New Car Weights?

[Latebraker]

Came across an article on apex Aug 08 Pinto/Zetec engine comparison done by Quicksilver and elite. What is really interesting is that at the time Zetec was struggling against the Pinto that is 12 yrs ago. What makes it even more interesting to day is that Pinto owners have to spend thousands of dollars for a very small gain in power where as the Zetec owner only have to do a little download or change a $10 restrictor to gain HP or move the Torque curve around.
Quicksilver and Elite did back to back Dyno tests on the Pinto Iron head versus Aluminum head they only saw a 2HP gain. So for 2HP Pinto owners had to spend $5K plus. Zetec has had 12yrs to improve Blueprinting. Now Pinto owners have to spend thousands more to change the power curve and gain a couple more HP. What also find amazing is that the Pinto is allowed a new rod and piston kit that has to be a std bore adding a another thousand dollars to the rebuild when we could have bought the very same long rod kit from Racer Walsh in a 10 over which would have no power and vantage and saved a lot of money and blocks.
I have questioned the Pinto flywheel weight so I call Quicksilver to get an answer to why the Zetec runs a lighter flywheel than a Pinto and was floored as to the reason. The reason for the Pinto having a heavier flywheel was the flywheel could only be safely machined to no less than 10lbs and save Pinto owners from buying a new flywheel that may cost 3-4 hundred dollars which would be the cheapest way for a Pinto to again a little of the corner squirt.
Seem extremely unfair that over the years the Zetec has been helped along at no huge expense just a download of a new map and replacement restrictor and way less cost between rebuilds. So to say Pinto owners don't spend as much as Zetec owners and all the do is complain is total BS.
Just my 2 cents
Alan

[J Weida]

"Blueprinting is not legal"
Is it being done?

[eospeed]

Came across an article on apex Aug 08 Pinto/Zetec engine comparison done by Quicksilver and elite. What is really interesting is that at the time Zetec was struggling against the Pinto that is 12 yrs ago. What makes it even more interesting to day is that Pinto owners have to spend thousands of dollars for a very small gain in power where as the Zetec owner only have to do a little download or change a $10 restrictor to gain HP or move the Torque curve around.
Quicksilver and Elite did back to back Dyno tests on the Pinto Iron head versus Aluminum head they only saw a 2HP gain. So for 2HP Pinto owners had to spend $5K plus. Zetec has had 12yrs to improve Blueprinting. Now Pinto owners have to spend thousands more to change the power curve and gain a couple more HP. What also find amazing is that the Pinto is allowed a new rod and piston kit that has to be a std bore adding a another thousand dollars to the rebuild when we could have bought the very same long rod kit from Racer Walsh in a 10 over which would have no power and vantage and saved a lot of money and blocks.
I have questioned the Pinto flywheel weight so I call Quicksilver to get an answer to why the Zetec runs a lighter flywheel than a Pinto and was floored as to the reason. The reason for the Pinto having a heavier flywheel was the flywheel could only be safely machined to no less than 10lbs and save Pinto owners from buying a new flywheel that may cost 3-4 hundred dollars which would be the cheapest way for a Pinto to again a little of the corner squirt.
Seem extremely unfair that over the years the Zetec has been helped along at no huge expense just a download of a new map and replacement restrictor and way less cost between rebuilds. So to say Pinto owners don't spend as much as Zetec owners and all the do is complain is total BS.
Just my 2 cents
Alan

Being that alot of pinto engines have had the deck cut over .080 the off the shelf pistons from the supplier you mentioned would not work for everyone. Thats why a new piston was made. I did ask for overbore and was turned down.

[Latebraker]

"Blueprinting is not legal"
Is it being done?

Yes

[J Weida]

So if "Blueprinting is being done"
Is that why we see the zetec increase in power since 2012.

[eospeed]

So if "Blueprinting is being done"
Is that why we see the zetec increase in power since 2012.

In 2013 the zetecs went to a pump fuel map that made more HP. That map was adopted by the club later.

Curious how you rebuild an engine without blueprinting?The way it is defined as related to building engines its not possible to properly rebuild one without that involved. As soon as you measure and change a clearance that is blueprinted.

