Paddle Shifters

[Darryl Wills]

My CSRs gave me fuzzy answers when I asked if I could break an FE track record with a SADEV gearbox. I will keep my silver coils in the box if I can. I actually have to be fast first, but that's a different problem.

Last race I shredded several cogs, maybe some bearings and definitely some dog rings of my Elite 5 speed. I feel there is too much to repair to justify the costs. A replacement Elite even at discounted used rates doesn't make sense when a generational upgrade part is sitting out there and only getting more expensive the longer I wait. I say that, but if I don't have cash come April next year; I may regret this.

sent you a PM

[Allemay]

What's everyone's take on paddle shifters next year in FE2? I know Gabe wants them and plans to place the verbal order with Scott at Gingerman this weekend. Any other takers? What about the Pros/Cons of having a mixed field?

Personally, I think the paddle shifters were needed to keep FE2 relevant to modern race cars and can help attract drivers to the class.

As a guy looking to get into a formula car for the first time I can say that I've excluded any car with a traditional H pattern. At a minimum I want a sequential transmission. I'd really like paddle shifters but only willing to pay about $5k for that option. It's one of the main reasons I'm leaning towards a F1000 or P2 car over any of the other classes. And just for context, I'm an old guy, not some young sim racer.

On the other hand, if you keep changing rules and adding costs you may lose your current loyal following. Maybe a weight penalty for those who implement?

Tough decision.

[Fred Michael]

As a guy looking to get into a formula car for the first time I can say that I've excluded any car with a traditional H pattern. At a minimum I want a sequential transmission. I'd really like paddle shifters but only willing to pay about $5k for that option. It's one of the main reasons I'm leaning towards a F1000 or P2 car over any of the other classes. And just for context, I'm an old guy, not some young sim racer.

On the other hand, if you keep changing rules and adding costs you may lose your current loyal following. Maybe a weight penalty for those who implement?

Tough decision.

FE2 is already sequential, always has been. The question is if paddle shifters make sense to the competitors

[CheckeredFlag]

As a guy looking to get into a formula car for the first time I can say that I've excluded any car with a traditional H pattern. At a minimum I want a sequential transmission. I'd really like paddle shifters but only willing to pay about $5k for that option. It's one of the main reasons I'm leaning towards a F1000 or P2 car over any of the other classes. And just for context, I'm an old guy, not some young sim racer.

On the other hand, if you keep changing rules and adding costs you may lose your current loyal following. Maybe a weight penalty for those who implement?

Tough decision.

As Fred said above, FE2 is sequential. It also has no-lift upshift, but downshifting still requires blipping the throttle. There's a shift handle we bought from Alliance Autosport that barely requires the driver to take the right hand off the wheel. Others have argued here that the paddle shifters won't save that much lap time in FE2 given the current drivetrain configuration.

[Noah]

As Fred said above, FE2 is sequential. It also has no-lift upshift, but downshifting still requires blipping the throttle. There's a shift handle we bought from Alliance Autosport that barely requires the driver to take the right hand off the wheel. Others have argued here that the paddle shifters won't save that much lap time in FE2 given the current drivetrain configuration.

Paddle shifters and auto blip in FE2's is less about performance and more about keeping the car relevant. The FE2 is now competing for hearts and minds with similarly, if not cheaper first gen F4s coming on the market after Gen 2 start rolling out next year. The values of FE's will drop when people can buy a car with similar performance, a carbon tub paddle shift and auto blip for less money. Classes that haven't reached the critical mass of Spec Racer Ford (1000 + cars) die if they don't evolve. Also there is the Pro Mazda with more power, a carbon tub, paddle shift and traction control. How much have you really saved if you don't spend any money to upgrade you car and it drops in value 50%.

There's been too much sort term thinking, and we need to have a discussion about what we have to do so that FE2 has enough cars to fill a runoffs grid in 2028.

[Noah]

My CSRs gave me fuzzy answers when I asked if I could break an FE track record with a SADEV gearbox. I will keep my silver coils in the box if I can. I actually have to be fast first, but that's a different problem.

Last race I shredded several cogs, maybe some bearings and definitely some dog rings of my Elite 5 speed. I feel there is too much to repair to justify the costs. A replacement Elite even at discounted used rates doesn't make sense when a generational upgrade part is sitting out there and only getting more expensive the longer I wait. I say that, but if I don't have cash come April next year; I may regret this.

The GCR defines an FE2 as a car running the MZR 2.0. You can break a FE record with SADEV black coils and all.

[Peter Olivola]

Paddle shifters and auto blip in FE2's is less about performance and more about keeping the car relevant. The FE2 is now competing for hearts and minds with similarly, if not cheaper first gen F4s coming on the market after Gen 2 start rolling out next year. The values of FE's will drop when people can buy a car with similar performance, a carbon tub paddle shift and auto blip for less money. Classes that haven't reached the critical mass of Spec Racer Ford (1000 + cars) die if they don't evolve. Also there is the Pro Mazda with more power, a carbon tub, paddle shift and traction control. How much have you really saved if you don't spend any money to upgrade you car and it drops in value 50%.

