RE:Unidentified Indy500/F1/F2 Grandprix Race Car Circa1951

[Mystery Machine]

VIDEO
https://youtu.be/t452wxTJtS0

Can anybody identify this vehicle circa 1951, it's identity is a complete mystery at the moment.

https://www.reddit.com/r/INDYCAR/com...m_source=share

[t walgamuth]

Looks like a solid axle which makes it a bit more likely to be us built. It does have pretty impressive brakes with big scoops for cooling. That suggests road racing with long straights and sharp corners to brake down for. Looks like a four cylinder with exhaust on the outside. The bump over the intake (?) puzzles...perhaps a very big su style carb or a supercharger...? The nose looks fairly European. If it were a Ferrari or other company I suspect it would have a nose badge proclaiming its origin. So perhaps a small volume builder in Europe or the us.

[Mystery Machine]

The engine or motor depending which side of the pond you're on was changed at some point in the 1970's. For what is believed to be either a Ford Slant 6 or a derivative of a Ford 6 cylinder 170/200 or 300 still no definitive on this, I've attached a link for you to check out:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ford/commen...m_source=share

It's thought that the bonnet and dials where modified at this point.

I should add it has been suggested that the car has been modified for hill climbing events such as Pikes Peak and Goodwood Festival of Speed but as yet no evidence of entry has been uncovered..

[t walgamuth]

It looks like a nice clean installation done in the sixties? The thinking is that there was some other engine in there before. So the original engine looks to have been a straight six or possibly a small straight 8 (less likely).

[Mystery Machine]

1970's I've been told but again everything about this car is a Mystery at the moment

[john f]

Front end looks like 35-40 ford. Wishbones are split Ford, Looks like Ford backing plates, steering arms look like early Ford also.
Motor looks to be the 240/300 cu in six found in cars and trucks.

john f

[Rick Kirchner]

Just realized you are not in the US. My first thought would be to contact the historian at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Don Davidson used to be the guy, but I think he retired.

It has a lot of features that I've seen on cars in the Museum there.

If I had to guess it's a 40's car. Swoopier than most of the cars through the late 30s, and of course there were no races between 41 and 46. The last races of the 40s still used the pre-war cars.

Hard to say if the chassis has offset. Oval cars usually had offset, but not all. Don't know if they were doing that in the 40s or not.

[jrh3]

The engine or motor depending which side of the pond you're on was changed at some point in the 1970's. For what is believed to be either a Ford Slant 6 or a derivative of a Ford 6 cylinder 170/200 or 300 still no definitive on this, I've attached a link for you to check out:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Ford/commen...m_source=share

It's thought that the bonnet and dials where modified at this point.

I should add it has been suggested that the car has been modified for hill climbing events such as Pikes Peak and Goodwood Festival of Speed but as yet no evidence of entry has been uncovered..

The slant six was a Chrysler product engine.
The small Ford six had an integral intake manifold.
Likely the car was an early sprint car, re engined with a later model Ford six.
Appears to have US production car frame rails. Ross steering box.
You might try Indiana Opem Wheel.com
Front end sure looks early Ford as does the rear spring setup.
It would be interesting to see the rear end, differential.

[Mystery Machine]

I have contacted:

Henry Ford Museum US
Indianapolis 500 Museum US
Beulieu Nation Motor Museum UK
The Revs Institute US
Research Centre at Watkins Glen US
Ferrari Museum Moderna ITL

All of which have responded and are looking through archives, I hope to have some information soon.

[J Leonard]

google 1932 Alpha

[Mystery Machine]

Thank you Jonh F

[Mystery Machine]

Hi just did, can you post a link to the car you are looking at please?

[Mystery Machine]

The slant six was a Chrysler product engine.
The small Ford six had an integral intake manifold.
Likely the car was an early sprint car, re engined with a later model Ford six.
Appears to have US production car frame rails. Ross steering box.
You might try Indiana Opem Wheel.com

Ford made a Slant 6 for the Australian market only Ford 250 2V

https://images.app.goo.gl/qgusUo3LcCawg24z6

https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11808

Thanks for the Opem link

[J Leonard]

1951 Alpha, I think there was a 1932 8C that had a very similar grill

[J Leonard]

ERA maybe, Martin Squire art work.

[Mystery Machine]

It could of course be one of the lost Alfita 158 prototypes or the Veritas Meteor prototype, but I very much doubt it. I think we are looking at a small independent racing team that DNQ or a test car, prototype or an abandoned project that eventually got finished in fashion... one thing is for sure someone somewhere built this car, entered and raced this car, and that is the history and provenance I'm trying to uncover. It is hard to believe such a beautiful machine's life has been lost to the sands of time.

[Adriancnh]

I'd really like to see it cleaned up. Looks like its in nice shape

[t walgamuth]

The wheels and brakes look European to me. Alfa inspired more likely I think. I believe a sprint car or Indy car would have a steering box above the drivers thighs and a large bell crank outside the body.

Also could be a Maserati.

[Mystery Machine]

The wheels and brakes look European to me. Alfa inspired more likely I think. I believe a sprint car or Indy car would have a steering box above the drivers thighs and a large bell crank outside the body.

Also could be a Maserati.

