Why Are Formula Cars Losing Popularity?

[whadeduck]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but why do you think formula cars are slowly becoming extinct? At least in the Southern areas. Is it cost? Are some people less and less comfortable with the open-wheel classes? Do you think they'll ever become popular again?

[John Nesbitt]

This topic is a hardy perennial. Some might say done to death.

Briefly to answer your question, there are nearly as many answers as there are people who have parked their cars.

[wake74]

While I'm in the process of becoming a +1 to the SE formula car ranks, track days seem to be where the money is being spent by the automotive masses currently. There are so many organizations, some of which can fill up and go wait list shortly after registration opens, particularly in the beginning groups. TNIA, NASA, THSCC, BMWCCA, PCA, and then what seems like dozens of smaller groups all seem to be doing well, with the only challenge being the availability of instructors (but thats a whole 'nother topic).

[Rich_G_SC]

Hi, I think it is spotty.

DriverZ Cup (FV-based) has 16 entries for our race next month with VDCA at Roebling Road.

https://www.motorsportreg.com/index....5AB5078B1A2186

Last year at the SAARC Summer Haze event I think there were mayb 7-8 FVs.

I know there are some FVs in the Jacksonville area but not sure about farther south in Florida. If you are in FV I recommend looking into the Challenge Cup & DriverZ Cup which both are drawing good car counts. I think FRP gets pretty good participation for other formula classes as well.

Regards,
Rich

[reidhazelton]

Cost.

[Chris Livengood]

I think we are going to see a resurgence in the coming years. Formula 1 is growing in popularity and that's trickling down to IndyCar. If you go to the kart track they are blowing up with participation right now.

We just need to make sure the new talent can go racing without the SCCA ruining it.

[Pi_guy]

I think I have in the past posted many answers to this question and I think it just scratches the surface.
My thoughts are things are not like they were....

I talked to a current college goaltender and showed him the equipment I used in the 70's, he said he wouldn't play in that equipment. I had the pro equipment of the day.

Your impressions may vary.

[jchracer]

Cost.

Cost alone, No. The cars have never been cheaper (used) and the running costs have not significantly increased.

The value ($/unit of enjoyment) has fallen off significantly for all the reasons we have hashed over and over.....

[Purple Frog]

The money argument might play well here on Apexspeed, but I call it out as pure B.S.

Most the cars that show up at the popular track days are more expensive to purchase/build/maintain than formula cars.

I live in an area where hunters spend more on side-by-sides than the average cost of formula cars. I know a lot of folks that buy boats in 6 figures and pull them with 6 figure trucks and spend $300/day on fuel to go offshore to catch a rules limited number of fish.

I had a conversation last week with an ex-formula car racer. (known here by a bunch of folks). He has a door slammer now that three of his family can share at an endurance weekend. For grins, recently he entered an SCCA road race event. He said they spent about $1,000 for 40 minutes on the track driving with idiots spread out over 2 days. Teching his car (legal in 4 other associations) took 3 hours. He said he is much happier spending $10K a weekend at long enduros.

I crewed at a WRL event a few weeks back. The cars in the field were basically all top notch ex-pro equipment. Big money being spent. (You can burn a lot of fuel in 14 hours.) But, a complete hassle free environment.

Formula cars are going to need to grow bodywork to play in the future.

[Mike B]

Formula cars are going to need to grow bodywork to play in the future.

Or we need more hassle-free environments that are formula car friendly, like FRP. If it could be scaled to more markets, I'm certain they could pull all the open wheel cars out of SCCA club events.

[Robert J. Alder]

Probably hijacking this thread, but....."Where have all the Formula Cars Gone?" --- VINTAGE!

OK, I’m biased, prejudiced and clearly bragging. But open wheel cars in vintage racing seems to be very healthy. At the July 30-Sept. 1 (Oops. Meant August 1st ) race weekend of Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing, we had 150 entries in four run groups including two open wheel run groups: One with 40 FFs/CFs plus 7 larger formula cars. Yes, a grid of 47 cars. Then in the VW powered open wheel run group there were 32 FVs plus 5 FSVs for a 37 car gird.

As to bragging part, this annual charity event raised $200,000 for our charity beneficiary, the Morgan Adams Foundation.

Admittedly that charity weekend was our big event for the year, but even in our regular RMVR weekends there will be fields of 15-20 FVs and 20-25 FF/CFs.

Hmm. Are we having fun yet? Yup!

[Lotus7]

Or we need more hassle-free environments that are formula car friendly, like FRP. If it could be scaled to more markets, I'm certain they could pull all the open wheel cars out of SCCA club events.

Not sure what point you're trying to make specifically, but FRP has provided pure formula-car-only racing covering most of the USA east of the Mississippi for what, 15 years now, yet occasionally struggles to fill the grids.
Lots of us remain mystified as to why Bob isn't turning away entries at every event....

I see you are in WI, are Bob's events too far to travel to?

