Cryo treat clutches ?

[stonebridge20]

Yes !

[mark elder]

Hi
Do you have an experience with the remade Ford FF block? My limited experience with these is that the block is fairly green. They seem to go best by being built up, run lots then honed with new rings. The bottom ends seem fine. When the engine is rebuilt for its second time, they are quicker; up to 3 bhp.
I have wondered if cryo might prevent the need for the second rebuild (and get me horsepower just with the first build).
Thoughts?

[stonebridge20]

Hi
Do you have an experience with the remade Ford FF block? My limited experience with these is that the block is fairly green. They seem to go best by being built up, run lots then honed with new rings. The bottom ends seem fine. When the engine is rebuilt for its second time, they are quicker; up to 3 bhp.
I have wondered if cryo might prevent the need for the second rebuild (and get me horsepower just with the first build).
Thoughts?

In a nutshell, Cryo treating the block will "season" it in 3 days (my programed Cryo cycle time) by relieving induced stresses. It's beneficial to do any machine work post Cryo treatment.
My Cryo and REM-ISF treated Kent, FC Pinto and Suzuki GSXR engines hold peak Hp records on 4 major engine builders dyno's.

Yes, I'm gloating.

Pic is the "smalls" of a Kent we did last month. Block, crank and head hadn't been loaded into the Cryo chamber yet.

[jtaphorn]

"Engine Builder" recommend Cryo after machining.

"One word of advice would be to make sure that all of the machining is performed before having the cryogenic process performed. Whether you are considering a few pieces of an engine build or all of the components needed, make sure that the machining is performed and the assembly mocked up before having it done. This isn’t because subsequent machining is impossible, but it is certainly tougher because the metal becomes harder.

In fact, I have personal experience with this. Some time back I had an engine assembly treated for a spec class race engine. All of the machining was performed and the engine was mocked up to finalize everything before we sent the assembly off to be treated. Once the engine returned we then sent the components out to be coated with various other forms of engine coatings before the assembly. After the coatings were applied we reassembled the engine only to find out that the exhaust spring pockets now had to be machined an additional .060”. I’m not sure how that was missed but the problem had to be corrected. The solution was, of course, to cut the spring pockets and continue on. But that simple cutting of the spring pocket became something of an undertaking because the cryogenically treated cylinder head was now so hard and durable that it just kept dulling the cutter blade. We could machine the spring pockets but it was surprising to experience how the material had changed so aggressively through the cryogenic process."

[stonebridge20]

"Engine Builder" recommend Cryo after machining.

"One word of advice would be to make sure that all of the machining is performed before having the cryogenic process performed. Whether you are considering a few pieces of an engine build or all of the components needed, make sure that the machining is performed and the assembly mocked up before having it done. This isn’t because subsequent machining is impossible, but it is certainly tougher because the metal becomes harder.

In fact, I have personal experience with this. Some time back I had an engine assembly treated for a spec class race engine. All of the machining was performed and the engine was mocked up to finalize everything before we sent the assembly off to be treated. Once the engine returned we then sent the components out to be coated with various other forms of engine coatings before the assembly. After the coatings were applied we reassembled the engine only to find out that the exhaust spring pockets now had to be machined an additional .060”. I’m not sure how that was missed but the problem had to be corrected. The solution was, of course, to cut the spring pockets and continue on. But that simple cutting of the spring pocket became something of an undertaking because the cryogenically treated cylinder head was now so hard and durable that it just kept dulling the cutter blade. We could machine the spring pockets but it was surprising to experience how the material had changed so aggressively through the cryogenic process."

You're the second person to put that article under my nose in the past 3 weeks. I can't count how many times total over the years. That rag really gets around !

Complete horse crap !

[ejsprint30]

Cryoing does not make anything harder...it perfects the original heat treatment process. Machining should always be done after. Tough does not mean "harder". When you subject parts to -320 below zero, you are slowing molecular movement almost to a stop, but not quite. During the ascend phase to ambient, you are causing a symmetrical realignment of the molecular structure. For those that questioned, I had a Rockwell on hand to test before and after.

I owned CryoPower in Ohio in the mid 2000's, and the bread and butter of my business was cutting tools. If a cryoed part was harder to machine after the process, they did something wrong...period. Brittle is not what we achieve or shoot for. In my system, I would always put in a light bulb...never broke, and they lasted twice as long.

It is crucial to do a heat cycle to 300 degrees F afterward for 1 hour for all ferrous metals treated, and let coast to ambient. This would soften any newly created martensite. And yes, I have a metallurgical background...ASM in Ohio.

Unfortunately, I think that there have been some labs over the years that never had the correct cycle time and have lead to misinformation and part failures. Done properly, there is no substitute...period.

[Rick Iverson]

In a nutshell, Cryo treating the block will "season" it in 3 days (my programed Cryo cycle time) by relieving induced stresses. It's beneficial to do any machine work post Cryo treatment.
My Cryo and REM-ISF treated Kent, FC Pinto and Suzuki GSXR engines hold peak Hp records on 4 major engine builders dyno's.