Maserati isn't a bad call, and the curved exhaust is very very Italian, the closest I've come to the front grill is a Stanguellini Barchetta Biposto 1100 year 1957

[tlracer]

Post-WWII there were many small manufacturers building small, front-engined race cars. Some, like Cooper, Lotus, etc. went on to greater things but others disappeared. An example of the latter is Cisitalia, who made race cars and road cars too. One of their last monoposti was the D48:

http://lopresto.it/en/?view=article&...48-en&catid=18

Compare also with the Cooper T23:

https://live.staticflickr.com/475/20...30314895_b.jpg

Indeed, there were so many garages, they came to be referred-to as 'etceterini' to save trying to list them all!

[DanW]

Have you checked with Old Racing Cars?

https://www.oldracingcars.com/

[Mystery Machine]

Post-WWII there were many small manufacturers building small, front-engined race cars. Some, like Cooper, Lotus, etc. went on to greater things but others disappeared. An example of the latter is Cisitalia, who made race cars and road cars too. One of their last monoposti was the D48:

http://lopresto.it/en/?view=article&...48-en&catid=18

Compare also with the Cooper T23:

https://live.staticflickr.com/475/20...30314895_b.jpg

Indeed, there were so many garages, they came to be referred-to as 'etceterini' to save trying to list them all!

Wow, just wow. That goes to show what is out there to be found..
I've been trawling the archives for days and I've come no where close to this!

Cicitalia D48 Mmmm what a beautiful car.

I would like to thank everybody who has had input into this thread, but if it's got a badge on it that is still around today I think you can already rule it out. However I could well be wrong.

Many thanks tlracer

[Mystery Machine]

Have you checked with Old Racing Cars?

https://www.oldracingcars.com/

No I haven't but I'm just about to, thank you for the link.

P.S. how apt is that quote

[tlracer]

Wow, just wow. That goes to show what is out there to be found..
I've been trawling the archives for days and I've come no where close to this!

Cicitalia D48 Mmmm what a beautiful car.

I would like to thank everybody who has had input into this thread, but if it's got a badge on it that is still around today I think you can already rule it out. However I could well be wrong.

Many thanks tlracer

Happy to help!

If you haven't already, try posting the pictures on Autosport's forum...there are guys on there who have forgotten more than I'll ever know ????

Link: https://forums.autosport.com/

[bob darcey]

This 159 is very close: https://www.supercars.net/blog/1951-...o-159-alfetta/

Could be a 158 or copy thereof.

[Mystery Machine]

This 159 is very close: https://www.supercars.net/blog/1951-...o-159-alfetta/

Could be a 158 or copy thereof.

Oh how I would dearly love it to be an Alfa! I just can't see it though. Thank you for your suggestion, all input is very much appreciated.

[E1pix]

Happy to help!

If you haven't already, try posting the pictures on Autosport's forum...there are guys on there who have forgotten more than I'll ever know ????

Link: https://forums.autosport.com/

The irony, that parallel universe is pondering the same car:
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/218672-id-parade/

[t walgamuth]

the 1938 Maserati 8CTF was the Maserati that Wilber Shaw drove to two Indy victories and nearly a third. There are a number of things about it that suggest it is the mystery car and several that suggest not. It seems possible that it was built up and heavily modified from a similar Mazer using what parts might be available....south America? Down Under?

Seems like they only built two or three of the 8CTF.

[Rick Kirchner]

the 1938 Maserati 8CTF was the Maserati that Wilber Shaw drove to two Indy victories and nearly a third. There are a number of things about it that suggest it is the mystery car and several that suggest not. It seems possible that it was built up and heavily modified from a similar Mazer using what parts might be available.

That was my first thought, that it was related to the Indy Maserati. Wheelbase looks short though, almost like a sprinter instead of a big car, and there's no offset. If it was a dirt car it might not have offset, but that was why I was wondering about when that feature appeared. It would be so nice to just pop into the IMS museum and have a look at the real things!

[John Nesbitt]

A 6-cylinder engine with a single downdraft carburetor. Unlikely to have been a Grand Prix car, at least in its current configuration.

[t walgamuth]

A 6-cylinder engine with a single downdraft carburetor. Unlikely to have been a Grand Prix car, at least in its current configuration.

True. If it is the 8CTF it has been shortened....it also looks like it may have been or had started out as a six cylinder engine.

[Mystery Machine]

The irony, that parallel universe is pondering the same car:
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/218672-id-parade/

I did open an account there but as a new user I wasn't able to post there, glad to see someone has. Perhaps we'll get an answer, fingers crossed.

[Mystery Machine]

I've just found this one online, the most interesting thing is it has open a new lead... the 'Fat Man' time to follow the rabbit!

https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...at-man-56-rand

[E1pix]

I did open an account there but as a new user I wasn't able to post there, glad to see someone has. Perhaps we'll get an answer, fingers crossed.

Unless something’s changed, you only can’t post on Paddock Club until asking “in” after 30 total forum posts.

You might send a PM to The Nostalgia Forum moderator Tim Murray (and say Hello for us). He’ll help you post there if there’s a glitch.

Good Luck in your search!

[Mystery Machine]

Big thank you to E1 pix!

[bob darcey]

Similar:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BynNGQhC...FBQUFBR0Vudmw4

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/455356212323868904/ (Talbot-Lago T26C 1948)

[chrisw52]

looking at the video, the gauges are labeled in Spanish. Maybe an Argentinian car?

the front end of that car looks like an old late 40's -500's era German F2 car, and also close to a BMW F2 car from the same era. Could be a clone of some sort.