[problemchild]

Many factors, but there are cost factors, and the market has no leadership. SCCA blew any money they could have used to promote Formula cars on the failed F3/F4 charade. So we are left with overvalued vintage formula fords, and undervalued FFs (more than 1 decade old) and undervalued FCs (2-3 decades old). Had we sold 20-30 FFs/FCs per year for the last 25 years, then we would have a booming market place of $30K-$80K good used competitive cars with an infrastructure of support. Instead, we have sold not much more than 20-30 FF/FC total over that 25 years. So other than FE (FE2), another SCCA leadership blunder, there just is not enough good formula car racing for $30K-$80K cars with reasonable budgets, available for successful young hobbyists. Instead, that potential market is being carved up by many other providers. Successful young hobbyists will be busy making money and will need race service providers. There were 40ish Porsche's at Road America on Aug 1st, all professionally cared for, that have been purchased in the last few years. We are not competing with them for market share because we have no one leading the effort. Bob Wright and Peter West try, but are too underfunded to compete, and need professional management.

We need some person or business to take over Formula racing from SCCA and make it work by bringing sub $100K cars to market, with racing at venues across the country. Picture FRP type racing in 4 or 5 different areas of the country. By all accounts, SVRA is not the one to make that happen. I have no idea how to make that happen but that is what is needed.

The good news may be that we have bottomed out. Formula car counts are up slightly over the past few years in some areas. No one wants to hear me declare this, but if Formula cars make a resurgence, it will be with a smart promotor and electric OW cars.

[E1pix]

Cost.

If one looks at the Runoffs winners of the ‘70s, the record shows dozens of them making history in the top pro categories.

If you look at the ‘10s, it no longer does and hasn’t at that level since.

It’s always expensive to win, but where to put the stakes has changed.

SCCA in Formula cars was the new path to follow by the ‘70s, suddenly adding Indy as a valid goal beyond road racing. But beyond Neil Verhagen after 2016, and I’m probably forgetting, who else in a decade has come from SCCA open wheel and made a career of it?

So am in Reid’s camp. Money and racing are nearly always mutual.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Pure race cars require garage and workshop space. A place to store it and work on it.

Most housing today lacks space and the owners associations certainly do not want anyone working on a car.
Even in dirt cheap parts of the country they are building dense housing.

Younger people don't have the space. So they track day their road legal cars.

The only other option is to hire someone to store and run the car. Most people starting out are on their own.

So, if you have space and expertise, maybe you can mentor a young person. Store the car, allow them shop access and teach them how to run these things.

[rally460]

For noobs I think its all perception that open wheel cars are expensive. I've had many people in disbelief when I explain the acquisition and running costs on my FM. Lots of guys running prod classes and time attack at competitive levels are surprised that I spend less than them to run a full season. To be fair, I had the same perception before I jumped in.

I'm on the "younger" end of the spectrum, I've scratch-built multiple race cars for road and rally, and the FM is the most smiles per dollar I've had, and I tell everyone I can about it.

I've noticed several old FB cars being purchased and run locally for relatively small dollars. Makes me wonder if people are in it for the thrills and not the competition. Focus on the experience and less on the SCCA class nonsense? See yall at Runoffs, I'll be in ..... FX this year?... who cares really.. I'm driving an open wheel car at Indy!!

[BTennessen]

I crewed at a WRL event a few weeks back. The cars in the field were basically all top notch ex-pro equipment. Big money being spent. (You can burn a lot of fuel in 14 hours.) But, a complete hassle free environment.

It's amazing seeing what WRL has turned into over the past couple years. Our last weekend with them was in October of 2018 with our E30 vert that was basically built to spec e30. At the time we ran in GP2 and were very competitive, now the field is filled with direct from factory race cars.

One thing I've ran into is the perceived danger of formula and open wheel cars in general compared to production based cars. I've had several friends mentioned they would never get into something as dangerous as my FF. My wife has suggested selling the FF for a sports racer or caterham several times.

A few people have mentioned the requirement of a racing license as a stopping point. The 2k+ for a weekend competition school buys a lot of track time with any of the dozens of track day organizations.

In the end a lot of people are just find running track days instead of racing, to comply with the most track day organizations you run a production based car. An upside to track days a few have pointed out is the availability of relatively cheap track day insurance. Not a lot of people under say 35 years old can afford to walk away from a total write off.

[tgaluardi]

Up here in the Northeast we usually have 15 or more Vees at each event.
Last weekend 29 at NHMS.

[problemchild]

SCCA in Formula cars was the new path to follow by the ‘70s, suddenly adding Indy as a valid goal beyond road racing. But beyond Neil Verhagen after 2016, and I’m probably forgetting, who else in a decade has come from SCCA open wheel and made a career of it?

In Indycar:
Graham Rahal, Colton Herta, Pato Ward, Josef Newgarten, Derek Daly, James Hinchcliffe, Dalton Kellett, Santino Ferucci all show up in North American formula car club racing results. I am including FRP and West within the club racing umbrella. I know that Jack Harvey and Scott McLaughlin ran formula cars in club racing events in their home country. I expect 90% of the current grid has spent time in a FF or F2000 car.

