Miatas in SVRA Group 2?

[Ralph Z.]

I just looked up the Group 2 race results for SVRA at Mid Ohio and to my surprise they combined Mazda Miatas with Group 2 formula cars. We were not able to attend this race.

Does anyone know the reasoning behind combining Miatas with Group 2?

Will it be permanent?

Certainly not something I'm in favor of. I appreciate being able to run in groups with similar cars. To this point, Group 2 has been FFs and FBs.

Can anyone lend more insight?

Thanks.

[bzneil]

I was not able to make this race as planned either but I did find that a little concerning. I did a couple practice sessions at Mid Ohio with some Miatas in my CFF and it was a little sketchy. They seemed to have problems seeing me in any of there mirrors. I did not like being next to them in any corners.

I would assume they did a spilt start?

[TimH]

Even with a split start it wouldn't be long before things got mixed together, and those guys are notorious for rubbing each other in the corners. Truly scary. We manage to get along with the SRF guys reasonably well, but Miatas?

[Tom Fraelich]

Even with a split start it wouldn't be long before things got mixed together, and those guys are notorious for rubbing each other in the corners. Truly scary. We manage to get along with the SRF guys reasonably well, but Miatas?

Does anyone know the reasoning behind combining Miatas with Group 2?

The "reasoning" is the same old story. At Mid-Ohio there was a small handful of Group 2 cars. You're not going to get a seperate run group for just a few cars, so where would you like them to go? With Group 9 wings and slicks? Maybe mixed in with a big gaggle of small production cars?
I've ran with the Miatas at Charlotte in my March and found them to be well behaved and aware. Not optimal, but again, what else can you do with small entry numbers in some of these groups?

Tom

[halcyon]

Same situation at Lime Rock - Groups 1,2,3,4 were combined. We had a 10-15 car Miata race with 4 FFs and and handful of small bore vintage production cars. One of the Miatas was running coolant and had a major leak putting down antifreeze just coming out of the left hander continuing for about a 1/3 of the way around the track. I saw cars slipping and sliding, pulled off line and dropped my Type 69 to ~15-20 mph. I counted a dozen cars that kept racing hard and slide off track many making contact with someone or something....very little awareness of what was happening ahead of them.

We also had a lot of frustration during the races. The Miatas were running slicks (I guess R7's is what they run) and were a faster in the turns. The FF's and some of the production cars were faster in a straight line. Miatas were passing in the turns ion the narrow Lime Rock track, just have the FF's zip by on the straight...then repeat. It would have been a better scenario to have everyone on equal tires.

[halcyon]

Even with a split start it wouldn't be long before things got mixed together, and those guys are notorious for rubbing each other in the corners. Truly scary. We manage to get along with the SRF guys reasonably well, but Miatas?

I don't mind racing with Miatas, but I was disappointed to see SVRA letting Miata's with multiple body panels damaged (that should be a big clue) on track with open wheel cars.

[fitfan]

We had a 10-15 car Miata race with 4 FF....

and there is the answer, sanctioning vintage races is a business, and customers are needed to 'buy the product' i've been saying for many years- tires this, engine specs that, chassis years... none of that are the issues. the issue is loosing FF run groups to nascar and miatas and whatever else is popular. if they cars don't come out, the run group goes to those who will pay to register.

this is why 'sh!t box" endurance racing is taking off gang busters and events fill up in days of registration opening.

its sux... its supply and demand. we need to think "recruiting any local cars" and support FF of any type, or make, and just get the darn cars on track. classifications can be sorted on engines and tires or whatever.

my suggestion years back was to drop the "era and engine type" classifications and go with tire classification "vintage, slick, dot radial". any FF out there in the US could run without requiring set up changes to participate.

[Garey Guzman]

I've been fortunate to run with several Organizations and I'd have to say the biggest reason for combining the groups is unhappy customers who have gone elsewhere to play. If an organization is focusing on the various Pro series they are running and hacking off time from the Vintage guys, the Vintage guys will go someplace else. Session time in Vintage seems to be short anyway (compared to SCCA) but to get further reductions makes it less enjoyable.

