What do we do if Honda is getting out of the game?

[reidhazelton]

There is a lot of revisionist history going on here. I don't know why I am even bothering.

One - Ford did not abandoned FF. SCCA abandoned Ford. When Europe switched over to the first Duratec decades ago, SCCA declined to follow suit when Ford approached SCCA. Why would Ford keep supporting the Kent when their FF program is centered on the current Duratec engine? I don't expect them to support an obsolete OE engine any more than I expect Honda to support the Fit engine for infinity.

Two - it most certainly was not "a few guys at HPD." I talked to those three guys at the Runoffs when they had the DB1 at Road America for the first time. They claimed they were just a few dudes who happened to work for HPD and love FF. Yeah, right. Those three guys invested hundreds of thousands of dollars of their own money in design, casting molds, ECU development, and R&D for the whole package? Do you think HPD/Honda just gave them a few hundred grand or more just to go have fun with an FF? If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you. That was 100% a HPD/Honda backed program from the jump and there is nothing wrong with that.

Third - HPD/Honda only got into FF because they wanted to create their own "Road to Indy" type ladder program as Mazda had. I spoke with John Doonen at the Runoffs the year the DB1 came out and he told me Honda had approached Mazda about some tips on how to do it. Mazda was happy to help without giving away all the "secrets." When that ladder system showed it was not going to pan out, HPD stayed with the FF/Fit program. I don't recall when they gave up on the ladder deal, but it was years ago. For HPD to keep going with support for the Fit package was well beyond what I would have expected them to do.

Do I blame Honda for getting out? Absolutely not. They can do what they want. They have no obligation to spend money on a horrible ROI for a hundred or so club racers. They had a great support system while they were involved and that's pretty cool. Manufacturers come and go all the time.

And the usual - I never had a single engine issue in all my time in FF. Not one. The closest thing I ever had to engine troubles was when the head of an insect got passed the air cleaner and got stuck in an air jet. Just because some one was charging $9k for rebuilds does not mean that is what was needed. My most extensive rebuild was with a cam, pistons, all bearings, and some valves and that was just under $5k, shipped both ways. I'd go 10 hours on a head before a $400-$750 refresh, and about 30 hours on a bottom end - and that is with turning it to 7100 at RA routinely. I'm no master mechanic by any means, and I was able to keep the engine happy with nearly zero maintenance at the track aside from a quick valve adjustment here and there. Is the Honda easier? Yes. Was the Kent horrible? No - you just can't go all Ron Popeil and "set it and forget it." You need to take care of it, which was not bad at all.

[problemchild]

There is a lot of revisionist history going on here. I don't know why I am even bothering.

And your version is accurate? HaHa! I certainly lived my version. Others may have had different experiences. That is life. Some people hated high school. Others loved it.

The fact of the matter is that if their was not a market for another engine at that time, then the FIT engine would never have gotten off the ground. It it was absolutely pushed into fruition by a passionate group of FF enthusiasts within HPD who sold it to their management at a time when HPD was looking for new projects.

Projecting the state of FF without the FIT introduction is completely speculative, but considering the decline of the SCCA open wheel classes over the past 15 years, there is no reason to believe that FF would be better than it is now. I think that the overall health of the class, spread over all the different organizations, is very good, and certainly better than any class. That is my opinion. Others may disagree but there is no data to support either argument. All I know is that my first FF experience was horrific and took me years to recover from. I am thankful that the FIT engine attracted me back and kept me involved.

Blaming people that made decisions 15 years ago solves nothing, whether discussing FIT engines, Zetec engines, or a million other topics.

[reidhazelton]

And your version is accurate? HaHa! I certainly lived my version. Others may have had different experiences. That is life. Some people hated high school. Others loved it.

The fact of the matter is that if their was not a market for another engine at that time, then the FIT engine would never have gotten off the ground. It it was absolutely pushed into fruition by a passionate group of FF enthusiasts within HPD who sold it to their management at a time when HPD was looking for new projects.