[recaryob]

Being that alot of pinto engines have had the deck cut over .080 the off the shelf pistons from the supplier you mentioned would not work for everyone. Thats why a new piston was made. I did ask for overbore and was turned down.

I was told by a couple of builders that even the new legal long rod combo required a block that hadnt been decked to the "normal practice of the previous pistons. That all of the existing prepped FC blocks were pretty much junk for the new long rod combo.

Is this not true?

[eospeed]

I was told by a couple of builders that even the new legal long rod combo required a block that hadnt been decked to the "normal practice of the previous pistons. That all of the existing prepped FC blocks were pretty much junk for the new long rod combo.

Is this not true?

Not true at all we have 3 LR jobs in here now with block heights that vary .060. The new piston has enough crown to run a block that is .100 short. I should add to at QS we never used to deck blocks unless we had a surface issue. You can make great power at full deck height.

[Rick Kirchner]

Alan - I had a pretty good Iron head pinto, not one of the great ones, but with the standard cam and J&E pistons it made 145. With the Aluminum head and CP pistons - 154 - and it's a bunch lighter.

[Latebraker]

Alan - I had a pretty good Iron head pinto, not one of the great ones, but with the standard cam and J&E pistons it made 145. With the Aluminum head and CP pistons - 154 - and it's a bunch lighter.

Rick, the iron head could not have been that good because both Quicksilver and Elite did back to back tests, with a top iron head against an aluminum head and both claim around 2hp. I also had a good talk with Fast Forward who went to the trouble to make the heads, that SCCA who approved and gave him the go ahead. SCCA then turned around and introduce a new cam for the iron head killing the aluminum head because you have to run a stock cam, and not allowed to run the uprated cam and no porting of the head. Fast Forward said there wasn't enough gain to justify the additional expense of $4000 for a bare head, thus killing the sale of the aluminum head which he no long makes.
The only way you can see a 9hp gain is by working the head and installing the uprated cam and that may be tuff. So unless someone cheats and works the head and installs the uprated cam there isn't enough benefit in power other than weight loss of 25lbs at $5000 versus 20lbs added to a Zetec for $5-$10.
So the reality is Pinto owners have to spend $10K to upgrade the engine while Zetec owners can spend the $10K in car prep and handling! sounds pretty fair to me!

[Rick Kirchner]

Alan, as Froggie once referred to the rules applying to the top few guys on the grid.....

I had a good head, not a great one. I've seen a lot of dyno sheets, and 145-ish was pretty common. There are a few heads out there, and I've heard two stories about them - made from a different and hard to find casting, or they were made from heads with an imperfection (as defined by the original specification) that allowed better flow when properly ported. Regardless, Doug copied the best head he could find to get the aluminum design, and if you look at one, it doesn't look like any CNC'd aluminum head you'll find elsewhere - because it's a copy of a cast head. The power difference you describe is between a super iron head and the aluminum head.

Supposedly the CPs get you one or two. Don't have anything to compare it to and doubt if one or two is really significant on a single sample if I did.

More was done to kill the aluminum head than just the uprated cam.

So please don't tell me that a reputable and respected builder here cheated and worked the head, or installed the uprated cam that I somehow didn't pay for, or didn't know how to run his dyno, or some other reason. I even had to have the head skimmed a tad after a blown head gasket and warpage, and cc'd it and it was still within spec. The head has anti-tamper features in it so it's pretty easy to tell.

[problemchild]

So the reality is Pinto owners have to spend $10K to upgrade the engine while Zetec owners can spend the $10K in car prep and handling! sounds pretty fair to me!

No one has to spend anything.
If someone wants to win, then buy a newer car. It will come with a newer engine, that was allowed specifically to provide the same power but with less maintenance and more reliability. It is called progress. In a just world, the newer cars would be worth 5 times what an older car is worth. With the current marketplace, they are only worth double. That means that people can buy older cars and be reasonably competitive with the newer cars. If they want to win, then they need to spend a lot more money on their entire car, including engine. The class's strong point is that people can still have "budget' efforts with older cars with a reasonable level of competitiveness.

