Mufflers, Alternators, Gear Ratios

[KField]

Before my friend and I ordered (3) FSCCA cars back and June, we had serious concerns because the cars were still being tested and developed, and that there were still shortcomings. ( We knew that they were changing wing profiles, intake manifolds, engine mapping, etc.) We were concerned that as updates were developed that we would be spending large sums of additional money just to keep our cars legal and competitve. I was told by the CSRs that Enterprises had assured them that as new parts were developed, that they would be provided to the purchasers of the early cars as part of the purchase price. This is apparantly not the case.
As a spec class, and certainly one that bears the SCCA name, and is promoted and sold by SCCA, we should expect to have cars that are LEGAL and reliable. Since all cars and the components are supposed to be the same, we should not all be out there experimenting with our own solutions to the car's problems. It looks as though Enterprises is having those of us with early cars perform all of the testing and development at our expense.
My current points of contention are:
1. Fact: These cars will not meet current sound requirements. Enterprises has finally developed and specified a muffler, which will be a REQUIRED component. At this time they want us to purchase them.
2. Fact: These cars are not finishing races because the batteries can't last the race distance. Enterprises has developed an "optional" alternator kit for the cars. These cars will not be reliable without these alternators. It really looks bad when a new spec car can't finish a race.
3. Fact: At Daytona, Morrosso, and Roebling Road these cars are running out of "gear". Driver at Daytona stated that he was at 5800 RPMs in 5th at the exit of chicane, approx 1/2 mile from next corner. We need to have optional gears ( at least 4th and 5th) available to those of us who run at the larger tracks.
I am not writing this post out of anger. We are excited about the new cars and are looking forward to getting our engines and racing.
I just feel that we should be sold a complete package, not a kit car that we have to buy extra major components to make work. Not in a spec class. Enterprises should step up to the plate and provide all of us with the parts needed to make these cars legal and reliable.

Keith Field
Chasis # 47

[Jim Christian]

We solved the noise problem by clamping a 90 deg Bend to the exaust pipe and turning it away from the meter.
We have run run 3 cars in 10 race weekends now. We have not had a single DNF due to low battery.
We did not run out of top gear at Elkhart Lake.
BTW peak power is at 6100, we shift at 6300.
JIM

[Tony Opheim]

Jim, what is the rev limit in the ECU? And what was the db drop with the 90 degree bend - in other words, how close to the limit (103 db I assume) were you?

[KField]

At Daytona, August 2 and 3, Robinson Motorsports was running one FSCCA car with a national driver. Car did not finish any session. Race was SARRC regional +/- 25 minutes.
Jim Dickson has informed me that cars will not meet sound requirements without mufflers.
Not trying to make a federal case, but cars should be supplied to us as legal and reliable with all of us using the same components.
Keith Field

[Jim Christian]

Tony,

The DB level has been different at every track. At Elkhart we were 103. We've been as low as 99.
If there is a rev limiter in the ECU we haven't found it. We've been to 6800 twice.

JIM

[Tony Opheim]

Thanks, Jim!

[speedstar]

As a car owner and a CSR I can see both sides of this issue. The first thing to keep in mind was that in order to get this new class kicked off as quickly as possible, V-D and Ent. wanted to introduce the car at the lowest price. I don't think there is anyone who has seen the car that doesn't think it is a great value, even with the exchange rate bump. CSR's cars cost just what yours do and there is no commission for our selling new cars. I have heard from a good source that Ent. has a minimal mark up on these cars as well and has already absorbed the cost for some of the issues from the original testing program.

As a new car with possible sorting issues, Ent. could have arbitrarily bumped the price to cover the cost of some unknown future problems, upgrades, etc. If there were none, they win and make a few more bucks. If there were a few problems (and there are) the extra cost would cover them.

They chose the course of the lowest introductory price which leaves them with the lease wiggle room to cover the cost of the problems.

As has been noted by several others. The battery is more of an inconvenience than a problem. We have run our car with no battery problems but we do keep it on charge between sessions and use an aux. battery to start. There is lots of room for a larger battery (SBS 30 will fit) which would probably help as well. I will be installing the alternator kit when it is available.

We will all need the muffler, but I'm not sure I can fault anyone for not forseeing this. Until you build the header and run the car, no one knows what the noise level will be.

Obviously, the top gear will need to be tall enough for any track but I like the concept of using one set of gears. We don't run at Daytona but we have plenty of gear for the tracks we run including Elkhart.

