Buying a 97 Van Diemen

[jphagood]

After lurking for a while, I'm planning on buying my first open-wheel car! I found this listing near me, but it only has 6 photos and a barren description. What kind of questions should I ask the seller? What kind of wear items/red flags should I look for? Are there any special documents that open-wheel requires that classes like SM and IT didn't? (I know about SCCA logbooks, but don't know if there's anything else I need to ask for from the seller).

The listing in question: https://www.racingjunk.com/formula/1...82&np_offset=5

Thanks in advance!

[EYERACE]

Do a leak down test on the engine. See the receipt for the fuel cell to know just how young/old it is. Ask to not just see the current log book but all log books.....maybe through Apex you could find past owners and talk to them. Try to talk 'em down on the price of course. I'll bet the Pinto is not a long rod engine.....if they claim it is ....ask to see the receipts for the engine build and/or dyno sheet.

[Lotus7]

While I’m really happy to see a new face in our diminishing open-wheel family, the “new guy” level of your questions raises a flag. Urge you to find someone knowledgeable nearby to go with you to inspect it, the answer to your question is very long I’m afraid. Hopefully someone reading this thread offers to help.

[billtebbutt]

I know the excitement of that first race car purchase! I'd ask a ton of questions in person:

- Is he the legal owner of the car, and legally entitled to sell it?
- Are their any liens or money owing on the car? Will he be able to provide a bill of sale stating the acceptable answers to these questions. If the answers to both of these questions are not satisfactory, well, you've saved a lot of time! He's a relatively new RJ member with no seller feedback.......

- Has he driven the car, or did he just buy it cheap and prep it? What's his personal racing/prep experience?

- Lineage, who owned it when? How much time/weekends on the motor/gearbox. Who last rebuilt each of them, and the spare Pinto? Dyno sheets? Pinto heads are notoriously fickle when it comes to prep - not everyone can do it well. Any engine builder stamps on block or head? If so, you may be able to corroborate the engine story he tells you with the actual builder

- Last time on track? Where? (you may be able to find people on this site that have knowledge of the car/owned that could be helpful to you). With a new cell, battery, and fire bottle, this sounds like it has been sitting a long time. How are the hydraulics - were they done as well?

- When was it last taken down to the frame? Any accident damage, and what were the extent of the repairs? How is the gearbox adapter (they range from virgin castings to franken-adapters, but a lot of welds might give you an idea of the car's "history")?

- Exhaust? Hy Tech stainless, someone else's stainless, or a run of the mill VD part that isn't worth much. Are the belts current?

Just a couple thoughts to get the thread started - there will be a ton of info coming your way I expect !

cheers,
BT

[jphagood]

Do a leak down test on the engine. See the receipt for the fuel cell to know just how young/old it is. Ask to not just see the current log book but all log books.....maybe through Apex you could find past owners and talk to them. Try to talk 'em down on the price of course. I'll bet the Pinto is not a long rod engine.....if they claim it is ....ask to see the receipts for the engine build and/or dyno sheet.

Agree. Assumed on principle it wasn't a long rod - they'd probably still be racing it if it was. Do VC's of this era run fuel bladders, or is the fuel cell standard? The log book idea is clever, didn't think of trying to track down past owners. Thanks!

[Westroc]

Make it real easy on yourself. Call Keith Averill in Southfield? Averil race stuff. ANY open wheel car he knows about and probably worked on AND you need to buy stuff from him anyway. These are not ebay cars for parts at all. Jim.

[cjsmith]

All good points from everyone to check. Especially having someone come along with you that knows what to look for. The 97 VD has a relatively tight drivers compartment. If you have wide hips or shoulders it may be tight for you. Hence you will want to sit in the car and see if you fit. The peddles can be moved forward or back to fit your feet, but if you can't move comfortably, you won't be happy.
Best of luck to you.

[cjahn]

After lurking for a while, I'm planning on buying my first open-wheel car! I found this listing near me, but it only has 6 photos and a barren description. What kind of questions should I ask the seller? What kind of wear items/red flags should I look for? Are there any special documents that open-wheel requires that classes like SM and IT didn't? (I know about SCCA logbooks, but don't know if there's anything else I need to ask for from the seller).