So if I want to go to a Vintage event, I look to see where the Vintage cars are. I would have thought there would have been a bunch with HSR at Barber but there wasn't. I'll keep looking but SCCA is really the best bang for my open wheel buck.

[EricP]

SVRA is no longer even close to what it was 15 years ago. All the F4 and TransAm they are doing uses up nearly all the air.

[Tom Fraelich]

I've been fortunate to run with several Organizations and I'd have to say the biggest reason for combining the groups is unhappy customers who have gone elsewhere to play. If an organization is focusing on the various Pro series they are running and hacking off time from the Vintage guys, the Vintage guys will go someplace else. Session time in Vintage seems to be short anyway (compared to SCCA) but to get further reductions makes it less enjoyable.

So if I want to go to a Vintage event, I look to see where the Vintage cars are. I would have thought there would have been a bunch with HSR at Barber but there wasn't. I'll keep looking but SCCA is really the best bang for my open wheel buck.

"I've been fortunate to run with several Organizations and I'd have to say the biggest reason for combining the groups is unhappy customers who have gone elsewhere to play"

OK Gary, if that's the case, where have all the flat bottom Atlantics, Super Vees and F2 cars (Monoposto F70) gone? Not HSR Not VDCA Not VRG . You can make a case for the Fords leaving for the smaller "club" groups but that doesn't account for the drastic reduction in other groups. They've been left out in the cold.

[Garey Guzman]

"I've been fortunate to run with several Organizations and I'd have to say the biggest reason for combining the groups is unhappy customers who have gone elsewhere to play"

OK Garey, if that's the case, where have all the flat bottom Atlantics, Super Vees and F2 cars (Monoposto F70) gone? Not HSR Not VDCA Not VRG . You can make a case for the Fords leaving for the smaller "club" groups but that doesn't account for the drastic reduction in other groups. They've been left out in the cold.

That's very true and very disheartening too! I had purchased an air-cooled FSV, thinking it would be a lot of fun for the money and a great way to ease into Vintage. Unfortunately, I don't think I've seen an a/c FSV at any of the events I did in 2019 or at Barber last month. They seem to e doing ok in the UK. Maybe the new Masters series will get things going. It seems that it more up to the car owners than the Organization owners. If we work together, we can make things happen.

[Tom Fraelich]

That's very true and very disheartening too! I had purchased an air-cooled FSV, thinking it would be a lot of fun for the money and a great way to ease into Vintage. Unfortunately, I don't think I've seen an a/c FSV at any of the events I did in 2019 or at Barber last month. They seem to e doing ok in the UK. Maybe the new Masters series will get things going. It seems that it more up to the car owners than the Organization owners. If we work together, we can make things happen.

"It seems that it more up to the car owners than the Organization owners. If we work together, we can make things happen."

And that, my friend, is exactly the point. We can blame the "owners" all we want but until we start showing up in meaningful numbers we can't expect a change. We saw that "work together"...."make things happen" scenario with the S2000 cars years back, when Peter and his crew decided to carve out a place for those cars in vintage. It worked only because they came out in sufficient numbers to prove they "deserved" a place on the grid.

[Lotus7]

SVRA is no longer even close to what it was 15 years ago. All the F4 and TransAm they are doing uses up nearly all the air.

I've been at a number of SVRA/TAm/F4/FR weekends over the last two seasons, and can say there is equal hard feelings on all sides of the game.
The TAm guys have often been delayed due to excessive "clean up" of formula cars.
Equally, how about that vintage car that oiled the entire track at Road Atlanta recently and caused a 3 hour delay....

Until every class is so over-subscribed that they can support the whole weekend event by themselves, this is what we have, might as well try to enjoy it.