If I can buy a newer nicer house for $200K, and I choose to spend $250K to remodel my $50K older house into a $150K valued house, then I am doing it because I have a passion for my current house. That does not mean that the system is going to declare my house equal, or handicap the real estate market, so my house is of equal value. These things don't happen in the real world. But perhaps instead of remodeling my hose for $250K, I update it for $50k, and have a nice life living in the house I like.

[J Weida]

I thought people wanted to make the pinto more competitive? So there would be more cars to race with. From this discussion, I am believe that is not what the top teams want. If you have a pinto and want a place to race with more cars look to the GLC series.

[problemchild]

I thought people wanted to make the pinto more competitive? So there would be more cars to race with. From this discussion, I am believe that is not what the top teams want. If you have a pinto and want a place to race with more cars look to the GLC series.

I think everyone wants the Pinto engines to be competitive with Zetec engines. Some people, myself included, don't want Pinto engines to be better than Zetec engines so that older cars being run with smaller budgets, are equal to newer cars being run with bigger budgets. Clearly, others are trying to balance car performance. Racing in the GLC series is a good option for budget racers regardless of your outlook on engine parity. Updating cars and engines to competitive status is not required to enjoy racing in FC.

[Rick Kirchner]

Some people, myself included, don't want Pinto engines to be better than Zetec engines so that older cars being run with smaller budgets, are equal to newer cars being run with bigger budgets.

Well here's some of the BS we keep hearing about. Isn't the issue really someone putting a top flight pinto into a RF05 or DP08 and going for it? But that's not happening. it's the boogyman that's used to create a certain level of fear among Zetec owners.

But really, if we are talking parity, isn't this is what should be happening? There are still a bunch of late model pinto cars out there. There are still guys that need a Zetec refreshed and are at a decision point.

So regardless of what you say, the bottom line is that the juice isn't worth the squeeze, or it would happen.

[problemchild]

...... the bottom line is that the juice isn't worth the squeeze, or it would happen.

Exactly. I agree. There are people building Pintos to the latest rules, and with decent cars, so we will get to see how competitive they can be.

[Latebraker]

No one has to spend anything.
If someone wants to win, then buy a newer car. It will come with a newer engine, that was allowed specifically to provide the same power but with less maintenance and more reliability. It is called progress. In a just world, the newer cars would be worth 5 times what an older car is worth. With the current marketplace, they are only worth double. That means that people can buy older cars and be reasonably competitive with the newer cars. If they want to win, then they need to spend a lot more money on their entire car, including engine. The class's strong point is that people can still have "budget' efforts with older cars with a reasonable level of competitiveness.

If I can buy a newer nicer house for $200K, and I choose to spend $250K to remodel my $50K older house into a $150K valued house, then I am doing it because I have a passion for my current house. That does not mean that the system is going to declare my house equal, or handicap the real estate market, so my house is of equal value. These things don't happen in the real world. But perhaps instead of remodeling my hose for $250K, I update it for $50k, and have a nice life living in the house I like.

No ONE has to spend anything? Interesting you didn't comment on the comparison in cost to make power Pinto versus Zetec?

I like the house comparison pretty much covers what Pinto engine owners deal with trying to keep cars on the track. Looks like more and more older cars will keep collecting dust because there isn't any real change to support the older engines other than making it more expense than the newer engines. This is the reason open wheel is dying, just look at the numbers in North America. If SCCA was serious about getting more entries split the class A&B like they do in some countries with Formula Ford. Just because your Budget is bigger than the next guy doesn't make you fast in some cases it just means your fast in a straight line.

[Peter Olivola]

No ONE has to spend anything? Interesting you didn't comment on the comparison in cost to make power Pinto versus Zetec?

I like the house comparison pretty much covers what Pinto engine owners deal with trying to keep cars on the track. Looks like more and more older cars will keep collecting dust because there isn't any real change to support the older engines other than making it more expense than the newer engines. This is the reason open wheel is dying, just look at the numbers in North America. If SCCA was serious about getting more entries split the class A&B like they do in some countries with Formula Ford. Just because your Budget is bigger than the next guy doesn't make you fast in some cases it just means your fast in a straight line.

Do you run SCCA Majors? Are you looking to go to the Runoffs? It sounds more like you need to convince the local SCCA Region to adopt an additional regional class, which only involves the National Office and rules making regime to the extent that the region has to register the class.