.

Alternative facts are not facts. Sorry yo. You weren't there. I was. I talked directly to the people involved at HPD about their program when they were trying to gather support. As presented, I was in support of their proposal.

Do you really think three guys who just happened to be at HPD coincidentally happened to love FF, spent all that money to design the fit parts, invest in tooling, castings, ECUs, wiring, etc, all on their own, at the same time Honda was trying to make a ladder system? What an amazing coincidence! Are you calling John Doonan a liar? The rest of your comment is off point.

[billtebbutt]

.........Reid worked in to his argument a Ron Popeil reference. Now THAT"s entertainment! I wonder if I still have dad's Pocket Fisherman lying about.......

Keep well fellas. Racing season is just, sorta, maybe around the corner........

bt

[problemchild]

Do you really think three guys who just happened to be at HPD coincidentally happened to love FF, spent all that money to design the fit parts, invest in tooling, castings, ECUs, wiring, etc, all on their own, at the same time Honda was trying to make a ladder system? What an amazing coincidence! Are you calling John Doonan a liar? The rest of your comment is off point.

Absolutely! I knew some of these people before they worked at HPD and I talked with them before during, and after. They were FF fanatics and were trying to solve problems that they saw, and were able to convince others that it was a good project. Whether some guy from a rival auto company told some club racer a story that differs from that, is of no concern to me. If you are calling my contacts at HPD liars, then that is your business. You don't have to agree with my interpretation of those times, and I don't have to agree with yours. Interpretations of history are just that.

If pointing out that arguing about who was to blame for decisions made 15 years ago is off point, I apologize

If being thankful to HPD for their contribution to the class is off point, then I apologize for that too..

[reidhazelton]

Absolutely! I knew some of these people before they worked at HPD and I talked with them before during, and after. They were FF fanatics and were trying to solve problems that they saw, and were able to convince others that it was a good project. Whether some guy from a rival auto company told some club racer a story that differs from that, is of no concern to me. If you are calling my contacts at HPD liars, then that is your business. You don't have to agree with my interpretation of those times, and I don't have to agree with yours. Interpretations of history are just that. .

And these HPD guys went rogue on their own, spent a couple hundred thousand dollars their own money using Honda IP, with no backing form HPD? Right. What a wild coincidence they just happened to do it at the same time Honda was making a racing ladder. What fortuitous timing on their part that happened after they invested so much in a car that had no place to race! I also spoke with the managers of HPD and they confirmed the larger company's interest in forming a ladder. If they did not want a ladder system, there is no way the Fit ever would have happened.

[Robins Ken]

.........Reid worked in to his argument a Ron Popeil reference. Now THAT"s entertainment! I wonder if I still have dad's Pocket Fisherman lying about.......

Keep well fellas. Racing season is just, sorta, maybe around the corner........

bt

This Honda corporate love in has to stop. Racers who want to do F1600 don't really need a free gasket or two. Or a tub of grease or a hat...or an attaboy..... see you at the run offs smirk.....they passed that point way back when Jay and Sandy et al picked up the phone and treated them like a customer/friend.

[problemchild]

And these HPD guys went rogue on their own, spent a couple hundred thousand dollars their own money using Honda IP, with no backing form HPD? Right. What a wild coincidence they just happened to do it at the same time Honda was making a racing ladder. What fortuitous timing on their part that happened after they invested so much in a car that had no place to race! I also spoke with the managers of HPD and they confirmed the larger company's interest in forming a ladder. If they did not want a ladder system, there is no way the Fit ever would have happened.

It was no coincidence. Nobody went rogue. Management embraced their ideas and moved forward as it tied into their grassroots campaign. You are welcome to your opinion.

[fitzmotor]

I have been reading this post, some of the stated facts are relatively accurate, it really was the HPD guys Tom, Marc and Phillip (I almost forgot Phillip) that made it all happen, and no, they did not personally spend the development money required to do the kit, but they spent a ton of time and effort both in selling the idea to Honda and in seeing through the development.

