New to me RF94

[problemchild]

I am pretty surprised by the amount of people advocating for a cursory glance and then "fix things as they break."

I have seen a few racecars in my time now and while the term "race ready" is used a lot, I have yet to see one that was to me was race ready. Admittedly I am the far side of OCD, but a poorly maintained formula car has the possibility of both being frustrating and slow, but more importantly, can be very unsafe.

At BARE minimum - you need to put a wrench on every single suspension nut/bolt, everything brakes, everything driveline, and every fluid and area that holds fluid needs to be drained, inspected, and refilled (oil/water/brake fluid/clutch fluid/etc). That's not to say you need to pull the bonded belly pan off or start polishing things, but I really think you need to loosen all the bolts, verify the locking action on the nut is good, and retorque and paint pen everything.

-Mark

I have missed people advocating going racing after a cursory glance. I certainly would not. I would expect that anyone buying a used race car would spend 50-100 hours on it before taking it to the track (if there was little wrong).

My point is that frame-up rebuilds are appropriate when pulling a car out of a barn after 40 years, but I don't see them as viable in these times. I have not done a "frame-up" on any of the 4 cars that I run regularly ..... ever. Last year we finished 100% of our races (about 90) without a mechanical DNF. We had 3 test/practice sessions we DNFed.

Some shops like selling "frame-ups" and some racers like doing "frame-ups", but it is absolutely not a requirement for success. In our world today, time is our most valuable commodity. As a business man, I cannot afford to do unnecessary work or replace parts that don't need replacing. I would prefer my customers spend their resources going racing, and not on shop labor. As a racer, I wanted to spend my resources on the racing.

Our biggest problem as a recreational activity, is that most people today are too busy with life, to spend the 100s of hours in our garages like we did in the 60s,70s, and 80s. If they are going to race, they need to pay someone to put in that time, or find a way to reduce the time required so they can fit it into their lives. This happens by learning from others, and working smart. Learn what needs regular attention, and regular replacement, and prioritize the work that you have time to do. That is certainly how I run my business, and how most successful racers do it.

I am sorry, but it makes me sad, when I read on our forum that someone had a rough weekend at the track, so they are going to park their car and do a complete frame-up rebuild before they race again. Many of those never make it back. Most of our cars are pretty basic, and a couple days of hard and smart work, will fix almost any major problem.

As I pointed out above, going to the race track regularly is the best way to find the motivation to arrange your life so you can spend time in the shop.

[DaveW]

...Our biggest problem as a recreational activity, is that most people today are too busy with life, to spend the 100s of hours in our garages like we did in the 60s,70s, and 80s. If they are going to race, they need to pay someone to put in that time, or find a way to reduce the time required so they can fit it into their lives. This happens by learning from others, and working smart. Learn what needs regular attention, and regular replacement, and prioritize the work that you have time to do. That is certainly how I run my business, and how most successful racers do it.

I am sorry, but it makes me sad, when I read on our forum that someone had a rough weekend at the track, so they are going to park their car and do a complete frame-up rebuild before they race again. Many of those never make it back. Most of our cars are pretty basic, and a couple days of hard and smart work, will fix almost any major problem.

As I pointed out above, going to the race track regularly is the best way to find the motivation to arrange your life so you can spend time in the shop.

Working smart, IMO, is the key to doing almost anything efficiently and well. In my case, I absolutely detest doing anything twice that should have been done right the 1st time. So I spend the required time to plan my approach to any non-trivial issue that I'm attempting to fix. Although this may feel like time wasted, in the long run, doing things this way is a huge time and $ saver.

The only exceptions are emergency repairs at the track, and even then, I "measure twice, cut once."

[Rick Kirchner]

Points well taken, but you're talking generalities. Lets talk specifics and go back to his second post (which I missed in all this). The carb was refreshed, fuel put in, and it was started. Fuel cell has deteriorated based on black mush. Also a fuel smell.

So I'll go back to my first experiences with my 94. Bought it in 2002. It had only been sitting for about a year.

