to PFM or not to PFM

[FastFrog]

Hi Guy's and Gal's

I have been lurking the classifieds here for a little while lookin for a Formula donor to convert into a motion simulator, and although I have yet to find one I recently came across a PFM locally (supposedly race ready) at a price that although is to high to convert it to a sim is still within range for me to buy and try as I have always wanted to drive a open wheel race car. Since i know nothing about racing in RL and even less about the PFM I was hoping you guys could help me with some questions.

1. What is a great price for a (race ready) PFM on new tires and no other extras.
2. Where can I drive it? (been told open wheel is generally not allowed on track days) I'm in Austin, TX if that helps.
3. What is a good price for a used Engine and Trans on one of these? (in case I don't like the real thing and decide to convert to sim)

[Fred Michael]

I would say that the PFM is not a starter car for someone with no experience
Price for a race ready car with no spares about 35k minimum but you will need some spares
Can't answer on the track days but open wheel is not encouraged at most track days for safety reasons. Closed wheel guys will absolutely not be able to see you and you WILL be faster than they are if you have the same amount of talent
Engine and gearbox are worth 10-20k depending on condition
DO NOT TURN AN OPERATIONAL CAR INTO A SIM
If you want to build a sim out of a real car find a damaged tub of tube frame

[BTennessen]

If you want a chassis to turn into a sim post in one of the WTB sections and you'll likely have a few to choose from. I'm doing similar and found a cheap chassis a couple hours away. No reason to take a good chassis out of circulation when there's wrecked ones available.

You could probably reach out to anyone from my previous thread - https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...imulator-build

[FastFrog]

Thanks guys,

If I do buy it what are the things I should check on the car?

[John Nesbitt]

Thanks guys,

If I do buy it what are the things I should check on the car?

If you are new to this, the best thing you can do would be to have a reputable race prep shop inspect the car for you. Buy what you inspect, not what you expect.

Perhaps other, local members could offer suggestions on a shop.

It would very likely be the best money you ever spend in racing.

[Buc01]

Thanks guys,

If I do buy it what are the things I should check on the car?

I know it is a LONG drive. But, one place you will be able to race and is "reasonably close" is the COMMA series at Hallett in Oklahoma. There are usually several PFM show up for the the dual race weekends and wide range of talent. You will find someone to to race with that is at your pace.

http://www.hallettracing.net/events/comma/

I am not a PFM or FM person, but I believe:

Moses
moses@mosessmith.com

Is the person you need to contact.

Aaron

[TimH]

To repeat Fred's comment, PFM is a LOT of car for a starter. The first few spins and offs could easily discourage you from ever really learning how to drive (unless you are so slow that you decide you'll never learn). Start with something more forgiving. And less costly to repair.

[FastFrog]

I know it is a LONG drive. But, one place you will be able to race and is "reasonably close" is the COMMA series at Hallett in Oklahoma. There are usually several PFM show up for the the dual race weekends and wide range of talent. You will find someone to to race with that is at your pace.

http://www.hallettracing.net/events/comma/

I am not a PFM or FM person, but I believe:

Moses
moses@mosessmith.com

Is the person you need to contact.

Aaron

very cool thank you

[FastFrog]

To repeat Fred's comment, PFM is a LOT of car for a starter. The first few spins and offs could easily discourage you from ever really learning how to drive (unless you are so slow that you decide you'll never learn). Start with something more forgiving. And less costly to repair.

Im not really looking to "Race" anyone but myself even in the sim I tend to do more time trial than races. I just enjoy the activity I did Motcross and Trails for years and newer really got good at it but still enjoy the activity. Now granted this might ruin the sim experience for me but Im willing to risk that.

[TimH]

Im not really looking to "Race" anyone but myself

That's what I thought for myself. Then my brother bought a car.

Seriously, though, these cars (could maybe said of most cars) only become serious fun when you start pushing the limits, and the limits are so high and sharp on a PFM that a beginner will spend a discouraging and costly amount of time failing to recover from mistakes. Racing or not, if you just toodle around at 70% of the car's capacity you're not getting even 10% of the pleasure.

"Better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." There's deep truth in that saying. Even I, who usually race a slow car slow, can understand it. Even slow racing, though, brings a whole 'nother dimension...

BTW, check out my avatar photo, from my first day in my first FF. Now THAT was fun.

[Adriancnh]

Hell, even a Formula Ford can be too much car for a beginner with no experience, nevermind a PFM. I'm new here so not sure if this is sacrilege but buy a cheap track ready Miata and do a couple track days before you decide to get into open wheel.

[FastFrog]

BTW, check out my avatar photo, from my first day in my first FF. Now THAT was fun.

very nice, that's part of the fun right?

[Jamesbe]

Would you start playing football for the first time on a college team headed to the finals? That's kind of like jumping in a PFM as your first time on track.