The whole project is a result of the huge effort they put in, it may seem easy to whip up all the needed parts for such a conversion, you would be surprised how many people it took, designers, machinist, fabricators and builders and how many times stuff had to be redesigned after the track testing began.

They did both retire from HPD in 2020 (as I did) I don't think that had any affect on the program support, HPD is just moving on, they are a great company but they are a business, so most things they do are based on business plans that make sense for both the customer and Honda.

[reidhazelton]

I have been reading this post, some of the stated facts are relatively accurate, it really was the HPD guys Tom and Marc that made it all happen, and no, they did not personally spend the development money required to do the kit, but they spent a ton of time and effort both in selling the idea to Honda and in seeing through the development.

The whole project is a result of the huge effort they put in, it may seem easy to whip up all the needed parts for such a conversion, you would be surprised how many people it took, designers, machinist, fabricators and builders and how many times stuff had to be redesigned after the track testing began.

They did both retire from HPD in 2020 (as I did) I don't think that had any affect on the program support, HPD is just moving on, they are a great company but they are a business, so most things they do are based on business plans that make sense for both the customer and Honda.

Exactly. As it was pitched to me and others, this was just two or three guys who love FF and worked for Honda but Honda had no involvement. No. Way. I'm not bashing their effort, just saying the story we were told was untrue. It was backed by Honda (because of their efforts obviously) but this wasn't some rudderless idea that had no help from Honda. As you said, it takes a huge effort to do something like that.

It's a great kit, and has worked well for the class in most areas.I'm not bemoaning their effort or passion, but the politics that seemed to creep in. I voted to bring in the Honda. I just wish it would have came in honestly and the rules had stayed as they were pitched. Had that happened, I'd bet you'd still see a lot of the Ford powered cars showing up rather than going to elsewhere. Say what you will about older cars, but like it or not that's what makes up SCCA's fields.

[Phil Creighton]

I have to say that there is certainly a degree of revisionist history about the SCCA side of things. I was on the BOD when the decision was made and I have certainly not seen an accurate version of the SCCA involvement - particularly re the Ford involvement. There was no request from Ford for the Duratech until the Honda proposal was close to being voted on. It was further away from a kent motor than the Fit! Both Mike Sauce and I were certainly reluctant to go down the new engine route after decades but look at the numbers participating at the time and they were dropping every year as cars got older and there was no new blood coming in with every other new formula car type on the market. Had Jay Ivey not stepped up with heads the Kent would have been in worse shape.
When the Ford CEO of Ford Motorsport did not even know that they had FF it showed how little notice was paid to it.

Still think it was the right decision in hindsight and probably helped the vintage side with the extra engines avilable from conversions

Phil

[Pi_guy]

I have to say that there is certainly a degree of revisionist history about the SCCA side of things.

There seems to be too much of trying to make everything look good, there is no room for the truth it just clouds history.
Too much of the woke movement too much of trying to sanitize history so we look presentable.
The problem with making everything look pretty and following the narrative of how it should have been, we hide the facts that we need to learn from and grow. .

[stonebridge20]

There seems to be too much of trying to make everything look good, there is no room for the truth it just clouds history.
Too much of the woke movement too much of trying to sanitize history so we look presentable.
The problem with making everything look pretty and following the narrative of how it should have been, we hide the facts that we need to learn from and grow. .

Some day when I retire and have time to write the book, there'll be a chapter on this.

[problemchild]

It would be a good time to thank all the people who made this happen. Thankyou Marc, Tom, Phillip, and all the guys at HPD. Thank you to Sandy, Erik, and the guys at QSRE. Thankyou to the pioneers like Mike Scanlon and Mike Rand who raced their cars by themselves in the early days. Thankyou to car manufacturers like Mygale, Spectrum, and Piper. Thank you to Mike Rand and FRP for expanding to the F1600 Series and attracting pro teams from Cape and Herta at a time we needed that credibility. Thank you to those SCCA people that had the vision to make this happen. Most importantly, at this time, thank you to Doug Learned Jr & Sr for stepping in to help keep the part supply going.

