Runoffs Race

[aims20]

Congrats to both Ryan and Sven for putting on a heck of a show. Shame it ended under yellow, but rules are rules.

Great racing. Got some positive attention for the class I think.

[Tom Grossmann]

As I said over on the FB page; the race rocked regardless of how it finished.

[eboucher]

By far the most exciting race of the Runoffs this year. Very fun to watch.

[Marty Nygard]

How did the two-stroke vs 4-stroke competition go this year?
M

[clint]

How did the two-stroke vs 4-stroke competition go this year?
M

At this point it's all speculative. If you take a look at last years results, I'd say the two stroke had the advantage. That's comparing the same chassis with a four stroke to a two stroke. Same aero, same suspension just different motors. This year wasn't very good to the top two stroke as the pipe broke a few laps into the race. There's really no way for anyone to see how the race would've went due to this happening. I was surprised by the performance of the top two stroke considering the hp was down as much as it was with the broken pipe. Other than the #22, there wasn't really anyone to compare to in the race. The other guys with a two stroke wasn't up to par for the race or their motor broke in half. So , it's pretty much speculative in my opinion for this year.

[mmi16]

With 8 of the top 10 in qualifying being 4-strokes - the top two 4-strokes beating the existing qualifying record and the fastest 2-stroke being nearly 2 seconds off the quick 4-stroke, with the second fasters 2-stroke being nearly 4 seconds off the quick time.

2-strokes qualified 4th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 17th, 21st, 22nd.

Draw your own conclusions.

[clint]

With 8 of the top 10 in qualifying being 4-strokes - the top two 4-strokes beating the existing qualifying record and the fastest 2-stroke being nearly 2 seconds off the quick 4-stroke, with the second fasters 2-stroke being nearly 4 seconds off the quick time.

2-strokes qualified 4th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 17th, 21st, 22nd.

Draw your own conclusions.

Could you please supply some data to back up your claims ? What you posted is clearly your own perspective.

[cory mcleod]

F500 Brethren - We all have our opinions on this topic but it only hurts the class to fight the battle again. Let's focus on growing 4-stroke and 2-stroke participation.

Cory

[mmi16]

Could you please supply some data to back up your claims ? What you posted is clearly your own perspective.

Sorry the facts of the time sheets hurt.

The facts are in the SCCA website.

[TedV]

Congrats on the runoffs run. Great show from the clips I've seen. I still haven't been able to sit still long enough to watch more than clips. Sigh.

Reminds me I need to ask what boat anchor the 4-stroke car was dragging out of the corners and down the straights from the in car video I saw?

I'd volunteer to help with the class numbers if I got some help with a 4-stroke car. I promise I'd add some slow data points. My ITC car was always on the podium with Tom Fowler or Walt Pucket driving but with me it was decidedly upper mid pack at best. Talk about facts that hurt lol. So congrats again to all you fast drivers

[clint]

Sorry the facts of the time sheets hurt.

The facts are in the SCCA website.

Thanks Chuck for the clarification of what you look at for data purposes. I will refer to that data for this example. Since you obviously like to talk more than you like to present facts that back up your perception, I've taken some time to put some information together (Chuck Style) with hope you'll be able to comprehend it. If you don't, no worries I will find bigger crayons for further explanation. Please look at the attachments (that's the pictures you click on to view the information I put together for you).
FULL DISCLOSURE: THE TOP TWO STROKE CAR BROKE HIS PIPE AFTER SEVERAL LAPS INTO THE RACE.

1) When looking at the first attachment you'll see that the top TWO STROKE turned a higher top speed than the top four stroke cars.

2) When looking at the first attachment you'll see that the top TWO STROKE was slower in every sector than the top four stroke cars. Just FYI, this isn't supposed to be possible since the two stroke car is lighter than the four stroke car and since it's a short course the two stroke should be able to out accelerate the four stroke IF the carbs, springs, weights, helix, belt center distance, belt offset, belt durometer, pipe and gearing are setup properly.

3) When looking at the second and third attachments, you'll see the two stroke has more top speed than the four stroke car but yet the four stroke car is faster in each segment while carrying more weight.

Chuck, I understand "the FACTS of the time sheets hurt" but please try to at least LOOK at the FACTS BEFORE referring to them next time and they might not end up hurting as bad. If you would like to go over the FACTS of last years results, I would suggest talking to Steve Jondal before doing so. Even though he "doesn't agree" with the FACTS, he does understand the two stroke had the advantage at Road America.

[clint]

Congrats on the runoffs run. Great show from the clips I've seen. I still haven't been able to sit still long enough to watch more than clips. Sigh.

Reminds me I need to ask what boat anchor the 4-stroke car was dragging out of the corners and down the straights from the in car video I saw?

I'd volunteer to help with the class numbers if I got some help with a 4-stroke car. I promise I'd add some slow data points. My ITC car was always on the podium with Tom Fowler or Walt Pucket driving but with me it was decidedly upper mid pack at best. Talk about facts that hurt lol. So congrats again to all you fast drivers

If you're referring to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWXXiXyKKyc the driver is brand new to this car. I'm quite confident he'll be a lot more competitive towards the end of next year in comparison to this year though. He likely didn't know the gear to run and he also prides himself on succeeding on his own with little to no help ( very admirable btw) . The driving is close , but the car has a ways to go. With being said, look for him to be at the tip end of the field next year.

