Why Are Formula Cars Losing Popularity?

[Jamesbe]

Wow I guess I hit a nerve. I have done lots of testing I'm at the track at least 3 days a week.

Like i said depends on your goals.

I also get held up by similar cars going slower.

Even F1 guys get held up during practice and complain lol

Agree to disagree.

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[Bob Wright]

You don't ever want to be hit by a 3000lb sedan while in a 1200lb formula car.... even mixing similar open and closed wheel cars is iffy...

[Pi_guy]

Wow I guess I hit a nerve. I have done lots of testing I'm at the track at least 3 days a week.

Like i said depends on your goals.

I also get held up by similar cars going slower.

Even F1 guys get held up during practice and complain lol

Agree to disagree.

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NO

I find it very wrong if your willing to sacrifice safety so you get more track time.

As the tittle of the thread says why are Formula cars losing market, so going back on safety items will not help it.

Your probably like the guy I yelled at at a vintage time trial in Nassau County, he drove to the event on racing tires. Every other week we had stories of illegal racing on Long Island in Newsday. His response was too much bother to bring stuff to change tires.

[Jamesbe]

Thanks for the insults.

You sound fun.

Yelling at competitors is exactly why ppl leave the sport. I know your type, your way or the highway.

1000's and 1000's of lapping events I have not once seen 2 cars make contact.

You want to make formula cars more popular they need a place to run. If you run unsafe events that's your issue. Perhaps attitude adjustments are needed by the entrants and organizers.

Why are formula cars losing popularity? I think you just answered the question quite clearly!


Not worth my time to explain further, see you on the flip side.

[lowside67]

NO

I find it very wrong if your willing to sacrifice safety so you get more track time.

As the tittle of the thread says why are Formula cars losing market, so going back on safety items will not help it.

Your probably like the guy I yelled at at a vintage time trial in Nassau County, he drove to the event on racing tires. Every other week we had stories of illegal racing on Long Island in Newsday. His response was too much bother to bring stuff to change tires.

You're. Not your, you're. As in short for "you are."

An example would be "you're obviously the life of a party with your unwillingness to listen to others' opinions or perspectives."

-Mark

[BeerBudgetRacing]

You want to make formula cars more popular they need a place to run. If you run unsafe events that's your issue. Perhaps attitude adjustments are needed by the entrants and organizers.

I think the point of this discussion was that TDOs do not support OW because their insurance carriers do not want them mixed in and the TDO cannot sell a whole run group for OW at a profit. Track days are popular and a potential source for drivers.
It would be nice to be able to 'exhibit' open wheel cars at events like this.

I'm thankful you have not had any incidents and apparently where you run has fewer cars, actual racecars and racing drivers (midweek maybe?).

My experience just this year has been different. Open test day without run groups. One they were running some sort of Porsche Owner Club event. 2 incidents in my first session. I was patient with a car in front through a series of corners and almost got hit from behind. After that I became less patient but almost got run off the track by a driver that wouldn't hold their line. I actually think he was trying to block me.

Another open test day had some sort of owners club event. Guy stops on the outside of the entry to a turn. Literally sitting there. I slow and approach. He then does a burnout and turns directly for the apex.

Both days were Friday Open Test - but not "race cars only" - which is now on my list to avoid. The only thing accomplished for me those days were mechanical testing.

Keep safe.

[Jamesbe]

I think the point of this discussion was that TDOs do not support OW because their insurance carriers do not want them mixed in and the TDO cannot sell a whole run group for OW at a profit. Track days are popular and a potential source for drivers.
It would be nice to be able to 'exhibit' open wheel cars at events like this.

I'm thankful you have not had any incidents and apparently where you run has fewer cars, actual racecars and racing drivers (midweek maybe?).

My experience just this year has been different. Open test day without run groups. One they were running some sort of Porsche Owner Club event. 2 incidents in my first session. I was patient with a car in front through a series of corners and almost got hit from behind. After that I became less patient but almost got run off the track by a driver that wouldn't hold their line. I actually think he was trying to block me.

Another open test day had some sort of owners club event. Guy stops on the outside of the entry to a turn. Literally sitting there. I slow and approach. He then does a burnout and turns directly for the apex.

Both days were Friday Open Test - but not "race cars only" - which is now on my list to avoid. The only thing accomplished for me those days were mechanical testing.

Keep safe.

Brutal. We have very strict rules. Black flag for anything you mentioned above and you go home!

We do have less cars usually no more than 25-30on track

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[Pi_guy]

You're. Not your, you're. As in short for "you are."

An example would be "you're obviously the life of a party with your unwillingness to listen to others' opinions or perspectives."

-Mark

Safety items are not opinions.

Guess you have never been to one of my events or parties.

[alangbaker]

Safety items are not opinions.

Guess you have never been to one of my events or parties.

Dude:

When you're in a hole...

...stop digging.

I'm not sure I agree with your stance on the subject, but what I do know is that you've done nothing to sway me in your direction.

[Garey Guzman]

Safety items are not opinions.

Guess you have never been to one of my events or parties.