Decided to just go racing with it. Put some gas in, took it out to an abandoned airfield and ran it about. Everything was pretty much okay. Loading the car back in, fuel was steadily dripping out of the bottom. pulled the seat out - puddles of fuel on the floor underneath. This was the original beige ATL cell, only 8 years old, and as I found out a few days later, full of holes.

To get a fuel cell out of a 94 you have to get the side panels out of the way. At a minimum, this means removing the sidepods and radiators. With enough fasteners removed you might be able to wrestle the panels out enough to get a 90 degree short drill kit in to drill out the rivits holding the cell cover on. But there are about six that are put in from the engine side of the firewall. Even with a 90 deg short drill, good luck with that. There is a distinct probability that you can't get enough access and the side panels have to come off. That means removing the front suspension and the nose box.

Before you screw up something else trying to drill those firewall rivits out, better to just split the car and pull the motor for access. And if you haven't done that before, best to have someone knowledgable assist before screwing up the input shaft, the inserts in the frame, or the threads in the bell. Its really not that hard to do - if you've done it a couple of times before and the car has no quirks. Lets not forget the funky front engine mount...

This is the time to replace all those fuel cell container rivits with nutserts for 10-32s so you don't have to go through this nutroll again (because you will) - as well as rivit the container on the inside at the bottom so that the little stones that bounce off of you during the race don't drop into the container and wear holes in the cell......cause that's how it starts.

And I guarantee you that once the sidepods are off and the car is split other issues will be found. The good news is that it will be easier to address the hydraulic issues he brought up.

This is also the time to take a look at a couple of other major items. Assess fit issues before putting everything back together and finding them at the track. This will be a concern regardless if it's the 94 he has now or the 95 he intends to buy. Much easier to make a seat with all the claptrap off. On a 90-96 VD, gauge visibility for taller drivers can be an issue as they are mounted behind the main hoop. But the big thing is comfort with the H&N device of your choice. I drove my car for several years just fine as it was made until I got fitted for a HANS. Luckily, it was a couple of years before I needed it and it was done by the HANS people, so they told me what needed to be done. For me at least, the OEM belt attachments were too low and too far outside to work well with the HANS. The belts crushed the device into my collarbones and it was extremely uncomfortable. I had to have new attachments brazed in.

Now if the cell was good, no need for any of this.

[Octonion]

Points well taken, but you're talking generalities. Lets talk specifics and go back to his second post (which I missed in all this). The carb was refreshed, fuel put in, and it was started. Fuel cell has deteriorated based on black mush. Also a fuel smell.

So I'll go back to my first experiences with my 94. Bought it in 2002. It had only been sitting for about a year.

Decided to just go racing with it. Put some gas in, took it out to an abandoned airfield and ran it about. Everything was pretty much okay. Loading the car back in, fuel was steadily dripping out of the bottom. pulled the seat out - puddles of fuel on the floor underneath. This was the original beige ATL cell, only 8 years old, and as I found out a few days later, full of holes.

To get a fuel cell out of a 94 you have to get the side panels out of the way. At a minimum, this means removing the sidepods and radiators. With enough fasteners removed you might be able to wrestle the panels out enough to get a 90 degree short drill kit in to drill out the rivits holding the cell cover on. But there are about six that are put in from the engine side of the firewall. Even with a 90 deg short drill, good luck with that. There is a distinct probability that you can't get enough access and the side panels have to come off. That means removing the front suspension and the nose box.

Before you screw up something else trying to drill those firewall rivits out, better to just split the car and pull the motor for access. And if you haven't done that before, best to have someone knowledgable assist before screwing up the input shaft, the inserts in the frame, or the threads in the bell. Its really not that hard to do - if you've done it a couple of times before and the car has no quirks. Lets not forget the funky front engine mount...

This is the time to replace all those fuel cell container rivits with nutserts for 10-32s so you don't have to go through this nutroll again (because you will) - as well as rivit the container on the inside at the bottom so that the little stones that bounce off of you during the race don't drop into the container and wear holes in the cell......cause that's how it starts.

And I guarantee you that once the sidepods are off and the car is split other issues will be found. The good news is that it will be easier to address the hydraulic issues he brought up.