With the engines and spec tires, the racing has never been better. We had a kent car win a Pro race last year. We had a Master age driver in a 20 year old car sweep the Homestead Majors event this year ahead of the young guns in pro cars. At the same time, Formula Ford racing is thriving in vintage racing. Thanks to those who helped make the kent engine feasible again.

Gearsets that sell for $300+, wheels that cost $500+, mixed class racing in SCCA, competition from other racing forms, rising costs, etc are problems that we will continue to have to battle, but we have a pretty solid base.

Certainly, when people are selling 40+ year old cars for double their original cost with descriptions like this (below), no one should be complaining about being misplaced, disenfranchised, or outspent. "Not a show piece, the emphasis was put on a strong safe reliable car. Keep in mind these cars are on average 45 to 50 years old and were run hard. You can get one with all the effort on making it pretty and then end up spending many thousands upon thousands getting it to run reliably and not DNF out a weekend. A new Ivy motor is about $12k Front running cars are averaging 40K in on the grid cost."

The class seems to be in a good spot, all things considered. Thanks to you all!

[ejpoulsen]

FWIW, There’s plenty of Ford engines still on track in California (in SCCA, not just vintage), and they give nothing up to the Fit engines on power. Nothing wrong with choices. Overall, FF is a decently healthy class in an era where most in-the-flesh sports are declining in favor of virtual/video. Enthusiasm and positivity will continue to appeal to newcomers while internal bickering will continue to be a turn-off.

[ewcmr2]

They did both retire from HPD in 2020 (as I did) I don't think that had any affect on the program support, HPD is just moving on, they are a great company but they are a business, so most things they do are based on business plans that make sense for both the customer and Honda.

Great company, yep, I can buy this engine package, win a bunch of its cost back and tell all my “non-car” friends they should buy the Accord, not the Camry.

This is where Honda failed. They sell a bunch of overpriced engine packages and then quickly pulled contingency $$, and now quit the FF program. I don’t see them as a great company anymore, I see Honda as a company not to be trusted, quitters.

[billtebbutt]

Great company, yep, I can buy this engine package, win a bunch of its cost back and tell all my “non-car” friends they should buy the Accord, not the Camry.

This is where Honda failed. They sell a bunch of overpriced engine packages and then quickly pulled contingency $$, and now quit the FF program. I don’t see them as a great company anymore, I see Honda as a company not to be trusted, quitters.

Not-to-be-trusted quitters? Really? What exactly has happened to FF since Honda got here?

- Overall fields are well up off the bottom
- New car sales actually started again
- Parts sales are up
- Arrive and drive pro teams have increased, as FF is once again (after a long hiatus) seen as a stepping stone for young pro drivers to use to move up the ladder. So, new guys with money entering the class - probably a positive thing
- Vintage and Club participation rates are up, due in part to greater Kent parts availability
- Folks can run a junkyard FIT motor in a decent chassis, and (given ample driving talent) finish midfield more often than not (gosh sounds like the very early days of FF)
- Series sponsors felt that they could commit to a "newer-technology platform", and step up to sponsor a series for many years running (Yeah, Toyo, looking right at ya!). Oh, btw, at this coming weekend's Toyo race at Mosport, we have 29 entries already, almost perfectly dividend between Honda and Kent-engined cars
- Racers with no interest in engine maintenance (unlike me) could run a FIT in their car for years, bringing them into or back into FF. Change the oil, if you must, but just bring it and wring it!

What exactly were you expecting, a forever relationship between Honda and SCCA? Was there something in the original agreement that said it would be evergreen?? The average marriage in the US lasts 8.2 years; by that measure, Honda stayed around a long time. And frankly, as a non-Honda guy, I appreciate everything they did for the class. And I wouldn't buy a Camry anyways....