The listing in question: https://www.racingjunk.com/formula/1...82&np_offset=5

Thanks in advance!

not to distract you but a posting on Facebook today in my feed showed a 99 VD which appeared a bit cleaner than that car with the same price range and a pile of spares from memory (it was 4am). I did a search and it doesnt appear but... I was tempted but the shop is full. I have a 99 but its MC powered.

Cj

[jphagood]

While I’m really happy to see a new face in our diminishing open-wheel family, the “new guy” level of your questions raises a flag. Urge you to find someone knowledgeable nearby to go with you to inspect it, the answer to your question is very long I’m afraid. Hopefully someone reading this thread offers to help.

Completely understand. You’re right about the “new guy” thing, I’m a spring chicken in real life and to open-wheel. Just figured it’d be the most time-effective solution to ask the experts. I’ll definitely try to find someone to take along.

As for specifics, I’m mainly focused on any major red flags, as well as 97-specific wear items I should know about. I’m more than willing to read massive amounts of block text, so I appreciate any and all info.

[Pi_guy]

Hens teeth
Unicorns
Fairies --no the other type like tooth
Mermaids
Ready to race car with expired belts.....

[TimH]

Decent but not great price, so a lot of inspection is in order. Absolutely get someone with experience to help you. FWIW, FC with wings and slicks might not be the best place to start...

[jphagood]

All good points from everyone to check. Especially having someone come along with you that knows what to look for. The 97 VD has a relatively tight drivers compartment. If you have wide hips or shoulders it may be tight for you. Hence you will want to sit in the car and see if you fit. The peddles can be moved forward or back to fit your feet, but if you can't move comfortably, you won't be happy.
Best of luck to you.

Thanks! I should be ok on size (part of the reason I considered it, I’m 5’6”, 125 and was too small for my friend’s spec miatas) but I’ll definitely keep it in mind.

[jphagood]

not to distract you but a posting on Facebook today in my feed showed a 99 VD which appeared a bit cleaner than that car with the same price range and a pile of spares from memory (it was 4am). I did a search and it doesnt appear but... I was tempted but the shop is full. I have a 99 but its MC powered.

Cj

I’ll definitely take a look. Thanks!

[jphagood]

I know the excitement of that first race car purchase! I'd ask a ton of questions in person:

- Is he the legal owner of the car, and legally entitled to sell it?
- Are their any liens or money owing on the car? Will he be able to provide a bill of sale stating the acceptable answers to these questions. If the answers to both of these questions are not satisfactory, well, you've saved a lot of time! He's a relatively new RJ member with no seller feedback.......

- Has he driven the car, or did he just buy it cheap and prep it? What's his personal racing/prep experience?

- Lineage, who owned it when? How much time/weekends on the motor/gearbox. Who last rebuilt each of them, and the spare Pinto? Dyno sheets? Pinto heads are notoriously fickle when it comes to prep - not everyone can do it well. Any engine builder stamps on block or head? If so, you may be able to corroborate the engine story he tells you with the actual builder

- Last time on track? Where? (you may be able to find people on this site that have knowledge of the car/owned that could be helpful to you). With a new cell, battery, and fire bottle, this sounds like it has been sitting a long time. How are the hydraulics - were they done as well?

- When was it last taken down to the frame? Any accident damage, and what were the extent of the repairs? How is the gearbox adapter (they range from virgin castings to franken-adapters, but a lot of welds might give you an idea of the car's "history")?

- Exhaust? Hy Tech stainless, someone else's stainless, or a run of the mill VD part that isn't worth much. Are the belts current?

Just a couple thoughts to get the thread started - there will be a ton of info coming your way I expect !

cheers,
BT

You raise some good points about the seller, I was already thinking after talking to you guys that it might be smart to look around a bit longer, it's good to be skeptical about something like this. I never would have thought to consider the hydraulics, but you're definitely right on the money. Dampers that have sat too long or were improperly set up could be even more of an expense than normal. I also wouldn't have thought to consider the gearbox adaptor, from the way you describe it I can gather its importance to determining a car's upbringing. Thanks!