It was feeder series to IndyCar

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[Lotus7]

I fear the original poster is reading the answers but perhaps not hearing them.

A PFM is too much car for a first time open-wheel on track. Both for yourself, and more importantly, those around you.

[lowside67]

I fear the original poster is reading the answers but perhaps not hearing them.

A PFM is too much car for a first time open-wheel on track. Both for yourself, and more importantly, those around you.

100% this. Dude is not listening.

The idea of "I wanted to go sim racing... actually maybe I should just do some track days" and a nearly Formula Atlantic speed car is an awful combination.

-Mark

[FastFrog]

I fear the original poster is reading the answers but perhaps not hearing them.

A PFM is too much car for a first time open-wheel on track. Both for yourself, and more importantly, those around you.

lol, its not that he isn't reading them, he does and really values the answer to his questions.

What you are talking about isn't answers to any of the questions posted these are additional opinions offered and although I appreciate them its not what I was asking, simply because its a given, I already know this to be true but that wont deter me, if I let little things like I don't know how or other people thinking I cant or shouldn't deter me then I wouldn't have accomplished half I have in life or had anywhere close to the fun and I'm sure that is true for at least half the posters above

If I had a chance to hop in a F1 car and run around the Nürburgring, you can bet your rear end that Id hop in quicker then you can pronounce "Nurbirgrog" and I think most here would do the same even though their current skill level is prob as far away from being able to handle that than I am currently from a PFM.

[FastFrog]

Would you start playing football for the first time on a college team headed to the finals? That's kind of like jumping in a PFM as your first time on track.

It was feeder series to IndyCar

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

no I have about 0 interest in that sport on or off the field but I would jump pretty much into any race car if given the chance because I am curious about that. would you not?

[Kazis31]

OK.
I guess you.re missing the point.
Guys are trying to keep you from getting hurt.
All pro level formula cars have speed window you have to be in.
If too slow car will be cold ,hard to drive and low grip,therefore crashes may occur.

P.S.
Like they said in Top Gun
Don't let your Ego write checks your body can;t cash.

Or.
Don't confuse your intentions with your capabilities.


P.S.
Years back i sold my PFM and got FE to get more seat time in slower spec car for that very reason.

no need to get hurt to stroke your ego.

[FastFrog]

OK.
I guess you.re missing the point.
Guys are trying to keep you from getting hurt.
All pro level formula cars have speed window you have to be in.
If too slow car will be cold ,hard to drive and low grip,therefore crashes may occur.

P.S.
Like they said in Top Gun
Don't let your Ego write checks your body can;t cash.

Or.
Don't confuse your intentions with your capabilities.


P.S.
Years back i sold my PFM and got FE to get more seat time in slower spec car for that very reason.

no need to get hurt to stroke your ego.

No I get that point but I think you and others may also be missing the point that I'm not trying to maximize seat time or become a race car driver I want to "try" something as close to a F1 as possible as I feel that experience will enhance my hobby which is SimRacing I am not in any way shape or form planning on replacing that hobby with this cause well they have very little in common and I certainly cant enjoy a delicious cup of espresso while running laps at road America in a real race car

Is it dangerous, yes I'm sure it is but I'm also a grown man (borderline old fart) and can make my own decisions on what is appropriate danger for me.

I can relate to you moving from the PFM to FE to improve your skills in something more manageable I did the same years ago when I moved down a Motocross class cause I enjoyed it more even if I wasn't as fast on the smaller bikes.

[lowside67]

No I get that point but I think you and others may also be missing the point that I'm not trying to maximize seat time or become a race car driver I want to "try" something as close to a F1 as possible as I feel that experience will enhance my hobby which is SimRacing I am not in any way shape or form planning on replacing that hobby with this cause well they have very little in common and I certainly cant enjoy a delicious cup of espresso while running laps at road America in a real race car

Is it dangerous, yes I'm sure it is but I'm also a grown man (borderline old fart) and can make my own decisions on what is appropriate danger for me.

I can relate to you moving from the PFM to FE to improve your skills in something more manageable I did the same years ago when I moved down a Motocross class cause I enjoyed it more even if I wasn't as fast on the smaller bikes.

I think if the desire is for more of a one-off experience of what the G-forces, etc feel like it would make a lot more sense to go in the direction of a race school or arrive and drive experience. In my experience, there is no such thing as a good deal on a race ready car, and frankly in an open wheel like this, the mechanical condition of the car is literally your life. The complexity of a car like a PFM requires a decent selection of specific tools to even do basic maintenance which alone are serious money.

Genuinely, I am not trying to be elitist or a snob and saying you don't have what it takes to drive one of these. What I (and others) are saying is that I don't get the impression that you are setting yourself up for success by making a jump from simulators to trying a car on track at this level based on thinking you are getting a good deal on a car. I just think you're in for a world of disappointment at worst as it's not the kind of car you can just roll out of the trailer, turn the key, and go drive it. You need to be prepared for both the mechanical side and the driving side and it sounds (I could be wrong) that both are huge steps over where you are at now.