BT

[Fastflav]

I have always been a fan of F1600 and I am actively looking into getting it. I'd would mainly do regional, majors, and if become decently fast, would venture in a couple FRP races a year. I don't own an FC yet.

As someone coming from Miata and endurance racing, Champcar, It is just silly how often the engine has to be open (head refresh, bottom rebuild) and the money that needs to be spent just to keep the engine running. That is money that could be used for more races or developing the chassis.

I always wondered why there isn't more people racing F1600 or FF at least in the East Coast. Touring classes and Spec Ford have huge grids but F1600 is waaaay more fun to drive.

My perception is that most people coming from those classes will not put up the cost and amount of work to keep those engine running. Most of the season cost comes from consumables and logistics. Engine and transmission work are done in very long intervals. Modern engines are just better and people are used to it. Also, chassis part cost is high in case of upgrades and or crashes.

What is not to love about an engine that you have an extremely low running cost and low maintenance effort?
There is a reason all pro level and runoff cars are Honda. It is not just performance, cost is the main driver! Once the engine is build, you don't have to rely on the engine builder so much. And I am not adding all the other auxiliary failures. There is no discussion about that.

It appears to me that the gripe behind the Honda vs Kent are:

1. For those with Kent chassis, conversion cost is still high for most grassroots/regional level guys. Also, It is a pretty involved conversion.
2. Complete Honda cars don't come by for sale often and when it is available prices are high for regional level. Maybe when more older cars start to trickle down to the used marked, regional racers could adopt more Hondas.
3. Engine builders may not like this engine so much it is reduces their market, but there is plenty historic folks out there.
4. Honda situation may have spooked a few people from making the conversion.

To me a Honda package still makes way more sense.

Happy holidays.

[TimH]

As someone coming from Miata and endurance racing, Champcar, It is just silly how often the engine has to be open (head refresh, bottom rebuild) and the money that needs to be spent just to keep the engine running.

I don't know who you've been talking to, but those numbers have come down a LOT. Jay says he doesn't trust the timing chain past about 75 hours, so a rebuild is certainly in order by then, but that represents an awful lot of racing. Most folks in open wheel these days consider an Enduro to be maybe 70 minutes at speed, and those happen maybe a couple of times a year at best. They're exhausing.

For those at the pointy end, a head refresh makes some sense after one or two dozen hours, but that extra couple of horsepower won't make a whit of difference to a driver who hasn't already exceeded the first hundred or two hours on track. By then you should be able to do that work yourself, so cost isn't an issue. Same for all the little bits of care required to get to that point without blowing the thing up.

That last bit is why professional teams prefer a Honda. They just can't always trust their customers not to abuse the motor, and the Honda does tolerate that a bit better. And their better customers are the sort capable of using the superior drivability of fuel injection.

Finally, the Honda excludes you from some vintage groups, which are the clear direction FF is going these days.

My opinion.

[stonebridge20]

Finally, the Kent excludes you from some vintage groups, which are the clear direction FF is going these days.

My opinion.

I think you mean the Honda excludes you from vintage events.

[scott fairchild]

I know this ship sailed (and sank) a while ago, but in hindsight, maybe the FITs should've just been required to run the 32/36 DGV Weber. Could've kept the Fit reliability without the high costs of ECU (ignition could've been controlled by spec off the shelf stand alone unit) and associated harnesses. Also, BOP with respect to throttle response would've a more direct comparison.

Now if only those that force fed the FIT would realize they're on a similar path with the slicks

[Fastflav]

I think you mean the Honda excludes you from vintage events.

Yes, that is what I meant.

[Raceworks]

I know this ship sailed (and sank) a while ago, but in hindsight, maybe the FITs should've just been required to run the 32/36 DGV Weber. Could've kept the Fit reliability without the high costs of ECU (ignition could've been controlled by spec off the shelf stand alone unit) and associated harnesses. Also, BOP with respect to throttle response would've a more direct comparison.