Almost Indy:
Kyle Kirkwood, Oliver Askew, Ryan Norman, Robert Megennis,

In IMSA:
Andy Lally, Zach Robichon, Roman DeAngelis, Jeff Kingsley, Dane Cameron, Misha Goikhberg, Garret Grist, Scott Huffaker, Austin McCusker, Aaron Telitz, Ricky Taylor, Jordan Taylor, Trent Hindman, Scott Andrews

These drivers would be just some of many.
How about the 2021 Daytona 500 winner?

Clearly, few of these drivers are "earning a living" but they are active in Pro Racing. That includes all of the best young American Indycar drivers! I do not believe we should cater to, or structure our club racing do develop pro drivers. What we need to do is make it so attractive that they spend some time with us, to make themselves better.

I don't think that our junior OW racing has changed much as a viable development tool. What has absolutely changed is that most of our club racers, do not follow or connect with, the drivers moving through our racing. Part of that is that most club racers relate to the young drivers as "grandparents" rather than "peers". How many of you knew that all those Indycar drivers have been racing amongst us?

We have absolutely outstanding drivers moving through the FRP F1600 Series every year on their way to somewhere. These kids are unbelievable. I bring them to SCCA events when I can. Despite the common assumption, most are fine young people with good supportive families, who are working their butts off to be successful in life. Perhaps they will be our Indycar drivers in another decade.

[EYERACE]

VDCA said my '94 FC might be welcome at some of their events but not others.

[jrh3]

Probably hijacking this thread, but....."Where have all the Formula Cars Gone?" --- VINTAGE!

OK, I’m biased, prejudiced and clearly bragging. But open wheel cars in vintage racing seems to be very healthy. At the July 30-Sept. 1 race weekend of Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing, we had 150 entries in four run groups including two open wheel run groups: One with 40 FFs/CFs plus 7 larger formula cars. Yes, a grid of 47 cars. Then in the VW powered open wheel run group there were 32 FVs plus 5 FSVs for a 37 car gird.

As to bragging part, this annual charity event raised $200,000 for our charity beneficiary, the Morgan Adams Foundation.

Admittedly that charity weekend was our big event for the year, but even in our regular RMVR weekends there will be fields of 15-20 FVs and 20-25 FF/CFs.

Hmm. Are we having fun yet? Yup!

seriously fun at RMVR

[reidhazelton]

The money argument might play well here on Apexspeed, but I call it out as pure B.S.

Most the cars that show up at the popular track days are more expensive to purchase/build/maintain than formula cars.

I live in an area where hunters spend more on side-by-sides than the average cost of formula cars. I know a lot of folks that buy boats in 6 figures and pull them with 6 figure trucks and spend $300/day on fuel to go offshore to catch a rules limited number of fish.

I had a conversation last week with an ex-formula car racer. (known here by a bunch of folks). He has a door slammer now that three of his family can share at an endurance weekend. For grins, recently he entered an SCCA road race event. He said they spent about $1,000 for 40 minutes on the track driving with idiots spread out over 2 days. Teching his car (legal in 4 other associations) took 3 hours. He said he is much happier spending $10K a weekend at long enduros.

I crewed at a WRL event a few weeks back. The cars in the field were basically all top notch ex-pro equipment. Big money being spent. (You can burn a lot of fuel in 14 hours.) But, a complete hassle free environment.

Formula cars are going to need to grow bodywork to play in the future.

You are equating cost with value. Perhaps I should have said value to be more precise. However, your argument proves my point. People (very few relatively to the past) have disposable money to spend, they just are not doing it on formula cars. The person who spends significant money on "X" is not spending it on formula car racing (or any racing) because the value isn't there. Just because someone spends more on something else, does not mean racing is not prohibitively expensive. All that shows is people spend money, just not on formula cars.

That spicy Porsche or Corvette at a track day is more affordable than a formula car. It costs less $$ and time, and the Corvette can be financed. That Corvette can be used as a daily driver, doesn't need a truck/trailer to haul it. The Corvette takes far, far less maintenance and time to get on track. That formula car takes a lot of space in a garage where most younger people don't have extra space even if they have a stand alone garage.

The costs of an FF have went up, relative to median income, far more than a Spec Miata or a production street car. Those enduros like WRC can split the costs among several people. I looked at doing one with some autocross friends a few years ago. To me, the costs (including building a car) were a bargain. To my autocross friends it was insane money compared to autocross. They all have very fancy street cars and good jobs. They all have said that they would absolutely love to go wheel to wheel, then I tell them an entry fee is $600+ and a used 20 year old FF Honda costs $40k, and you need a truck and trailer. Instant nonstarter. It's too expensive and difficult to get started. The world has changed for disposable income and even paid time off. Two weeks used to be standard, and it is now a luxury. That all raises the cost to get into racing generally.

I've been saying this same stuff for the better part of a decade and so far time has proven me right. As the youngest person in FF doing it on their own dollar, I voiced these concerns. No one listened. I used to stand around with BoD members and other racers at dinner parties and this would usually come up - "where is all the new blood?" Gee, I dunno, maybe ask the one person that is 30 years younger than everyone else. I'd pipe up, say my thoughts, and be promptly dismissed. That told me right there that this whole racing thing was a dying deal.