This is also the time to take a look at a couple of other major items. Assess fit issues before putting everything back together and finding them at the track. This will be a concern regardless if it's the 94 he has now or the 95 he intends to buy. Much easier to make a seat with all the claptrap off. On a 90-96 VD, gauge visibility for taller drivers can be an issue as they are mounted behind the main hoop. But the big thing is comfort with the H&N device of your choice. I drove my car for several years just fine as it was made until I got fitted for a HANS. Luckily, it was a couple of years before I needed it and it was done by the HANS people, so they told me what needed to be done. For me at least, the OEM belt attachments were too low and too far outside to work well with the HANS. The belts crushed the device into my collarbones and it was extremely uncomfortable. I had to have new attachments brazed in.

Now if the cell was good, no need for any of this.

This is extremely helpful to scope what I am up against. Let me know your thoughts on this and I will appreciate it.
Since I am not trying to save the fuel cell, I was thinking of cutting a big access hole in the cell cover and drill the rivets from the inside out. Then it makes it simpler and quicker. I just have to make a new pattern for a new cell cover and use nutserts on them.

Does this sound like a easier/quicker approach or am I overlooking anything?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

To get a fuel cell out of a 94 you have to get the side panels out of the way. At a minimum, this means removing the sidepods and radiators. With enough fasteners removed you might be able to wrestle the panels out enough to get a 90 degree short drill kit in to drill out the rivits holding the cell cover on. But there are about six that are put in from the engine side of the firewall. Even with a 90 deg short drill, good luck with that. There is a distinct probability that you can't get enough access and the side panels have to come off. That means removing the front suspension and the nose box.

Yikes. My 94 (and 93 for that matter) must have been modified. IIR 3 screws in the front of the cover into a floor crossmember with nutserts and 2 into the bulkhead. I could pull the cell in 5 minutes once empty.

I'll dig up some pics if interested.

[Octonion]

Yikes. My 94 (and 93 for that matter) must have been modified. IIR 3 screws in the front of the cover into a floor crossmember with nutserts and 2 into the bulkhead. I could pull the cell in 5 minutes once empty.

I'll dig up some pics if interested.

Please post some pics. It will help me decide how I want mine redone.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

You can see the 3 nutserts on the cross rail. The bottom is lined with a felt material. The inside of the cell cover is also lined.

Cell1.JPG

With the cover in place and 3 screws attached.

Cell2.JPG

Upper section. 3 more screws.
Cell3.JPG

The cover is made from 3 pieces. Riveted from the inside out.
As you can see the sides come up a little and go to the floor. They were up against the rails but were not fastened. Was never a seating issue. Actually helped keep the seat from moving without having to fill to the sides..

[Rick Kirchner]

yeah, yours was modified.

i just replaced the rivits with nutserts - and I used some ensolite on each side (so the nutserts wouldn't abrade the cell) as well as ensolite gaskets where the outlet and inlet are to keep water out as much as possible.

The cell container sides were not attached to the lower frame rails, so all kind of crap fell in there and got under the cell. I rivited those from the inside, as well as made some angular reinforcements where the cell meets he firewall.

You cannot drill rivits out from the inside, and even if you could, the car will still have to come apart to put either the nutserts or new rivits in.

Here's a pic after I replaced the firewall. You can see the two sets of HANS compatible belt mounts vs the originals, the row of rivnuts across where the top of the cell container is, the reinforcements at the back (the sealant is a $$$$$ Dow Flourosilicone) and the rivits on the inside at the bottom.

One thing I'd do differently in the future is reverse the fold on the cell cover such that the nutserts are on the outtside of the cell container so I wouldn't have to worry about them eating into the cell.

[bassracer]

In my current frame up I am adding rivnuts to the lower frame for the 3 rivets. My upper bulkhead was previous just thru bolted which is still way easier than riveting but I forgot about rivnuts before attaching the bulkhead so.... it will remainthru bolted

[Rick Kirchner]

don't forget a couple of drain holes in the front corners so any leaks send fuel out the bottom