I'll definitely ask loads of questions (something I already have a habit of). If you come up with any other things of note, please let me know.

[jphagood]

I noticed a few of you saying that the car might not be the best option (slightly overpriced, some sketchy bits). I'm in no rush to buy anything (hopefully I can race before my comp license needs to be renewed in March), so if anyone has any suggestions on where else to find a FC for a comparable price/has seen a listing, feel free to DM me. Thank you so much for all of your help! I've got a better grasp now on the knowledge I need to work towards. I'll definitely do some more research, and hope to see some of you on the track next year.

Thanks,

JP

[marshall9]

FWIW, FC with wings and slicks might not be the best place to start...

I would second that.

[kea]

The GLC series runs this weekend at Waterford Hills (just north of Pontiac). Come talk to the FC, CFC guys (I'll be there too) and see what they have to say
And Jim, I'm in Madison Heights.
Southfield was 30 years ago.

[Westroc]

Ha! Got ya!

[Purple Frog]

I'm the positive guy on this thread.
You are the perfect size for a 97.
And the 97 is considered a good car. The best of all pre-98 cars in my opinion.
Learn how to drive it and you will spank many newer cars.
I started with "wings" and don't see that as a negative.
Every car I bought regardless of the previous owner, I now just plan to do a frame up rebuild.
That said. At first, I bought cars and raced them until they broke, then learned how to fix them.
You don't need the long rod engine to get started and learn the ropes.
Price is competitive in current market.

I say go for it.

YMMV

[jphagood]

The GLC series runs this weekend at Waterford Hills (just north of Pontiac). Come talk to the FC, CFC guys (I'll be there too) and see what they have to say
And Jim, I'm in Madison Heights.
Southfield was 30 years ago.

I'll definitely do that. I have work at Gingerman on Saturday so I won't be able to stay for the actual race, but I'll stop by for qualifying Saturday. I assume bring an open mind, notebook, pencil, and gate fee?

[jphagood]

I'm the positive guy on this thread.
You are the perfect size for a 97.
And the 97 is considered a good car. The best of all pre-98 cars in my opinion.
Learn how to drive it and you will spank many newer cars.
I started with "wings" and don't see that as a negative.
Every car I bought regardless of the previous owner, I now just plan to do a frame up rebuild.
That said. At first, I bought cars and raced them until they broke, then learned how to fix them.
You don't need the long rod engine to get started and learn the ropes.
Price is competitive in current market.

I say go for it.

YMMV

Always appreciate the positive person! It would be smart to go through a full disassembly/catalogue with a few experts, you're right. I too thought I could use my small stature to the advantage with the 97.

[kea]

I'll definitely do that. I have work at Gingerman on Saturday so I won't be able to stay for the actual race, but I'll stop by for qualifying Saturday. I assume bring an open mind, notebook, pencil, and gate fee?

We race both Sat and Sunday. If you want information, come when you can spend some time.
Gate fee is typical Waterford Hills, inexpensive (entry the same way).
As mentioned, you are the right size for a 97. A couple of GLC members own them.

[jphagood]

Thanks to everyone who answered all my questions today! I learned a bunch. Hopefully I'll get something figured out in the next month or so (have a couple leads to follow up on) and will join you guys on the track next calendar year. Figured I'd collate everything I learned today about what to look for in a 97 to see if I'm missing anything.