[problemchild]

By far the most exciting race of the Runoffs this year. Very fun to watch.

I think you guys should have dropped the mich after the above post.

Every class has its differences in preparation and driving performance that makes result pages as poor data study.
For example in FC, which was all Zetec (minus one) there was 8 seconds difference in qualifying between pole and last in lap time and 17 seconds in the race. In FF with mostly Honda engines, there was 6 1/2 seconds from pole to last in qualifying and 15 seconds in the race. Context is everything.

[Tom Grossmann]

I'll reiterate what I said on the FB page; this race rocked, if you were someone who's never driven one of these cars and saw that race your reaction was "man I want to race one of those"

While Sven & Ryan were in a class of there own there was great racing throughout the field.

The fact that Weida finished 5th with a broken pipe is amazing.

The top 7 cars turned were also faster than the rest of the field. 9th - 12th were also close to each other on lap time.

What's not to love about the class?

[TDI PILOT]

Congrats to both Ryan and Sven for putting on a heck of a show. Shame it ended under yellow, but rules are rules.

Great racing. Got some positive attention for the class I think.

This was great racing up front at the Runoffs this year. Great job to Ryan and Sven!

[eboucher]

Every class has its differences in preparation and driving performance that makes result pages as poor data study.

This is a really important point. I think too often in the SCCA (or NASA or whatever) people draw immediate conclusions based on equipment disparities, but we’re not talking about professional teams and professional drivers here. We’re all amateurs and there’s a huge difference in driver ability and equipment prep and setup. Just look at FE2 for proof of that. This is a spec class, and yet there was an EIGHT SECOND gap between the pole sitter and the slowest qualifier. You can’t point to equipment disparity here since everyone runs the same stuff (with the exception of the tranny with some competitors potentially running the older Elite, but that can’t account for an 8 second difference). The only variables are car setup and driver ability. In classes where the engine, chassis, or other components may differ from car to car, these factors all too frequently get overlooked as drivers look to place blame anywhere but their own driving or setup ability. Not saying that’s what’s happening in this class as I have zero knowledge regarding the two-stroke vs. four-stroke thing, but the potential is always there in the more open categories. Just look at the auto-powered vs. bike-powered guys in P1/P2. Or the Pinto vs. Zetec guys in FC. Or the Toyota vs. Mazda/other in FA. Or…name the class.

Anyway, I’ll just reiterate, it was a great race to watch. We’ve never really considered the class and are getting back into the sport in FE2 next season, but after watching the race my wife asked, “Why aren’t we running this class???? Cool cars and great racing!”. That says a lot since previously she didn’t much like the class and is a big proponent of spec classes.

[Tom Grossmann]

Your wife is a very wise woman.......................you should seriously consider this class. Perhaps you could do a rental for a race or test day.

I'm a former DSR competitor; F500 cars are fun to drive and easy to live with. As I am my own crew I need a simple and easy to maintain car.

[mmi16]

I have yet to see SCCA's follow up survey of the Runoffs!

[mmi16]

I have yet to see SCCA's follow up survey of the Runoffs!

No sooner do I pose the question than the survey shows up in my e-mail.

[SvenUSA]

With 8 of the top 10 in qualifying being 4-strokes - the top two 4-strokes beating the existing qualifying record and the fastest 2-stroke being nearly 2 seconds off the quick 4-stroke, with the second fasters 2-stroke being nearly 4 seconds off the quick time.

2-strokes qualified 4th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 17th, 21st, 22nd.

Draw your own conclusions.

I’ve raced James Weida (2-stroke) at both Road America and Gingerman as well this year and can say that top speed wise he’s got me beat, but so does just about anyone else. Without a draft we were doing about 136 mph down the straight at Indy, and dropped back to 5th at the start before heading into turn 1, including behind Weida. The conclusions we can draw are that aside from James Weida most fast drivers are in a 4-stroke, or those in 2-stroke cars may not have their equipment up to par, but to just blame it on the engine seems like a very weird conclusion. We were far from the fastest in a straight line as you could see for yourself, yet we were able to battle faster cars around us based on braking and cornering speeds, which the 2-strokes will have an advantage at due to their lower weight. I’m fairly confident Weida was the fastest man on track at last year’s runoffs as well? Long story short; we had an amazing batte up front, and I know there were several awesome battles all throughout the field between both 4-stroke and 2-stroke cars, so I’m bummed to see uninformed replies like this after we got so much positive attention for the class. I will also happily volunteer to test both a 4-stroke and 2-stroke car and provide unbiased information. Anyone that slightly knows me is aware that I have very little mechanical knowledge or interest in ever even commenting on the 4-stroke vs. 2-stroke feud, so am happy to provide data for those who are interested. If anyone is interested in seeing specific data from our car that may take away some concerns on this sore subject, happy to provide this too.

[Tom Grossmann]

I think James Wieda has proved that either layout can be competitive.

My takeaway from the race, beyond driving talent is the people running up front also put in a lot of effort to get that result.

I watched almost every RunOffs race this year and nothing came close to F500 for excitement. This is a great class........period.