Dude:

When you're in a hole...

...stop digging.

I'm not sure I agree with your stance on the subject, but what I do know is that you've done nothing to sway me in your direction.

While I'm not planning to run my OW car in mixed run groups, it is really off-putting to hear a grownup talking down so fiercely to another grownup. If you (Pi_guy) have been to the days Jamesbe is referencing, sure, give your opinion. If not, just be quiet. There is no need to trash another person or scream to the heavens with how "right" you are.

[cjahn]

Or we need more hassle-free environments that are formula car friendly, like FRP. If it could be scaled to more markets, I'm certain they could pull all the open wheel cars out of SCCA club events.

If it was closer I would do more events! Great group of guys there. Just too much travel for my work schedule.

[problemchild]

A long time ago, I saw my friend running his Crossle (with an extra roll hoop) in a "novice" event with sedans. He spun in a blind corner, and a Datsun 240Z came around and parked on top of him. He was unharmed. but was pinned in his car for 20 mins while they tried to figure out how to remove the Datsun. The top front of his helmet was touching the Datsun oil pan. The driver of the Datsun went home and we never saw him or his car again. My friend was never the same in his few subsequent driving outings, and became a race car owner who let others drive his cars. So, in this best case scenario, we lost two competitors from our racing. Without that extra roll bar, my buddy would have been killed.

I am not a big safety guy for my personal racing. I could give a rat's arse about HANS devices, afterburner rain lights, fuel cells, arm restraints, new belts every 2 years, and a lot of other matters that people obsess about. Obviously, I cannot run my business that way, but my personal safety standards are lower than many. But I will not take formula cars on track with street cars! That is the safety line that I have chosen.

We all need to determine our own standards for safety. There is no right or wrong. I certainly respect someone who agrees with my standards. While I may respect those who draw that line in a different place ..... sometimes you have to question their intelligence. Unfortunately, in this crazy world, we are all dealing with that process every minute of every day.

I believe there are 3 kinds of motorsport enthusiasts in our community. Those that are "racers" and those that "like driving cars fast" and those that "like driving fast cars". All 3 are wired completely differently. Sometimes racers need to do lapping to get to a point where they can become true racers. Sometimes racers get old and change groups. Arguing which is better is like arguing whether Lite beer tastes great or is less filling. Why bother?

It is unfortunate that the "racer" part of our community has shrunk so much. That leads us back to the topic of this thread.

[John Nesbitt]

As Greg points out, we each make our own risk-vs-reward calculation. What works for one person may not work for another. Nothing wrong with either choice.

I did an all-comers test day session once. It was 'illuminating' to share the track with sedans. Having confirmed both my courage and my stupidity, I never did that again.

[toolo4sno]

I'll add my two cents on the topics at hand.

When I bought my FE and got it track ready in '18 I could only find a couple groups to run OTD at local tracks for OW. Both of these groups ran mixed open wheel and closed wheel for Group 1. Without a license this was the only way I could run the car. Even with a license running OTD at Waterford Hills, for instance, wasn't a guarantee. I think you needed 11 other cars; not an easy task. Gingerman once squashed a mixed OW/CW session OTD with a third group I have run with.

I ran with fender cars '18-20 and decided that racing with single seaters was much safer; so I got my license this year. I did run a '21 Mid Ohio OTD with fender cars and had a near miss (see below). I miss interpreted the car's body language. This was rather minor near incident, but being at bumper level makes me so nervous. The example of spinning a Formula car 180 in a blind corner is probably the worst case, but highly probable.



I think there are multiple reasons for lower grids for formula cars. These are kind of duh, but all add up to work against us.

A formula car while technically "easy" to work on still presents a high learning curve. There are no manuals for a lot of these cars. None for FE. You either learn trial and error, piggy back a professional or pay for labor. I'd prefer to be knowledgeable in my cars so I work on them mostly. Below is my cost spread sheet for my FE. 2021 is obviously an anomaly with a new fuel cell installed professionally. I bought a decent used street car this year in motorsports cost. This sport is expensive.

	2017	2018	2019	2020	2021
Vehicle Costs	$23,082	$721	$2,548	$6,378	$12,078
Event Costs	$0	$558	$2,008	$1,713	$2,846
Event/Days Run	0	1	4	6	11
Hours Run	0.00	0.73	5.26	7.90	9.74
Event $/Hour		$765	$382	$217	$292
Total $/Hour		$1,753	$866	$1,024	$1,532
Annual Total	$23,082	$1,280	$4,555	$8,090	$14,924

Here are my hours for 2021 (below, not counting winter service). I drove twice to the Iowa border from MI for the fuel cell; so travel was big. Admin hours are getting registered, teched, medical check, buying stuff, etc. Packing hours include person hours; so up to four people's hours are counted. The ratio is 28 hours of work to 1 hour of fun in case you were wondering. I have seen a 30:1 number tossed around on other threads; so I am down with that number. This is time consuming for more than just the driver. My family is sooooooooooo supporting of my hobby. Not many are.