There's been too much sort term thinking, and we need to have a discussion about what we have to do so that FE2 has enough cars to fill a runoffs grid in 2028.

Are you comparing the performance of the FE2 to the upcoming or previous F4?

[Noah]

Are you comparing the performance of the FE2 to the upcoming or previous F4?

I am not comparing their performance. I'm comparing their appeal.

I am saying they are similar enough that a someone looking to get into Formula car would consider both an FE2 and an F4. And with all the teenagers selling their F4s for new ones, we will see a growing number of Gen1 F4s in SCCA competition.

[Peter Olivola]

I am not comparing their performance. I'm comparing their appeal.

I am saying they are similar enough that a someone looking to get into Formula car would consider both an FE2 and an F4. And with all the teenagers selling their F4s for new ones, we will see a growing number of Gen1 F4s in SCCA competition.

How appealing do you think a full on whizzy bit equipped F4 will be continuously running at the back of the field?

[Noah]

How appealing do you think a full on whizzy bit equipped F4 will be continuously running at the back of the field?

It won't be at the back of the field if the field is full of F4s.

I'll summarize... With more cheaper F4 cars coming on the market, F4 will likely replace FE2 as the largest Formula car class in SCCA competition, with more new drivers choosing the class over FE2, and potentially some FE2 moving to F4 or other classes as the class shrinks.

It's not a question of if, but when. 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? And because statistically we know that 70% of people racing FE2 today won't be racing it 10 years, that decision will be made by people coming into formula car racing and not the people racing FE2 now, and they will 100% base that decision of the appeal of the class, and 100% they love whizzy bits.

The rights and wrongs of it don't matter. It's just reality.

[CheckeredFlag]

I guess it's too soon to bring up improving the aero on the FE2. LOL.

[Agitator]

It won't be at the back of the field if the field is full of F4s.

I'll summarize... With more cheaper F4 cars coming on the market, F4 will likely replace FE2 as the largest Formula car class in SCCA competition, with more new drivers choosing the class over FE2, and potentially some FE2 moving to F4 or other classes as the class shrinks.

It's not a question of if, but when. 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? And because statistically we know that 70% of people racing FE2 today won't be racing it 10 years, that decision will be made by people coming into formula car racing and not the people racing FE2 now, and they will 100% base that decision of the appeal of the class, and 100% they love whizzy bits.

The rights and wrongs of it don't matter. It's just reality.

Did I miss where F4 is even an SCCA Majors class? How can it replace FE2 when not a single F4 raced at the Runoffs in any class this year? How many "old" F4s were produced? Formula Atlantic appears to be dead, and that's where I saw them being raced. I'm not being argumentative, but it's a stretch to say that in 2 years there's the possibility of it being a bigger class. I have no idea what the future of FE2 will be, regardless of whether we add paddle shifters or not....but I do know that it was tied as the 3rd most prescribed class at this year's Runoffs.

[Peter Olivola]

It won't be at the back of the field if the field is full of F4s.

I'll summarize... With more cheaper F4 cars coming on the market, F4 will likely replace FE2 as the largest Formula car class in SCCA competition, with more new drivers choosing the class over FE2, and potentially some FE2 moving to F4 or other classes as the class shrinks.

It's not a question of if, but when. 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? And because statistically we know that 70% of people racing FE2 today won't be racing it 10 years, that decision will be made by people coming into formula car racing and not the people racing FE2 now, and they will 100% base that decision of the appeal of the class, and 100% they love whizzy bits.

The rights and wrongs of it don't matter. It's just reality.

How many F4 cars meeting spec you describe have been produced? How many FE2s are there? I'm not seeing your asserted reality.

[Agitator]

Here’s something to consider when projecting the future of gen 1 F4 cars; will they have trackside support? It is a nice car that can be bought for fairly cheap…but then what?

i can tear a corner off my FE2, and have it repaired in hours at the track. At a Super Tour event, there will be at least two CSRs there with the parts I need. If I break a header, lose a brake line, bend a wing end plate, or need new brake pads, someone will have the parts. If a CSR doesn’t have a part, one of my competitors will.

Decisions on what car to buy are indeed 100% based on the appeal of the class…but not necessarily the car. I chose FE2 because I it’s a fun car to drive, there are healthy fields at most races, and I can get parts easily. I didn’t even consider an F4, even though there were several for sale. What class would I race it in? Will I be able to race it nationally or just regionally? What shops are prepping them? Where do I get parts? Will there be any guarantee that they’ll continue to manufacture parts for it? What rule set will be used? What if they decide on MORE whizzy bits? What’s to stop if from becoming another F1000, FX, Formula Atlantic?

If you feel like we need to appeal to the younger crowd, I don’t think you’ve walked the paddock of a recent event. Yes, there are young drivers, but a majority of us are middle aged guys that have done well enough in life to have a cool hobby. There are places and cars to race all over the world if you aspire to make it to F1 or Indy.

A final note: The track record at VIR in an F4 with “whizzy bits” is more than two seconds slower than an FE2.