One of the biggest clues that SCCA was tone deaf to new, younger people, was when entry fees kept going up $100 a year. Every time, "in the grand scheme of things, what is a hundred bucks?" Well, say that ten times and here is what ya get. I see the SCCA demographic has changed significantly. There are far less 20' trailers are many more semis and prep shops relative to the guys doing work themselves. Look how many Spec Miatas are professionally prepped now.

[Bob Wright]

There are many good points referenced above, and this whole discussion is something the brain trust at FRP chews on perennially.

At Road America two weeks ago, we were guests of the Porsche Sprint cup series. There were over 40 cars there, every one of them most likely more expensive that a new Swift 016 or F3, and way more than a FF or FC. They are planning to expand the series in 2022 due to demand...btw, I believe the entry fee for the race was ~$4,000. The teams mostly had newish full boat transporters, hospitality, and lots of professional crew. There was no shortage of money in that paddock. There were also a couple of FRP graduates racing...

Reid mentions value (rather than cost). I think that is a key component and difficult to quantify. I ask people all the time why they either come to a FRP race weekend, or more importantly why they don't and there is no one overriding reason other than 'life gets in the way' of racing. It doesn't seem to stop legions of SM and SFR in club races, so maybe we're all missing something.

I also thing there is a dilution factor: We are at Summit Pt. Aug 20-22. In our market on the same weekend are the following- SCCA Divisional races at Thompson, NJMP, VIR and RA with a Majors race at Gratten. I didn't even list the NASA and track day events available. In open wheel competition none of these events are thriving, including FRP; they are all eating each other into oblivion. SM and SRF are subsidizing OWR at the club level.

I don't have a solution at this point but to try to make the experience (value) a good as possible in my own corner of the sand box. With a little luck, there will be some reasonably priced OW cars coming down the pike in the next year or two.

[bananaphone]

Hey All,

This might be the best time to introduce myself. I've been looking to get into Formula Ford for a while now, and am constantly finding myself on the fence about buying a car.

The major issues I'm running into are storage and transport.

A bit of background. Early 30'd first Gen college student turned office worker (woo), at a large auto manufacturer. I do OK (enough to buy a house during covid with a 2 car garage.)

I'm incredibly fortunate to be in this position, I've been racing lemons for 6 years now. An entire weekend costs $700 and I get about 6-8 hours of race time. Thankfully my teammates can store and transport the cars, but they're also able to run on the road.

I have taken a few professional driving courses and need one more for the SCCA membership. I've done a few motorcycle track days as well.

I noted earlier that costs can add up. The biggest issue for me is that I have a car I'm working on restoring in one garage bay, while the other garage bay has my Fiancée's compact SUV. I cannot store a formula ford outside, nor do I have a vehicle I can tow it with.

As noted above, even for a beater truck and trailer, I'm looking at 25k.

Couple that with entry fees, finding a place to store the car + trailer, then getting an SCCA license to compete, I am out a good deal of money. I completely understand why someone would track a corvette they maybe have paid off a good chunk on at a track day.

Personally, from an endurance racing perspective, I'd love to be able to see arrive and drive scenarios. I know it's hard trusting a random with an open wheel, where it's exponentially more expensive to repair if you crash, plus that formula ford engine needs a rebuild every x hours etc. A grassroots, affordable approach is needed. Is it a Formula Ford / Vee car which has seen better days but still runs available at a local autocross event? Is it a more practical approach to racing (ie shared costs and longer events)? Certainly the liability of the vehicle should be carefully thought out, and proper paperwork reviewed and signed by the person arriving, but it may be the hook that people need to see it as viable.

I've been lurking for some time and been watching the classifieds. As a numbers guy, I can swing (and understand the pricing) for the 10k for a good car, but then I have storage, transport etc that will get me.

I love the idea of FF, its just not quite in the cards yet. I can't imagine how hard it is for someone who is not as stable as I am.

[Rick Kirchner]

Cost is definitely a factor - the whole enchilada of costs - to the never ending gravy train of safety equipment (and I have to ask again, when was the last time an amateur road racer was seriously injured by inadequate safety equipment?) to the ever more complex environment of the cars.

When I teched at IRP from 82-89, I don't think I EVER saw a setup platform or scales (not that you could successfully set up a platform in the muck of that paddock). Are the newer cars more sensitive requiring more attention, or has the competition gotten to the point where all those small adjustments matter ass much as the driving? Where I first saw the proliferation of platforms was in SRF.....

The only guy I remember with a hauler was Jerry Hansen - but he showed up with a GT-1, a FA, and usually another car as a backup. It seems haulers came with SR (not that there were many places to park a 50,000 lb vehicle in that muck). I still see a lot of cars come to the track on open trailers - but they tend to be sedans. Maybe since our stuff can be more fiddly we feel the need to bring more tools and such.

I still marvel at what people put up with to race in "the old days". Like standing ankle deep in piss water in that horrible bathroom at IRP and watching some dude trying to put on his suit while standing on top of a milk crate....the gravel roads and rutted muddy paddock, the mosquitos, the humidity.