Regards, Don

[KField]

Don
Thank you for your perspective. I believe that the price of cars is held low in order to get some initial market penetration. I understand your point about Ent. not having extra wiggle room in the pricing. I just feel that us early pioneers should have the same package as those who follow. Maybe Ent. can compromise and at least help with the cost of the muffler which is not optional. I too like the concept of one set of gears, but if they aren't high enough..... ? I am looking forward to getting my car on track so that I can find out for myself.
Thank you all for your views.
Keith

[Chris Lorenz]

I think when you buy a NEW race car it should have all the parts to be ready to run. if you bought a new Chevy and then it would not pass emissions inspection i am sure you would be a little mad a Chevy to. Why would anyone sell a car that is not complete? The story about the price being low is just a marketing way to get the car off the ground and should not be used as a excuse to why you must spend your own money to get a NEW car running.
I think it is just bad business, Van Dieman has been making cars for years. i shouldn't be this had to tell what a car needs even if it is all on paper with no testing.

Chris Lorenz

[David Ferguson]

It's pretty typical of many race car manufacturers. My new Van Diemen Sports 2000 was shipped without brakes or a muffler -- they gave me a credit (about half of what it would cost to buy replacement parts). Despite that, I was glad to finally get the car!!

Some new race cars today only ship the unique parts (tub/suspension/bodywork), and the manufacturer just provides a list of where you can buy mirrors, fire systems, seat belts, brakes, headers, plumbing, etc.

[Chris Lorenz]

Dave
I can see your point on a "open class" car as you may want a certian this or that but with a spec car where you have to use a certian part. i would think it would come with it. I really like the car but i don't want to see a new racer buy one and get a bad taste when he or she finds out what they paid for wasn't what they thought.
Chris Lorenz

[Bill Maisey]

Racer friend just bought one. I find the price of the alternator kit at $600 hard to take. I was too shocked to ask him what he paid for the addon muffler.

[Da Bombito]

I have been watching this FSCCA class progress before I jump in.It seems to me that indeed you guys are the test lab for what should have been tested by SCCA ENT and Van Diemen before release.This class seems to have great potential but is not " urgently needed "enough to justify using you as Guinea pigs.As far as bang for the buck it does seem to be the best there is.

[Phulkrum]

I'll side with Enterprises on the alternator systems but the customer on mufflers (and maybe even first set of tires) My two cents worth:

Enterprises didn't list or even infer that a charging kit would be part of the package. From what I understand, it was the realization that if this car was to become part of a racing school's "fleet" that a charging system would be needed. The hours of driving per day couldn't be sustained by a battery. Most open wheel cars running in the "junior formula" ranks are still battery only systems and the systems can work fine with some dedicated attention to charging and boosting (albeit a pain in the butt).

The muffler, on the other hand, should be covered as part of the cost of the car. It is necessary to have to compete at most, if not all tracks. I can understand the fact that it's difficult to predict the car's noise, but it shouldn't be us that pays the price for a car that went to market (with a set price) before sound levels were established. I don't see anywhere in the car's marketing that indicates that further expenses should be expected. I didn't see a clause " the car is under development and Enterprises reserves the right to increase prices to allow for unforseen needed additions as needed to allow the car to run".

On Enterprises' FSCCA website it mentions the car's tires and then lists the price. In my mind, this gives the buyer the impression that the car comes with tires. Because it's not clearly stated, I can give Enterprises some understanding on this issue.

Speaking of tires, I decided to run the car as long as possible on one set of tires. (you really never know until you try) My experience:

At nine to twelve heat cycles the tires began to loose grip after a ten minutes at speed (after a lap or two of cold).
At twelve to fourteen they got greasy after five minutes at speed.
At fifteen, hold on after a few minutes (laps) at speed, they become evil. They did however give me about five laps of grip before going away.

Therefore, I can use some of the old rubber for practice (but not qualifying because of the proposed tire rule).

Scott Brickey

[KField]

It seems that, for the most part, we all agree that Ent. should at least supply us with a muffler. (The 90 degree angled pipe is a bandaid and not trully reflective of legal sound) I would appreciate it if those of you who agree with me would e-mail Jim Dickson (JDickson@SCCA.com) to express your opinion. He seems like a reasonable guy and I am sure that he will appreciate your input. Who knows, maybe this will work to our benefit.
Thanks again for all of your feedback.
Keith

[Justin_H]

Originally posted by KField:
It seems that, for the most part, we all agree that Ent. should at least supply us with a muffler.

News flash- as of Saturday mufflers are being supplied free of charge, although the shipping and clamps are not free. I just got mine from Kevin at Comprent. The clamps he supplies are really nice.

Justin Huffman

[KField]

This is good news. I think that if everyonr shares their opinions, that it helps us all.

[Enterprises]

With Elite's help, we will be replacing all shifter pins in the tranmission. Enough new pins arrived today for fifteen transmissions. More are being air shipped from England tomorrow and should be here in a few days. Anyone planning to race this coming weekend, Aug. 15, 16, 17, should contact us immediatly and we will next day your replacement pins. Elite also suggests you deburr the barrel slot slightly if necessary to be sure the pin runs smoothly.

We are sorry for any inconvience but are attempting to rectify any problems as quickly as possible. Elite will continue to look at other areas to determine if other actions should be taken.

Jim Dickson