Best of luck in your endeavours.

-Mark

[TedV]

There are Sim racing to real car stories. I wonder if the Vomit Comet effect is more pronounced because of Rd Atlanta? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aut...-road-atlanta/

[Kazis31]

I saw that video.
poor guy ,he also comes from Finland and 100 degree temps are scary for him

[Garey Guzman]

No I get that point but I think you and others may also be missing the point that I'm not trying to maximize seat time or become a race car driver I want to "try" something as close to a F1 as possible as I feel that experience will enhance my hobby which is SimRacing I am not in any way shape or form planning on replacing that hobby with this cause well they have very little in common and I certainly cant enjoy a delicious cup of espresso while running laps at road America in a real race car

Is it dangerous, yes I'm sure it is but I'm also a grown man (borderline old fart) and can make my own decisions on what is appropriate danger for me.

I can relate to you moving from the PFM to FE to improve your skills in something more manageable I did the same years ago when I moved down a Motocross class cause I enjoyed it more even if I wasn't as fast on the smaller bikes.

Based on all that, it would seem to make more sense to go to a racing school. No need to buy a car, learn how to operate it, prepare it for the track, get supplies, figure out what to check between sessions, etc. Just do a weekend school and see what you think. Plus, real life racing drivers will instruct you, likely helping you with your hobby.

[mikey]

1. What is a great price for a (race ready) PFM on new tires and no other extras. $35K
2. Where can I drive it? (been told open wheel is generally not allowed on track days) I'm in Austin, TX if that helps. COTA or anywhere you want really. Just have to find the right group or rent the track yourself
3. What is a good price for a used Engine and Trans on one of these? $15K combined

Note: none of the above questions are important to the adventures you seek.

[Fred Michael]

There are Sim racing to real car stories. I wonder if the Vomit Comet effect is more pronounced because of Rd Atlanta? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aut...-road-atlanta/

I was at this test.
Huttu actually did fairly well for someone with absolutely no experience, BUT and this is important. He had a very professional race team there as support. The car was prepared as if we were taking it to a Championship race. It came with FULL engineering support for both the car and engine as well as the tires. There was full coaching at his disposal as well.
To his credit, when he started to feel poorly he had enough awareness to pull off and get out before he puked on track and put himself in a very bad situation.
This was also done at a private test with only him and two other cars in attendance. It would have been far, far more dangerous for all if this was at a track day with other cars around dividing his attention.
My advise is go take a formula car school or I believe that there is a place in Europe that will let you drive a de-tuned F1 car

[FastFrog]

I think if the desire is for more of a one-off experience of what the G-forces, etc feel like it would make a lot more sense to go in the direction of a race school or arrive and drive experience. In my experience, there is no such thing as a good deal on a race ready car, and frankly in an open wheel like this, the mechanical condition of the car is literally your life. The complexity of a car like a PFM requires a decent selection of specific tools to even do basic maintenance which alone are serious money.

Genuinely, I am not trying to be elitist or a snob and saying you don't have what it takes to drive one of these. What I (and others) are saying is that I don't get the impression that you are setting yourself up for success by making a jump from simulators to trying a car on track at this level based on thinking you are getting a good deal on a car. I just think you're in for a world of disappointment at worst as it's not the kind of car you can just roll out of the trailer, turn the key, and go drive it. You need to be prepared for both the mechanical side and the driving side and it sounds (I could be wrong) that both are huge steps over where you are at now.

Best of luck in your endeavours.

-Mark

That's good advice, I have a couple of follow up questions if thats cool.

1. Do you know of any open wheel racing schools?
2. Although its decreasingly likely that ill buy the car, In case my inner loony takes over can I find a list of the specialized maintenance tools somewhere?

[FastFrog]

There are Sim racing to real car stories. I wonder if the Vomit Comet effect is more pronounced because of Rd Atlanta? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aut...-road-atlanta/

If that story is to be believed then practice in a sim will make you competent in the car it just wont help you get physically in shape. would love to find a video of that I'm sure its pretty funny.

[FastFrog]

1. What is a great price for a (race ready) PFM on new tires and no other extras. $35K
2. Where can I drive it? (been told open wheel is generally not allowed on track days) I'm in Austin, TX if that helps. COTA or anywhere you want really. Just have to find the right group or rent the track yourself
3. What is a good price for a used Engine and Trans on one of these? $15K combined

Note: none of the above questions are important to the adventures you seek.

thank you for your wisdom Mike

[FastFrog]

I was at this test.
Huttu actually did fairly well for someone with absolutely no experience, BUT and this is important. He had a very professional race team there as support. The car was prepared as if we were taking it to a Championship race. It came with FULL engineering support for both the car and engine as well as the tires. There was full coaching at his disposal as well.
To his credit, when he started to feel poorly he had enough awareness to pull off and get out before he puked on track and put himself in a very bad situation.
This was also done at a private test with only him and two other cars in attendance. It would have been far, far more dangerous for all if this was at a track day with other cars around dividing his attention.
My advise is go take a formula car school or I believe that there is a place in Europe that will let you drive a de-tuned F1 car

There are also private track clubs around, the price is hard to justify for a couple of test runs though. would prob have to drive it regularly for a full season to justify the cost but its a possibility.