[problemchild]

No ONE has to spend anything? Interesting you didn't comment on the comparison in cost to make power Pinto versus Zetec?

I like the house comparison pretty much covers what Pinto engine owners deal with trying to keep cars on the track. Looks like more and more older cars will keep collecting dust because there isn't any real change to support the older engines other than making it more expense than the newer engines. This is the reason open wheel is dying, just look at the numbers in North America. If SCCA was serious about getting more entries split the class A&B like they do in some countries with Formula Ford. Just because your Budget is bigger than the next guy doesn't make you fast in some cases it just means your fast in a straight line.

I did not mention engines because I am not trying to equalize 30 year old cars with 8 year old cars by giving the older cars more power than the newer cars, which some engine builders say we are already doing. I realize you don't agree with that opinion so there seems no need to argue about it. I choose to celebrate that people can buy a nice used older car for $15K and come out and run within a second or two of the elite cars that have 5 or 6X that investment. Just like living in an older home that you love and can afford, I think our Formula classes do a really great job of letting older cars remain competitive. Just as I ran my 83 Reynard in Pro F1600 races, I think that people should take their older cars racing and enjoy everything the class has to offer.

[hdsporty1988]

I did not mention engines because I am not trying to equalize 30 year old cars with 8 year old cars by giving the older cars more power than the newer cars, which some engine builders say we are already doing. I realize you don't agree with that opinion so there seems no need to argue about it. I choose to celebrate that people can buy a nice used older car for $15K and come out and run within a second or two of the elite cars that have 5 or 6X that investment. Just like living in an older home that you love and can afford, I think our Formula classes do a really great job of letting older cars remain competitive. Just as I ran my 83 Reynard in Pro F1600 races, I think that people should take their older cars racing and enjoy everything the class has to offer.

I totally agree! Track=fun, sitting in the garage - not so much!

[rikgray]

We have all seen SCCA tinker with the rules, forever.

In a spec class you should have sealed engines. Otherwise

If you are setting minimum weights then you should be setting maximum horsepower.
Dyno and weigh every car.

The SCCA rule book is over 700 pages. Many pages of excruciating, and thus expensive, engine building detail. Just to try to equalize the cars.

[Peter Olivola]

We have all seen SCCA tinker with the rules, forever.

In a spec class you should have sealed engines. Otherwise

If you are setting minimum weights then you should be setting maximum horsepower.
Dyno and weigh every car.

The SCCA rule book is over 700 pages. Many pages of excruciating, and thus expensive, engine building detail. Just to try to equalize the cars.

Easy to say. Not so easy to do. How about a fully fleshed out proposal to implement that. Including costs.

[John Nesbitt]

...

If you are setting minimum weights then you should be setting maximum horsepower.
Dyno and weigh every car.

...

The big limitation on dyno'ing is variation across rigs. A car that yields X hp at dyno 1 may yield X+/- at another.

I have some experience with dyno'ing cars for a MARRS class. It started out with three dynos, but people quickly figured out which one gave the 'best' result. Then folks started gaming the machine (special oil etc. etc. etc.) Which triggered an ever-more-elaborate set of rules and costs) around the process. Then rumors started circulating that certain cars were receiving favored treatment by the dyno shop (which had cars in the class). And so on, and so on.

What it boils down to is, if you plan to enforce an hp limit via dyno, you are pretty much tied to one rig. That is fine for a series/class that is centered on one track. However, it does not readily scale to a Division-wide or Club-wide class.

If you wanted to limit hp with minimal fuss, maybe a restrictor plate? But that's a whole 'nother flame war.

[problemchild]

As long as people with 40-year old cars, run on a budget, prepared by themselves, are parking their FC cars because their programs are not competitive with professionally prepared 10-year old cars with hotshot drivers, engineers, coaches, etc ............ then no discussion about engines or rules will make any difference. These cars require having "programs" in place to run at the front and win. Instead, celebrate that you can take your 30-40 year old car, bring your buddy for crew, and have a class to run in on a reasonable budget.

Regardless of how old your car is, or what type of engine used, have fun improving your driving and developing your program!