What to look for when buying
#0 - Prepwork. Find someone more experienced with you, convince them to come with you. Ask for photos to see if there’s any big red flags (below), and see if they are easy to chat with/willing to answer questions. Ask them how much they want for it, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. Ask for its racing history, see if they’re forthcoming with results
#1 - Paperwork. Check the logbook to see if the numbers match with the stamped numbers on the car. Check the logbook to see if the descriptions match the car. Are they the legal owner of the car?
#2 - The Seller - Ask them questions. When’s the last time they drove on the track? Where did they get the work done? If they did it themselves, how experienced are they? Look them up on ApexSpeed & SCCA forums. Be a bit of a stalker! Remember, a driver doesn’t need to be slow to be a bad driver. If they have records of blowing up their cars, consider caution.
#3 - The Car -
Frame - Check everything (again, bring someone smarter than you). Starting at the front, do 3 walk-arounds looking at the body structure, noting bumps and scratches (there should be at least a few, it’s a race car after all). Ask them to take the body panels off, note how they do it. Check the frame twice, note any welds that look newer than the others. Has there been any extra frame damage? How was it repaired? Put it up on stands and check the bellypan. Is there any rust? Note the oil, a bit is more than normal but a large amount is worrying. Take many pictures of everything to review later. Emotions in the moment (read: child-like excitement) might cloud your logic. Check the suspension links. The ‘97 had unique suspension, so you really want it to be perfect so you don’t hemorrhage more money than normal.

Brakes - LD20s are best and standard. They last 30 million years. If they are branded “Wilwood”, they’re probably the WLD20s, functionally similar but lighter. Expect to pay more because you pointed this out. Also, expect to wind-back pistons and replace pads/fluid. Pads last 2ish race weekends, rotors about 5.

Springs/Dampers - If the car has sat, it’ll need new springs & dampers. Ask Averill to help you choose a good spring rate for a good wheel rate. If you’re feeling fancy and like you’ve got extra money to burn, go with some Multimatic dampers.
Hoosier provided data:

• Pressure(psi) / spring rate(lbs) = wheel rate (lbs/in)
• 18 psi/200 lbs= 842.4 lbs/in
• 18 psi/ 300 lbs= 904.6 lbs/in
• 18 psi/ 400 lbs= 982.2 lbs/in

Engine - Check the Pinto for stamps from engine builders. It’s worth calling the engine builders (again, see the car twice before buying) to see if they can back up the seller’s claims. Expect to fully disassemble the engine or have your builder do so. Refresh once/twice a year. Long rods are great, but for starting out go with the updated cams/lighter flywheel combination. Check the exhaust headers - are they well made? Where did they come from? If homemade, seriously consider buying new ones if you don’t trust the seller’s fabrication skills. Check compression. Should be about ____. Check oil pressure. Should be ____. Check oil for water/metal. Check for strange noises, let the engine run to temp. Rev it. Does it want to do that? If not, there might be a valvetrain problem.
Transmission - There are two main kinds in use, the Mk 8/9 and the LD200. The LD200 is a bit easier to put together and uses a gasket to seal, but the gears are a little less available than the Mk 8/9s. However, the Mk 8 & 9s use some sort of goop as a sealer, expect to get messy. The performance between the two is similar. Test the transmission by shifting through each gear. It should go in pretty smoothly. The car (as far as I know) doesn’t have a clutch pedal, but still requires throttle lift. Next test: put the car in forward gear, and try to push it backwards. It shouldn’t let you. Check the exterior of the gearbox adaptor for weld issues.
Ask when the ring and pinion were replaced. If it wasn’t recently, expect to replace them and pay hand over foot for it.
Fuel - The fuel cell should be in good condition. If it hasn’t been replaced recently, it will probably need to, and will cost. Check fuel pressure. Test fuel pump. Look for fuel leaks.
Interior/Safety Equipment - Check if you fit. You very well might not. Ask for safety information. Corroborate with the labels on the equipment and the logbook, ask about discrepancies. Check the rain light. It’s often overlooked when rebuilding, so if it doesn’t work then it means someone didn’t do a perfect job rebuilding from the frame. On the other hand, if it does work then you’re probably in safe hands. Check the fire extinguisher. When running the engine, pull the master switch. Make sure it works. Get a new seat made. Get help adjusting the pedals to your feet, ask the guy selling if they can help you. They get kudos if they do.
Buying the thing - After your first inspection, go home and sit on it. Trust your gut, and the gut of the guy you brought along. If you’re feeling extra smart, make sure you have 2x what you’re paying for it in savings. Racing isn’t cheap.

Again, big thanks to everyone who's helped me so far. Your willingness to teach doesn't go unnoticed.

Hope to see you on the racetrack!