I could haul the car with my truck and sleep in the trailer or truck bed (at least out west here) and the tracks now have showers and decent rest rooms. I just like to be relatively clean and comfortable. Maybe the kids see all the motorhomes and haulers and think it has to be that way.

Most of the people I knew in racing back then worked out of a one or two car garage - no fancy shops or outbuildings unless you lived way out in the boons or they hosted the hobby in their business - but there usually was room to put a small trailer on their lot and no HOAs to bitch. We had a 750 sq foot house and aa 1.5 car garage on a 1/4 acre lot in the city, so plenty of room. Heck I did most of my royal's restoration in the basement. Now you have a 2500 sq foot house and 3-car garage on a 8000 sq ft lot with a long street setback. Better hope it can all fit in the driveway.

Car cost is driven by parts count , complexity, and build volume. As soon as we moved away from suspension components, brakes, etc sourced from street cars costs rose rapidly. and as the costs went up the build volume went down, yada, yada, yada. We went from VW spindles, rotors and brakes to a PFC disk, brake, pads, $100 worth of mounting hardware and lugs, a $300 hat, and on and on and on. Arguably a 10x increase in a front corner. The most beneficial thing the modern designs did was better isolate the frame and even more expensive shocks from crash damage.

And that's a good thing, since running into each other seems to have become an acceptable part of the equation.

Tires - well you've heard my rant on tires. Hoosier is now the defacto monopoly on amateur racing tires. I'm sure people will find an example or two, but where in history does a monopoly reduce prices? Its true that tire wars are expensive - at the pointy end of the grid - but those things don't effect the center of the bell curve much.

When did practice days become common? I don't remember anyone running Fridays at IRP. With engine hours and tires a practice day can nearly double a weekend's costs.

But SR/SRF, FM, PFM, Spec Atlantic, FE - those were killers. Drove drivers to those cars, greatly reduced the builders in other areas, etc. Trading a monopoly position with volume for multiple manufacturers. In the big picture, I'm not sure that was totally successful.

I think the Pacific/FRP model is the way to go. Racing is regional, and it seems like a series of 10 events in each area (east coast/west coast/south/central) might capture the majority of participants. Seems like most people run about 5 events/yr. 10 in a wide geographic area would capture most of that. Maybe take into account the different levels of competition desired - like a some sessions catering to the regional/vintage guy and a couple for the pro-focused guys. But it would take someone dedicated in each area to pull that together and for all of them to cooperate.

Lastly, the NASCAR rules model - we've allowed the SCCA sclerotic system to create a constant technology, complexity, and cost creep. We need a dictator to keep that in line.

[reidhazelton]

Hey All,

This might be the best time to introduce myself. I've been looking to get into Formula Ford for a while now, and am constantly finding myself on the fence about buying a car.

The major issues I'm running into are storage and transport.

A bit of background. Early 30'd first Gen college student turned office worker (woo), at a large auto manufacturer. I do OK (enough to buy a house during covid with a 2 car garage.)

I'm incredibly fortunate to be in this position, I've been racing lemons for 6 years now. An entire weekend costs $700 and I get about 6-8 hours of race time. Thankfully my teammates can store and transport the cars, but they're also able to run on the road.

I have taken a few professional driving courses and need one more for the SCCA membership. I've done a few motorcycle track days as well.

I noted earlier that costs can add up. The biggest issue for me is that I have a car I'm working on restoring in one garage bay, while the other garage bay has my Fiancée's compact SUV. I cannot store a formula ford outside, nor do I have a vehicle I can tow it with.

As noted above, even for a beater truck and trailer, I'm looking at 25k.

Couple that with entry fees, finding a place to store the car + trailer, then getting an SCCA license to compete, I am out a good deal of money. I completely understand why someone would track a corvette they maybe have paid off a good chunk on at a track day.

Personally, from an endurance racing perspective, I'd love to be able to see arrive and drive scenarios. I know it's hard trusting a random with an open wheel, where it's exponentially more expensive to repair if you crash, plus that formula ford engine needs a rebuild every x hours etc. A grassroots, affordable approach is needed. Is it a Formula Ford / Vee car which has seen better days but still runs available at a local autocross event? Is it a more practical approach to racing (ie shared costs and longer events)? Certainly the liability of the vehicle should be carefully thought out, and proper paperwork reviewed and signed by the person arriving, but it may be the hook that people need to see it as viable.

I've been lurking for some time and been watching the classifieds. As a numbers guy, I can swing (and understand the pricing) for the 10k for a good car, but then I have storage, transport etc that will get me.

I love the idea of FF, its just not quite in the cards yet. I can't imagine how hard it is for someone who is not as stable as I am.

Welcome, and thank you for being a younger voice. I was much in your situation when I graduated undergrad in 2008. Everything you wrote is spot on with what most younger or wishful racers grapple with.

[BTennessen]

Hey All,
I noted earlier that costs can add up. The biggest issue for me is that I have a car I'm working on restoring in one garage bay, while the other garage bay has my Fiancée's compact SUV. I cannot store a formula ford outside, nor do I have a vehicle I can tow it with.

As noted above, even for a beater truck and trailer, I'm looking at 25k.