[FastFrog]

Based on all that, it would seem to make more sense to go to a racing school. No need to buy a car, learn how to operate it, prepare it for the track, get supplies, figure out what to check between sessions, etc. Just do a weekend school and see what you think. Plus, real life racing drivers will instruct you, likely helping you with your hobby.

that's good feedback, do you by chance know of any open wheel racing schools?

[mikey]

thank you for your wisdom Mike

may I suggest contacting Dean Turnbaugh of this forum? He has some open cockpit sports racers you can do an arrive and drive at COTA.

Or the suggestion to go to a school or even just an experience event will ensure you have the necessary support to be safe and have fun.

there are "formula car experiences" at several locations.
https://www.ptcdriving.com/
https://theformulaexperience.com
https://www.formulaexperiences.com/
https://www.allenbergracingschools.com

or go overseas and do the F3000 experience at Abu Dhabi

but also consider a shifter kart could wear your butt out in a day and is the cheapest way to experience 2G cornering

[FastFrog]

may I suggest contacting Dean Turnbaugh of this forum? He has some open cockpit sports racers you can do an arrive and drive at COTA.

Or the suggestion to go to a school or even just an experience event will ensure you have the necessary support to be safe and have fun.

there are "formula car experiences" at several locations.
https://www.ptcdriving.com/
https://theformulaexperience.com
https://www.formulaexperiences.com/
https://www.allenbergracingschools.com

or go overseas and do the F3000 experience at Abu Dhabi

but also consider a shifter kart could wear your butt out in a day and is the cheapest way to experience 2G cornering

Thank you, Ill take a look at those. Might just be a reason for me to go back to the Emirates

[TimH]

If I had a chance to hop in a F1 car and run around the Nürburgring, you can bet your rear end that Id hop in quicker then you can pronounce "Nurbirgrog" and I think most here would do the same even though their current skill level is prob as far away from being able to handle that than I am currently from a PFM.

Actually, most of us here know better than to try such a thing. There are a FEW of us who might be able to get out of the pits without spinning or stalling, but I doubt any could do much more in safety. And we're talking some seriously talented drivers on this forum.

Now a really old vintage F1 might be doable, but still hardly safe at any kind of speed.

Late edit:
I see you're taking the school advice seriously. Good on ya. I predict huge fun.

[FastFrog]

Now a really old vintage F1 might be doable, but still hardly safe at any kind of speed.

Despite the Road Atlanta story above and others similar I found on YouTube today when trying to find that story, Sims probably aren't an accurate representation, at least not always but I will say that the classic F1 cars are a lot harder to handle than the modern ones In most of the sims for Example the Lotus 49 is probably the most difficult car I have run in iRacing or at the very least on par with the Porsche 919 for very different reasons.

Anyway I have been playing with the PFM in iRacing the last couple of days and I find it trickier than many other open wheel cars I have run. does anyone here also run sims?

[TimH]

They detune it, add ABS and traction control, and with a lot of training they'll let you take it out for three laps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE7mgfwd6M8

[FastFrog]

I found the Huttu YouTube vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yJBXcxRTZY

That must have been really rough on the poor kid, I moved to Atlanta from Iceland a few years before that, one of my first weekends in Atlanta it was a 110 and I had a rough time breathing much less drive a racecar.

When looking for it i also found this video of another Sim Racing kid that got to try the Renault Formula 2.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeDRqV519rY

very cool stuff but lets face it those kids are really good at sim racing and I'm not, Im more like that senior citizen that drives down your highway at 40mph

In my search I did also find a racing school relatively close that uses FM and PFM cars so that might be something ill check out come spring.

[Kazis31]

Moses Smith.
Look him up online.
PFM and FM guy in Texas.

good guy to deal with honest and highly knowledgeable.

[Kazis31]

Fort Worth i think.

[douglap1]

Try the Bertil Roos racing school:

https://racenow.com/about-us/

A couple of years ago, I raced with a guy who had just done a 3 day school with these folks, and he wasn't bad at all.

One of the greatest surprises that most people have when they start out racing is how much work it is to go racing.

It takes a huge commitment of time and effort to go racing on your own. This is not something you want to try to do on your own to see if you will like it, and as others have said, definitely not in a PFM car.