New Formula Vee Committee

[jpetillo]

A new Formula Vee Committee is being formed with the primary roles being to help the promotion and growth of the FV class in the US and keeping the cars viable for the long term.

For more information please go to the link on the FV Interchange ...

http://www.formulavee.org/viewtopic....p=34110#p34110

John

[Ed Womer]

Well hopefully this might go somewhere good. Just remember the spirit of the class is FUN AFFORDABLE racing, with a HUGE emphasis on the AFFORDABLE part.

As someone who has raced vee for 35+ years and seen all of the changes in that time, it always seems to that every good idea gets pushed aside since the status quo always seems to control the topic and even though the class has so far evolved from the original car, they only want to protect their interest in remaining at the top regardless of the cost.

Just about any change has been to keep the few who produce the parts needed to be the only supplier in the game. $1500+ extremely modified intakes and $3000+ disc brake packages are just the tip of the iceberg.

If the goal is to promote involvement, then allow off the shelf parts to be used not specially built to meet BAD rules developed nearly a half century ago based on parts that were easily obtained then but UN-obtainable now, so unwilling to allow anything different because there was no need to then but what limits anyone from wanting to get involved today. Fighting over complicated rules based on 60 year old designs is in my opinion, stupid. If needed make a change and keep making them to keep the cost down.

Step back everyone the flaming is about to start!

Ed

[jpetillo]

Ed, I didn't see anything controversial in what you said. Sensible thoughts to me. John

[problemchild]

Our carbon fuel-based recreational vehicles have a limited lifespan. We can argue whether that will be a decade or longer. Any major reform to a class based on 60 year old rules, good or bad, is just a complete waste of time. The time to do that was 30 years ago. The entire concept of the class is the stability of having 60 year old rules.

Any committee's sole purpose should be managing part supply and sourcing alternative replacement parts. Period!

[Matt Clark]

Any major reform to a class based on 60 year old rules, good or bad, is just a complete waste of time. The time to do that was 30 years ago

Agreed... we should absolutely let the class wither & die now for us current racers (then try to find a new place to run), because racers before us didn't fix it 30 years ago.

[problemchild]

All the other OW classes and event organizers are in the exact same situation. The only reason that FV will need to find another place to run, will be if car counts decline due to disenfranchising racers or obsoleting cars.

The committee should be venders and parts people. The time for progressives is long gone. As someone who pushed for progress for 35 years, until the last few years, that is apparent. Had we been more successful in the past, junior OW racing would be much better off, although still under threat by environmental challenges. Spec tires for FV, FF, and FC came 30-40 years too late to have the massive impact that could have changed our course. No change at this point, that does not lower costs, will have any positive impact. Starting a new committee with an agenda to initiate change, will only have a negative impact.

As a person who is the exact same age as FV, I am just trying to survive for another decade as a productive member of society. I am not looking to start a new career or upsize anything in my life. Mostly the opposite. That is especially applicable to activities related to carbon fuel-based technology.

[E1pix]

Perhaps I’m missing subtleties in the mission.

If it’s to band racers together within a few different areas, regions if you will, that should be a good thing.

If it’s an attempt to build toward holding events outside of SCCA, that reminds of IndyCar taking 20 years to get it all back together. In this case there’s not enough time nor support, and certainly not if it divides fields.

I tend to believe most huge infrastructure changes take about triple the time we fear they might. In this case, a blessing for racing as is. Per Greg’s comment, I think internal combustions will circulate racetracks for some time to come yet.

Best of Luck whatever the goal. If done right, maybe we could see 60 Vees take a green flag again.

I very much like any concept that brings racers and suppliers together, especially when both — whether by committee, or participant-supported by whatever means. That’s sure worked for some winged formula classes of late, as has been properly and vigorously-PRed right here.

[problemchild]

Does anybody believe, that in 20 years, they will be driving their carbon-fueled RV to a track like Watkins Glen, so their children, or grand-children, can be racing their carbon-fueled FV with 1600cc ACVW engine, spec intake manifold, steering rack, ball-joints, etc?

How about 15 years?
Ten years?

Perhaps electric powered carts, scooters, or buggies, that fit on our roof racks, or light trailers, at multi-purpose developed facilities, but 4.5 mile tracks through green space and farm land. Really? I think some perspective is required, and reforming our current classes is not the best use of our current time and energy. Lets enjoy and celebrate FV (FF and FC) for as long as we can! I would suggest that a committee to get the current version of FV to its 70th birthday would be a viable objective.

[John Nesbitt]

Does anybody believe, that in 20 years, they will be driving their carbon-fueled RV to a track like Watkins Glen, so their children, or grand-children, can be racing their carbon-fueled FV with 1600cc ACVW engine, spec intake manifold, steering rack, ball-joints, etc?

...

In 1960, did anybody expect FV to be around still in 2021?

[E1pix]

I’ll use an example from karting...