Agree with your points but just wanted to comment on this part. One of the reasons I went FF is the cars are light and don't need a big heavy trailer. I have a 400lb Aluma 7x10 trailer, I could tow it with my VW golf diesel. Your fiancee's compact SUV can probably tow a FF on an open trailer with all the stuff you need for a weekend.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

For younger people - the only thing I'd add is the buddy-factor.

To jump into OW, you'll likely leave your buddies behind.
Maybe they can crew for you, but when running Lemons they are 'equals'.

[TimH]

Your fiancee's compact SUV can probably tow a FF on an open trailer with all the stuff you need for a weekend.

Absolutely.

[reidhazelton]

I could haul the car with my truck and sleep in the trailer or truck bed (at least out west here) and the tracks now have showers and decent rest rooms. I just like to be relatively clean and comfortable. Maybe the kids see all the motorhomes and haulers and think it has to be that way.

All great points, Rick. I'll take this one in particular. When I was a "kid" with the 92 VD and an open trailer, I used to look at the full rigs and kind of laugh when one FF or FC rolled out of it. I always looked at it as frivolous, and it didn't make one bit of difference once you were on track. It's excess, and a bit absurd in my opinion. I'm not throwing shade at anyone who has the means, just that it is not money well spent.

I don't think that the massive haulers scare people off or make them think that is the way it has to be. I think what we see in the paddock is not a cause or symptom, but a result. Middle class income (SCCA's supposed target market) has been stagnant for almost 50 years now, while costs have skyrocketed - both for cars and living expense. I don't think those rigs are there because they are needed, but are there because the people who can afford the rigs are the ones who can afford to race. As the middle class dries up, and money is concentrated in the higher incomes, there is a far smaller pool of people able to get into SCCA. Reduce wages, increase car costs and living costs, and you are left the current SCCA demographic. Old, upper income racers.

If you want a job that pays enough to go racing, you're going to need (generally - yes there are always outliers) an undergrad degree if not a masters or advanced degree. That comes with massive student debt. Most people in my law school class will graduate with over $200k in debt, and make $60k for half a decade. In the 90s, those numbers were nearly reversed and my professors put themselves though law school by working a min wage summer job. To do that today, you would need to make $75k in 3 months.

Younger generations have costs and burdens older generations never had. Two "K" shaped economic recoveries, loan debt, housing cost increases, modern life requirements (cell phones, internet), cuts to paid time off, car cost increases, all make racing a very hard thing to get into. All your points and thoughts make this even harder.

[tige00]

For scca, cost for little track time is not good, others have way more track time, that will not end as long as scca keeps adding tin tops. And in reality, there just isn't the love for the sport like it used to be. Kids don't have the time, as they are spend it all doing nothing on their phones, he'll kids don't even want to get a driver's license anymore as they have uber and lyft, as they say a car is to expensive and you have to keep them up its to much responsibility, so to think they will race is a joke, remember if you want something get it, their are no excuses it can be done

[bananaphone]

All great points, Rick. I'll take this one in particular. When I was a "kid" with the 92 VD and an open trailer, I used to look at the full rigs and kind of laugh when one FF or FC rolled out of it. I always looked at it as frivolous, and it didn't make one bit of difference once you were on track. It's excess, and a bit absurd in my opinion. I'm not throwing shade at anyone who has the means, just that it is not money well spent.

I don't think that the massive haulers scare people off or make them think that is the way it has to be. I think what we see in the paddock is not a cause or symptom, but a result. Middle class income (SCCA's supposed target market) has been stagnant for almost 50 years now, while costs have skyrocketed - both for cars and living expense. I don't think those rigs are there because they are needed, but are there because the people who can afford the rigs are the ones who can afford to race. As the middle class dries up, and money is concentrated in the higher incomes, there is a far smaller pool of people able to get into SCCA. Reduce wages, increase car costs and living costs, and you are left the current SCCA demographic. Old, upper income racers.

If you want a job that pays enough to go racing, you're going to need (generally - yes there are always outliers) an undergrad degree if not a masters or advanced degree. That comes with massive student debt. Most people in my law school class will graduate with over $200k in debt, and make $60k for half a decade. In the 90s, those numbers were nearly reversed and my professors put themselves though law school by working a min wage summer job. To do that today, you would need to make $75k in 3 months.

Younger generations have costs and burdens older generations never had. Two "K" shaped economic recoveries, loan debt, housing cost increases, modern life requirements (cell phones, internet), cuts to paid time off, car cost increases, all make racing a very hard thing to get into. All your points and thoughts make this even harder.

I can confirm, community college to 4 years and out by 2012, MBA in 2014. Then grinding down the 80k of student loans to roughly 20k now. And I'm in the fortunate group. As the gentleman messaged above having graduated in 2008, that is the worst time, thankfully I had a few years.

And I'm hoping to keep the fiancee's SUV's mileage down a bit. It's worth more now than it was at purchase but it can tow up to 4k (I made sure we got the trailer hitch). I was having trouble calculating trailer weight plus car, so it's really really good to know I can get a light aluminum trailer and the FF can't be too much more on top of that.
Storage is the only other problem, unless someone in North Central Jersey wants to adopt a fledgling moving chicane on a race track near them.

