/ restrictor and a "Pro" Map / Restrictor. The MZR was never detuned to the "Club" Zetec spec.

[problemchild]

The USF2000 MZR and Zetec are both a power advantage to the FC-spec Zetec. That's why there is a "club" map/ restrictor and a "Pro" Map / Restrictor. The MZR was never detuned to the "Club" Zetec spec.

As I understand it, there are detuned MZR configurations developed by QSRE and Elite that were used in FRP. I heard both sides complaining about it, so it must be close. Certainly, both shops have the capability to create a BOP with the MZR at 99% to the Club-spec Zetec (or whatever BOP is chosen). I expect they could provide a BOP spec for us in minutes. This completely eliminates Steve's concerns. I believe a MZR car only won one year of the several years that FRP allowed the MZR to compete. IMO, the best driver/team is winning FRP championships, and not the best engine.

BOP is a fact of life in all racing today. Every OW class in Club racing is under threat and will be for the rest of its life. The benefits of adding 30 turn-key cars to our FC class today, completely overrides any fear that some individuals may lose a tenth or two of performance at some tracks on some days. If you are 5 seconds/lap off the pace, then yes, that means more cars may be ahead of you. That is not a bad thing.

I believe that we have the fastest FC car in the hemisphere. Who knows if that is true, but I am not afraid of a USF car with a 99% BOP. I do not believe the top 5-10 FC teams with serious developed race programs should be either.

Adding 30 potential turn-key FC cars today is exactly what we need to ensure the class continues for the next few years. Considering MZR or other alternate engine as a long-term replacement engine is a completely different discussion for a different day.

[kea]

The GLC series has always been a series for Ford powered FC and CFC.
The old air-cooled Super-Vees that were still legal in the class when the newer FC class was created in 1988, were never included.
We plan to keep it a Ford-power only series.

[reidhazelton]

I am not afraid of a USF car with a 99% BOP.

My point was FC doesn't even need to go the BOP spec line route. That creates a spec line car and that was Steve's valid objection.

Take a USF car and remove the MZR. What are you left with? A compliant FC car. It's a VD chassis with spec wings and a JFR. Sequentials are allowed now, and aero is open so it's a compliant car. Load a map into the MZR that is equal to the Zetec, allow that map/engine combo into the rulebook and you have a compliant car. You don't need to make a BOP spec line. You can still maintain the formula-style rule set for the chassis and three engine options; MZR, Zetec, Pinto. As to parity concerns, I'd bet there will be more issues between the Pinto and the Zetec/MZR than there will be between the MZR and the Zetec. Achieving parity between two similar fuel injected engines is easy and can be done, if it has not already.

This also solves the issue I've heard about Zetec parts starting to be harder to find. The MZR is a newer, more available engine.

[reidhazelton]

The GLC series has always been a series for Ford powered FC and CFC.
The old air-cooled Super-Vees that were still legal in the class when the newer FC class was created in 1988, were never included.
We plan to keep it a Ford-power only series.

Then just call it a Duratec. It's the same engine. MZR = Duratec. As I recall, Ford and Mazda had a partnership to share engine IP and mfg technology. Pretty sure the MZR/Duratec engines were during that time and a joint effort. Change the valve cover on an MZR and you got yourself a Ford Duratec.

[LTDMotorsports]

What is there, maybe 20 Mazda engine cars ever built to run in the pro series? If you were really looking to improve class numbers you would be looking to attract the 1998 to 2001 pinto engine cars.They have far greater numbers.

What ELSE do we need to do to attract pintos?? Is that even a serious post?

[DaveW]

Then just call it a Duratec. It's the same engine. MZR = Duratec. As I recall, Ford and Mazda had a partnership to share engine IP and mfg technology. Pretty sure the MZR/Duratec engines were during that time and a joint effort. Change the valve cover on an MZR and you got yourself a Ford Duratec.

Considering that if you want to run a Zetec FC in the GLC series, there has been, IIRC, a 50-lb weight penalty. So I doubt that Keith would look kindly on an MZR-powered car in that series, no matter what the valve cover said.

[J Weida]

The post was serious. Alot of people running pinto
cars believe they are at a disadvantage. Whether real or not this is what they believe

[S Lathrop]

If you know anyone with a Pinto engine and he would like to run, have him get in touch with Eric at Quicksilver Engines. The Pinto has the potential to be the must have engine today. I think it will be a bit stronger than a top of the line Kent engine in FF.

[DaveW]

The post was serious. A lot of people running pinto cars believe they are at a disadvantage. Whether real or not this is what they believe.

The average Pinto engine is likely at a disadvantage to a top of the line Pinto, or, of course, Zetecs. A Pinto built to maximize what the latest rules allow would likely have a power advantage over everything else including Zetecs. The downside is that a Pinto needs considerably more maintenance than a Zetec to keep that performance. And then there is getting the carb set up right for every weather condition.

[BrianT1]

The post was serious. Alot of people running pinto
cars believe they are at a disadvantage. Whether real or not this is what they believe

There are a lot of pintos out there currently, however the reality is not many if any run the majors which is what impacts the national number. That number is what makes the FC car relevant in SCCA's eyes.

On top of that the way the current rules package is worded the Pinto engine with all the mods and the weight break should have a huge advantage over the zetec.

Bottom line is we need more cars out there so if the MZR vandiemen is allowed then that's a good thing.

Brian

[BrianT1]

Not to beat a dead horse - But if you look at the FX class at the runoffs this year the top 3 positions were the MZR vandiemen. The drivers were all young kids which is exactly what we need. Bringing in new blood to a class that we know is great.

Brian

[Jonathan Lee]

[Jonathan Lee]

The Mazda is a reliable motor and would make a good fit in the FC class if it can be tuned to be on par with the zetecs.

[problemchild]

Specifying a map and restrictor size for an engine is a Balance of Performance (BOP spec) in my opinion. If you want to play semantics, and be creative, then brand it some other term, then that works for me too. We need to be inclusive, we need to be creative, and we need to do it immediately.

[2BWise]

Considering that if you want to run a Zetec FC in the GLC series, there has been, IIRC, a 50-lb weight penalty. So I doubt that Keith would look kindly on an MZR-powered car in that series, no matter what the valve cover said.

I'm sure Keith will chime in to verify but with the update to the Pinto engine rules and Zetec weights the 50 lb. addition is gone (min weight is 1210 in GLC too)

[DaveW]

I'm sure Keith will chime in to verify but with the update to the Pinto engine rules and Zetec weights the 50 lb. addition is gone (min weight is 1210 in GLC too)

That's very interesting. If that is the case I may consider running some of those events next season.