Yes, I'm gloating.

Pic is the "smalls" of a Kent we did last month. Block, crank and head hadn't been loaded into the Cryo chamber yet.

Mike;

A ton of stuff coming your way.

[stonebridge20]

Mike;

A ton of stuff coming your way.

You've been a good customer in the past Rick and I always appreciate your business.

[stonebridge20]

Cryoing does not make anything harder...it perfects the original heat treatment process. Machining should always be done after. Tough does not mean "harder". When you subject parts to -320 below zero, you are slowing molecular movement almost to a stop, but not quite. During the ascend phase to ambient, you are causing a symmetrical realignment of the molecular structure. For those that questioned, I had a Rockwell on hand to test before and after.

I owned CryoPower in Ohio in the mid 2000's, and the bread and butter of my business was cutting tools. If a cryoed part was harder to machine after the process, they did something wrong...period. Brittle is not what we achieve or shoot for. In my system, I would always put in a light bulb...never broke, and they lasted twice as long.

It is crucial to do a heat cycle to 300 degrees F afterward for 1 hour for all ferrous metals treated, and let coast to ambient. This would soften any newly created martensite. And yes, I have a metallurgical background...ASM in Ohio.

Unfortunately, I think that there have been some labs over the years that never had the correct cycle time and have lead to misinformation and part failures. Done properly, there is no substitute...period.

You've got more patients than I sir. I sometimes feel like a broken record when explaining the benefits of Cryo treatment for the umpteenth time. Trying to explain the benefits of something that you can't see, hear or feel is somewhat challenging to say the least.

[sabre1fv]

I am interested in learning more about the process being discussed; can you provide or share some additional information about how/why the process works?

What I don't understand is the benefit the cryo treatment provides; it seems to me you are 'locking' in any stresses with the freezing process. The heating process and then verrrry slow cooling would seem to allow any internal stresses in the part to relax, depending of course on the part internal temp reached and how slow the cooling process is. I have heard of this process used for stabilizing 6061 Aluminum plate prior to machining, though I think it was multiple cold/heat cycles.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this.

-Jim

[Hardingfv32]

Google 'cryo treatment pdf' and you will find papers/articles on the subject.

Brian

[ejsprint30]

You are not "locking in" stresses...actually, cryoing relieves stress.

When a high carbon steel part is heat treated, it is brought up to it's austenitizing temperature, the part is literally in liquid form, but holds its original shape. Molecular motion is in high speed. After soaking at this temperature, the part is quenched in oil. This shocks the part (and you get the transformation into the martensitic structure ), and the molecular structure is now locked in that position. Usually, a heat temper is required to reduce any brittleness. This process is far from perfect.

What the cryo process does is continue the heat treatment process by giving the part a symmetrical realignment of the molecular structure...done by slowing molecular motion to almost a stop, (achieved during the soak period at -320 below), and slowly bringing back to ambient. Again...all ferrous metals need to be heat cycled to 300 for at least an hour to soften any newly created martensite that was not transformed during the original heat treatment process.

High carbon heat treated parts exhibit the best results from a proper cryo treatment...this is not to say that non-ferrous metals do not benefit from the process.

Some of the most common race parts we used to treat were...
funny car exhaust valve springs (went from 2 passes to 8 before needing replacement)
ring and pinion gear sets (spicer used to have a set up sheet specifically for my treated parts)
brake rotors (did a lot of these for late model circle track and sprint cars)
valve train, cranks, cams, rods, clutches, gears, pistons, rings, axles, cv's, bearings
headers...anything welded

After treating ball bearings (usually S2 material), I would pack them with chrome polish and put in a lathe (very slow back gear speed), run the tail stock up with a piece of rubber in it to stop the center from spinning. Go both directions for about 10 minutes. Final step was a wash in an ultrasonic cleaner. These you would have to feel to appreciate. Used them in a lot of karting engines.

[billtebbutt]

"After treating ball bearings (usually S2 material), I would pack them with chrome polish and put in a lathe (very slow back gear speed), run the tail stock up with a piece of rubber in it to stop the center from spinning. Go both directions for about 10 minutes. Final step was a wash in an ultrasonic cleaner. These you would have to feel to appreciate. Used them in a lot of karting engines."

Yeah, that's why I tune in to Apex............... I learn neat stuff pretty much every day

cheers,
BT

[stonebridge20]

"After treating ball bearings (usually S2 material), I would pack them with chrome polish and put in a lathe (very slow back gear speed), run the tail stock up with a piece of rubber in it to stop the center from spinning. Go both directions for about 10 minutes. Final step was a wash in an ultrasonic cleaner. These you would have to feel to appreciate. Used them in a lot of karting engines."

Yeah, that's why I tune in to Apex............... I learn neat stuff pretty much every day

cheers,
BT

Or just send the bearings to me Bill and after I Cryo treat them, I pop them apart and REM-ISF polish the inner and outer races along with the balls.