I think one thing newer / prospective owners and ravers are very fortunate for is a site like this. The classifieds are always informative, and if not, ya'll will say so.

Many thanks ya'll.

[problemchild]

Up here in the Northeast we usually have 15 or more Vees at each event.
Last weekend 29 at NHMS.

Auto racing has always been an elitist sport. Regular folks watched, worked and dreamed about being able to compete. FV and initially FF provided an opportunity for regular folks to participate in formula car racing. FV has had it's ups and downs, but certainly the current NEFV and FVCC and DriverZ events have dropped costs to the level that regular folks can handle. FF had moved away from that by the 90s and will never return.

News flash! If you own an RV, or an enclosed race car trailer, or a $50K road vehicle, or a race car worth more than $20K ..... you are not regular folk. I appreciate that you may still identify as such, but you (and I) are at some level of privilege well beyond most Americans..

These modern FV regional series (and vintage FV) are the only place that regular folk can race competitively in formula cars. There is also a place in vintage FF racing, but the people at the front are not driving $7K cars with $2500 engines. Yes, people can argue the fine points and exceptions to my conclusions above, but that is reality ...... and we are never going back. If you cannot accept that, then play basketball, soccer, or go rock-climbing.

The answer to most of these questions is pretty simple. Formula Vee!
http://www.nefv.org/
https://challengecupseries.com/
https://driverzcup.com/

Once you steer the regular folk toward FV, then you can figure out best how to service the rest of the people with different levels of money to spend. Right now, we have lost our way in attracting the people with $30-100K per year to spend. I contend, that like most things in modern life, the marketing and leadership to target these people is lacking, much more than the actual product or service. SCCA will never provide that leadership, so in order to change, we need somebody to come along with money, passion, and vision. Until that time, it is just forum fodder!

[EricP]

I've raced since I was 18. I am 48. Started in a 1971 911, got too expensive to risk the car, so ran a GTL prepped Datsun 510 until I was incredibly hungry for a REAL race car. Hesitated for a few years because of the dreaded dangerous OPEN WHEELS.

Then I realized I knew more people maimed or dead from biking, horses, rock climbing, or production cars than open wheels. So I got one. I'm very happy I did. But I still get the "Oh, you race OPEN WHEEL cars..." from racers and non-racers, as though my hobby is the same as Russian Roulette.

I don't think that is the whole reason but I think it is a factor.

I want to blame cost but I agree with some folks above, I know people spending much more than me on production car racing.

[wake74]

In full disclosure, I'm solidly middle age, but probably a generation younger than many on this forum. I also just finished a frame-off resto on a TR6, now that is a crowd with a high average age :-)

While I would agree with some of what is being written, I have a 15 year old who just took the course portion of drivers end, but isn't chomping at the bit to get the road portion. He has a gear head dad that's always had a vehicle toy in the garage and usually one under restoration, and has no interest at all. But the assumption that there are no kids into cars, just isn't correct. There are plenty of gear heads among millennial and gen Zers, but they are spending their money on things other than what we define as wheel to wheel racing.

Do I understand, and relate to much of what they spend their automotive money on? No, but my opinion of what they do doesn't change the reality that there is lots of money being spent. Lots of examples where the average age is much younger: Hyperfest at VIR, drift events, TNIA, a ton of "meet-ups" where some of those kids spend crazy money on cars that never see any real performance driving, and a never ending string of more and more track weekend options, etc. I was at a free dyno day given by a local BMW performance shop just before COVID, and I was shocked at some of the builds that those "kids" had done. Crazy money spent on twin turbo conversions making large Hp numbers. I felt like an old fart at that dyno day.

Generalizations of those "dang kids on their phones" isn't going to help the situation.

[TimH]

The Fast & Furious series of movies is up to #9. I guarantee it's not old farts going to see them. Our local track's Drift Night is huge. What I see, though, is more focus on hardware you can obtain with just money rather than driver skill that takes a different sort of investment. Then when you have that much at risk, it's pretty scary to consider actually racing next to somebody. When I got into FF I was finally willing to race - I couldn't have afforded to bend a tintop.

[reidhazelton]

For scca, cost for little track time is not good, others have way more track time, that will not end as long as scca keeps adding tin tops. And in reality, there just isn't the love for the sport like it used to be. Kids don't have the time, as they are spend it all doing nothing on their phones, he'll kids don't even want to get a driver's license anymore as they have uber and lyft, as they say a car is to expensive and you have to keep them up its to much responsibility, so to think they will race is a joke, remember if you want something get it, their are no excuses it can be done

Im not attacking you, but this mindset is a generational difference and why I was dismissed when I spoke for my age group. It's also a large reason WRC/Champ are growing with younger racers. It's not a matter of want, or being "lazy." It's a matter of it being practically impossible for today's generations to find the level of disposable income needed for SCCA. The people able to do it was greater in number than it is today. Just because someone does not go racing, does not mean they are lazy if they don't have the money. My generation and younger have to work far harder than previous generations to obtain the same standard of living. (Tangent - my parents both worked over the summer to get through college. I wanted to do the same and show my parents I wasn't the lazy turd my generation was labeled. I worked my ass off since I was 15 - far more than is healthy for a kid. I rarely saw my friends. I had above average jobs than my peers, and worked full time. I took a year off to save money for school. I even started a restoration business and made good money for a 19 year old. Even then, I was no where close to being able to afford tuition, housing, and food. Not. Even. Close. My income, adjusted for inflation, was 5x what my parents made in their college jobs. And yet, when I couldn't pay for it, I felt like a complete loser. It wasn't until a decade later I realized that it wasn't me, the world had just changed so much that it was not possible.)