Service Hours=91.41 hours
Admin Hours=49.95 hours
Packing/Travel Hours=135.34 hours
On Track Run Hours=9.74

Convoluted rules that are not easy to interpret do not help anyone's decision to join. To run with most OTD groups (even open wheel) there are very minimal rules or hurdles to jump. It's so easy to join and you just show up and drive after a short meeting.

I don't believe many of the younger generation folks can afford or even want to clear these hurdles whether they be financial or time consuming in nature. Sim racing exists, and while everyone on this forum knows that isn't even close to the real thing it's still very popular. I know of some Gen Zers that would rather take a sim rollercoaster than a rollercoaster for real, because it's easier.

[problemchild]

Convoluted rules to do not help anyone's decision to join.

Convoluted financial/time assessments to do not help anyone's decision to join either.

Any successful racer needs passion and denial. Not unlike the peenus vs brain battle, once the brain can take back control from the passion and denial, the ability to pursue all-consuming recreational activities is doomed. Not that the younger generations have more brain power ....... but I think their ability to find the required levels of passion and denial are compromised, certainly relative to boomers.

[toolo4sno]

Convoluted financial/time assessments to do not help anyone's decision to join either.

Any successful racer needs passion and denial. Not unlike the peenus vs brain battle, once the brain can take back control from the passion and denial, the ability to pursue all-consuming recreational activities is doomed. Not that the younger generations have more brain power ....... but I think their ability to find the required levels of passion and denial are compromised, certainly relative to boomers.

I like how you put that. It sure is a form of denial of most everything in the way of your passion.

My kids tell me they want to do what I do, but when ever the talks get real and work towards a goal is brought up then they pick up their tablets.

[Jerry Kehoe]

Having been on the track a few times in my various formula cars I agree they shouldn't be mixed with fendered cars except sports racers. The ability of a typical production type car to see a formula car especially when alongside and the danger factor of being punted by one at head level or weight difference makes it very dangerous. Even things like the different braking points, cornering speeds especially in ground effects cars change the entire perspective on the track. It is too bad but relative safety needs to be considered.

[Farrout48]

Having been on the track a few times in my various formula cars I agree they shouldn't be mixed with fendered cars except sports racers. The ability of a typical production type car to see a formula car especially when alongside and the danger factor of being punted by one at head level or weight difference makes it very dangerous. Even things like the different braking points, cornering speeds especially in ground effects cars change the entire perspective on the track. It is too bad but relative safety needs to be considered.

I agree with what you said except that I believe it also applies to sports racers. In my WF1, I can run lap times faster than the GT1/SPO type cars. I have much later braking points and significantly greater cornering ability. I do fall behind on the long straights as their top speed is greater. I only weigh in at 1050 with driver. Comparing that to a car weighing ~3 times as much and we know who comes out on the short end of a collision. In reality, my visual footprint is not much bigger than an open wheeler and certainly less than the usual tintop. The tintop sized object is what the OTD drivers are used to seeing if they even look. After many years running HPDEs and road racing, I have found that drivers who actually watch their mirrors are a bit of a rare bird. Once we get focused on a turn, we all tend to focus on that turn and forget about mirrors. In an OTD, HPDE, Time Trial, etc, drivers tend to drive the "perfect" line - in fact that is about all many know how to do. Road racers will take the perfect line when available but also know how to drive whatever part of the track is available to them. (Actually, one of the things I used to teach students at our race schools) Even when I do race test days, we are usually put on track with the SRFs. I have had more run-ins with SRFs because they are not used to watching their mirrors and being on track with faster cars like mine.

[mmi16]

Is a certain amount of mechanical knowledge is required. Not everyone has access or the funding for a prep shop. Nice to have but not totally necessary. Modern cars are just too dependable so that knowledge is being lost. I won't get into SCCA doing everything they can to kill racing,

When I got into racing (after 8 years of autocrossing) my mechanical knowledge that I had been taught by my father was - It takes 3 things to make a engine run - Fuel, Air and a properly timed spark. Righty tighty, Lefty Losey.

After that you learn by doing.

[cjahn]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but why do you think formula cars are slowly becoming extinct? At least in the Southern areas. Is it cost? Are some people less and less comfortable with the open-wheel classes? Do you think they'll ever become popular again?

I will add one more thing. It takes WORK. Time. (But I dont have kids) Dedication. Sweat. Tears, and maybe beers. And an understanding WIFE! WITHOUT compensation.

When Mc Donald's is offering a $500 signing bonus and cant find workers. There may be a bigger issue..... Unless you have a trust fund, some sort of lottery winnings, sponsors, or a sugar daddy to pay the bills.

I dont.

I am 45+/- and I feel like I am a kid compared the the demographic in our road racing community. I do it because prepping cars, and racing, is fun! Satisfaction of taking something and polishing it to the best I can and trying to play with big dogs.....Grilling at the track, hanging out with friends, maybe a beer or two. Yea racing takes work but worth it for me. Good times and even bad but still worth the adventure.

But I was blessed to be born into a racing family with a racing education and I am thankful for the experience where my father taught me to rebuild a car. Not everyone has that luck.

Cj