[jrh3]

I've been fortunate to run with several Organizations and I'd have to say the biggest reason for combining the groups is unhappy customers who have gone elsewhere to play. If an organization is focusing on the various Pro series they are running and hacking off time from the Vintage guys, the Vintage guys will go someplace else. Session time in Vintage seems to be short anyway (compared to SCCA) but to get further reductions makes it less enjoyable.

So if I want to go to a Vintage event, I look to see where the Vintage cars are. I would have thought there would have been a bunch with HSR at Barber but there wasn't. I'll keep looking but SCCA is really the best bang for my open wheel buck.

The great turnout at RMVR sure looks like they are doing it right.

[BorkRacing]

Just took a look at entries for all the TA classes at Lime Rock (11) and Road America (25)
Looks like they are a dying class as well, there were more Formula Fords at the Pittsburgh Vintage GP (28) and we had a low turnout.
Thinking SVRA may be the problem not the car owners/drivers for the lack of numbers at their events. IMHO

[Peter Olivola]

The great turnout at RMVR sure looks like they are doing it right.

As good as the RMVR turnout is, not just formula cars, but overall, it wouldn't cover track rental costs at some of the destination tracks used by SVRA. Those number differences require class groupings that are sub optimal by club racing standards, but aren't an impediment in vintage.

Understanding how and why different organizations do things requires more than a parochial perspective.

[Tom Fraelich]

As good as the RMVR turnout is, not just formula cars, but overall, it wouldn't cover track rental costs at some of the destination tracks used by SVRA. Those number differences require class groupings that are sub optimal by club racing standards, but aren't an impediment in vintage.

Understanding how and why different organizations do things requires more than a parochial perspective.

Well stated Peter. Clubs like VDCA and RMVR (and others) do a fantastic job of meeting their members needs at smaller tracks in their regions. It's a decidedly different game when you're trying to include a broad spectrum of cars at world class tracks, pay a full time (not volunteer) staff and do it more than 4 or 5 times a season across the entire country. I'm thrilled to see the "clubs" doing well and I've enjoyed my experiences racing with them but I also enjoy taking my '79 March to Watkins Glen, Mid-Ohio, Indy, Barber etc. and that's not going to work without SVRA and HSR.

[BorkRacing]

Well stated Peter. Clubs like VDCA and RMVR (and others) do a fantastic job of meeting their members needs at smaller tracks in their regions. It's a decidedly different game when you're trying to include a broad spectrum of cars at world class tracks, pay a full time (not volunteer) staff and do it more than 4 or 5 times a season across the entire country. I'm thrilled to see the "clubs" doing well and I've enjoyed my experiences racing with them but I also enjoy taking my '79 March to Watkins Glen, Mid-Ohio, Indy, Barber etc. and that's not going to work without SVRA and HSR.

FRP and VRG go to world class tracks with 3 hours on track per event per class.
SVRA jumped the shark tank long ago...

[Ducman]

Hi all, ironic I just joined this forum as am hopeful to be transitioning into vintage formula racing. Had been leaning toward B looking for a car now. I also noticed this Miata thing in SVRA and was curious and a little put off. Nothing wrong with Miatas but it sort of spoils the whole idea doesn’t it?

I’ll search and/or start another thread: where are the classic open wheel cars? What are the grids like? Even though I think I’d really like the B cars am I better off to go wings and slicks to have someone to play with?

[Velodrome Racer]

Hello Gang-I was just here looking for some parts and noticed this thread.
I was racing my Merlyn in the Mid-O group 2 with the Miatas. I hadn't raced there for a few years-The last time was in my 1959 Bugeye-and I wanted to bring my Merlyn there for the 1st time, and only my 5th race weekend with her. I was a bit worried about how it would be-and the very first practice session, the started the Miatas in front of us, it was a mess. We (The FF's), were in and around them before the session was over. The very next session, to SVRA's credit, they staggered the starts for every session and race after that 1st one, and we never saw them again. As one seasoned FF racer said to me when I asked what to do, he said we would just run off and hide, and he was right! Here is my visor camera view of the Sunday race to the podium. https://youtu.be/8QCghb_NO_I