In 2002, a friend had a good plan to somewhat monopolize upon what he saw as an imminent EPA directive to ban 2-strokes — as had been started with motocross racing. We built a website, and he acquired exclusive US and/or North American distributorships for about eight four-stroke kart motors including Biland, Ariel, Vampire, and others.

It seemed a can’t-fail plan with all the EPA rumblings, now two decades ago.

But we learned there’s a big difference between EPA concerns regarding millions of weekend and racing dirt bikes, and the comparatively-tiny concern of kart racing. And I’d estimate there could well be as many karts as road race cars.

My point is the numbers games come into sharp focus here. Today’s trends towards non-combusting cars and trucks involves legislation to make a real emissions dent on hundreds of millions of cars, and the air quality of cities overrun with them. For better or worse, Club racing is fractions of one percent of that, and Yes, I do think this will take way longer than feared.

On a personal note, we have a 1984 van and do not think it’ll go to the recycler, for simply being a gas engine, for decades. We’ll have to pay a lot for gas, sure, and maybe a carbon tax, but forcing entire populations to abandon their toys would not go over well and to me is hopefully longer away than not.

Per the thread, if my prior post left any doubt, I fully agree with not screwing with FV rules. Harder tires, Yes, that to me is the biggest impediment for the weekender to this day — and hurts entries more than almost any other factors.

On country land uses in the future, Yes, that does seem at threat. Like everything else. That broaches the greatest topic of concern for the future, and the one simply never discussed.

[problemchild]

In 1960, did anybody expect FV to be around still in 2021?

Not sure what that has to do with anything.
Who thought Keith Richards would still be around in 2021? And touring!

I think all club racing has challenges that will make survival past another decade very difficult. Just finding fuel may be the determining factor. Fighting a 10 year civil war over steering racks (as what happened with brakes) just seems insane. I think we need to treat all our formula classes from a palliative care perspective. Lets worry about having the best racing we can for 10 years, and not what the class will look like in 20 years. If we do a good job, maybe we stretch it to 12 or 14 years.

Those that are worried about 20 years, should be prototyping Formula EVs.

[Ed Womer]

WOW! who would have thought this thread would start what seems to be a civil rational conversation? I am sorry I thought differently, but I remember the past, a reminder of getting old. Greg has a good point about the possible life of fun toys based on fossil fuels, but I really think their demise might be further in the future than anyone can imagine.

The rate of advancement in electric power and it's application to all forms of movement, is, well, down right impressive! Of course that really has to possibly do with the advancement of accuracy and computer design and manufacturing. Also materials advancement and development has an impressive part to do with it. Just think, everything that has become the norm, is still made from the materials of this planet that have always existed, but no one thought of how to do it!

I do think that electric power will become the dominate form of transportation in a much closer time frame than what anyone would have guessed only a few years ago but I also don't think fossil fuel will just go away. The infrastructure for existence will not disappear over night but will slowly fade. Remember that oil based products might be harder for the average person to acquire, but anyone can make alcohol in their home without any radical technology and any internal combustion engine will run on many types of liquid and gases fuels.

Even at my now advanced age with a hopeful additional 20 years to live I don't see fossil fuels disappear, just not become the dominate fuel source.

Back to the subject, Greg is right, steering racks and disc brakes should have happened 20+ years ago and should be COMMON of the shelf easily available parts. I do not disagree with involvement of the racers, that is not my intent, but remember the goal and always keep every part needed, easy to get and low cost in mind as the driving factor!

Ed

[R. Pare]

How is the supply/demand for front spindles. I can set up and do these again (need to find a new steel foundry, unfortunately), but have no idea what the price will be - I can guarantee that the casting cost has doubled since I last did them 20 years ago!

[Dietmar]

Spindles are plentiful- the carriers by themselves are getting harder to find as the offroad guys weld on them.

Spindle /carrier sets are available for a reasonable price

Dietmar
www.quixoteracing.com

[problemchild]

If Richard, or someone else, is going to do up a run of spindles, they should be done with ears or lugs so that steering arms are bolt on. Whether this requires a rule change or just communication, this is the kind of task that the committee could help with. When I used the ICP spindles, the cost and bother of a second fabrication process was very significant, and I decided to take my chances with used ones after that. I think generic spindles that were ready for bolt-on steering arms would be a better seller, safer with truly no performance advantage.

[veeten]

Arnie Carbaugh at Carbaugh Machine is solving some of our supply issue.
He is now rebuildindgVW mgf. Steering Boxes, refurbishing Axles and spindles.
Save your old VW mfg parts . Check with Arnie before tossing them out.

[jpetillo]

I encourage folks who have not done so to check out the link on the FV Interchange about the new FV Committee. It explains more about the charter, intent and goals of the committee. Applications are due June 7th, and you can send in questions about the committee to find out more, as mentioned in the link.

http://www.formulavee.org/viewtopic....p=34110#p34110

Thanks - John