As to a driver's license - cars today are much more expensive than even when I was in high school in 2000. My first car was a 1994 Dodge Shadow four-door. 70k miles. It was like $2000. For two grand today you are going to get some rusty suicide mobile with a lot of issues. You're going to spend $7-$10k today to get the same, safe, dependable car. How is a high school junior supposed to earn $10k just to buy the car, let alone insurance and maintenance? If their parents don't help, it's not going to happen. At min. wage that high school kid is going to have to work 956 hours to get that $7,000 car. That's 24, 40 hour weeks. Do you want to work full time, for almost two summers to buy a car? If they don't buy a car it's not because they are lazy, it's because they aren't stupid and don't want to sell their happiness to work a **** job to buy a 2005 Chevy Impala so they can get to work, to work to pay for the car that they need to get to work. Those who want to buy cars are doing what past generations did to hot rod them. Today, it's a $2000 Honda Civic from the 90s for a couple grand that is a total piece. If the kid has a twin turbo BMW, that isn't money he or she earned. That's from the parents. Or, they are dealing weed.

"Kids today" are still very much into cars. I've said this over and over. What was a Ford Flathead or the SBC, is a 2JZ or B18 or G32 today. Some of the most popular video games are car-centric. Have you seen the explosion of sim racing? Why is that? It's pennies on the dollar compared to racing. How many Fast and Furious movies are there? Like 10? One of the biggest Pixar movies was called "Cars."

They (we) use Uber and Lyft not because it's fun, or driving isn't. It's because it is easier or the only thing they can afford. It's not "too much responsibility", is impractical compared to other options. Kids aren't dumb. They can spend $6 in gas, spend 10 minutes trying to find $30 parking to go downtown. Or they can take a Uber for $10. They are using shuttle apps to stretch their money, not for fun.

If SCCA wants new blood, maybe don't call the prospective racers lazy, irresponsible, or disinterested. That is exactly why they go to LeMons, WRC, Chump/ChampCar, or the other series with far younger racers. They know older generations **** all over them and they don't have to deal with it. They don't want to be talked down to. There, they are with a similar demographic. It's no surprise then, when those options are less expensive, that they are growing with a demographic half the age of the SCCA average.

Rant over.

[Rich_G_SC]

Hi Bananaphone, I'm one of those low budget FV drivers that Greg spoke of. I'm older than you (50) but my financial situation probably isn't tremendously better b/c I have 3 kids at or near college age. Here is what my experience has been over the last two years.

I used to autox an FV but sold it in 2009. In 2019 I decided to get into road racing because that's what I've always wanted to do. Never considered a closed wheel car because I love the formula car driving experience - very different than taking a daily on a track day. I was on the fence for a while then went to a DriverZ cup race with VDCA and decided to jump in.

I've kept close track of my spend and over the past two years. Going from nothing in 2019 (other than normal shade-tree mechanic tools) until today has cost $22,775. This includes purchase of a very nice regional FV (Bill Hall's old car), open trailer, tools for garage and track, 2x sets of tires (SCCA and the new DZC/CC Yokohamas), full safety kit, all expenses including travel/ lodging/ events/incidentals. Events were driver's school (SCCA), 4 race weekends (1 SCCA, 2 DZC/VDCA, 1 FRP/CCS/DZC) and two track days. Oh, and one blown engine rebuild and a new fuel cell (ouch!).

I also have a 2x car garage and tow using my wife's SUV while dealing with complaints :-)

Just trying to give a view of affordability at the much lower end of the spectrum from the big spenders. This is by no means cheap within my current financial position but has been doable and I've had a great time! While not many of my friends are interested, I feel like I've joined a whole new community of great people which has been very fulfilling as well.

[wake74]

If SCCA wants new blood, maybe don't call the prospective racers lazy, irresponsible, or disinterested. That is exactly why they go to LeMons, WRC, Chump/ChampCar, or the other series with far younger racers. They know older generations **** all over them and they don't have to deal with it. They don't want to be talked down to. There, they are with a similar demographic. It's no surprise then, when those options are less expensive, that they are growing with a demographic half the age of the SCCA average.

The forum needs a Preach Emoji, well said (and I started with an '89 VW Fox, that was $1,900)

[Bardahl77]

Perhaps with the average American body size, it's more difficult to FIT into an open wheeler these days! (Says the guy halfway through losing 50 pounds to be comfortable in a newly-purchased Formula Vee.)