Now if only those that force fed the FIT would realize they're on a similar path with the slicks

First off, the only "off the shelf" part for a Weber DGV & stand-alone ignition is the carburetor itself. Honda stopped using carburetors in the 1980's, and nobody in the aftermarket makes either a DGV manifold or a crank-fire ignition kit anyway. I did street tuning for a decade before I switched over exclusively to formula cars, and none of my hundreds of Honda customers (even the drag racers) ever asked me to pull the fuel injection from his Honda and convert it to carburetors. In fact, the drag racers went to EFI pretty much completely over a decade ago because while the initial cost was high, the cost to maintain was vastly lower.

Those low tech parts aren't exactly "cheap" either: $400 for an intake manifold, $1,800 for a crank-fire kit (Honda stopped using distributors 20 years ago), $700 for a DGV blueprinted for FF racing, or just under $3,000. Given that you'd never hope to sell more than a couple hundred units for it because the tuner crowd upgrades their Fits by putting K-series engines in them, you're going to pay at least twice as much for the parts as what you pay for them due them being essentially custom units.

Second, "EFI has better throttle response than carburetors" is complete and utter BS. I ran carburetors for a decade in Formula Mazda, and those things would bog down really badly when you came out of slow corners. After a couple seasons of frustration with it, I talked to Daryl Drummond (the engine builder for that spec class) and got some books on carburetor tuning. A season of tweaking idle jets, pump jets, and air corrector jets and I had a Formula Mazda that could idle and had crisp, immediate throttle response throughout the power band. All I had to do most times was stay on top of the main jets when the temperature changed. In other words: Tune. Your. Car.

Manufacturers didn't go to fuel injection for better performance, they went to it for fuel efficiency and to meet emissions standards.

Third, it's not "throttle response" but "torque curve." While the Fit engine sucks at top end (with the air restrictor the last 250 rpm before the rev limiter are pretty much useless), it make better torque than the Kent. The air restrictor doesn't reduce torque, only horsepower. This means certain tracks give advantage to the Fits, others the Kents, depending on the course configuration. I would not want to run a Kent vs a Honda at Carolina Motorsports Park, nor would I want to run my Honda against anyone good with a Kent at Daytona.

Slapping a carburetor on a Fit won't fix the torque curve difference for the same reason putting fuel injection on a Kent wouldn't: you've got differences in bore, stroke, combustion chamber design, and one engine benefits from 42 year of technological advancement . The last is why blueprinting makes a huge difference with Kents, minimal difference with Fits.

[problemchild]

Is this 2010?

All the various camps of FF people are doing their own thing, including people working toward the next evolution of FF/F1600 engine. It appears most of the people in these various camps are happy, and those that are not, have lots of choices. Perhaps some constructive results came from Honda vs Kent threads in 2010, or not, but in 2023, the ship has so sailed that I see no benefit in taking the time to inform or correct misconceptions.

Enjoy racing your Formula Ford, Formula F, or f1600 for as long as you can!

[scott fairchild]

First off, the only "off the shelf" part for a Weber DGV & stand-alone ignition is the carburetor itself. Honda stopped using carburetors in the 1980's, and nobody in the aftermarket makes either a DGV manifold or a crank-fire ignition kit anyway. I did street tuning for a decade before I switched over exclusively to formula cars, and none of my hundreds of Honda customers (even the drag racers) ever asked me to pull the fuel injection from his Honda and convert it to carburetors. In fact, the drag racers went to EFI pretty much completely over a decade ago because while the initial cost was high, the cost to maintain was vastly lower.

Those low tech parts aren't exactly "cheap" either: $400 for an intake manifold, $1,800 for a crank-fire kit (Honda stopped using distributors 20 years ago), $700 for a DGV blueprinted for FF racing, or just under $3,000. Given that you'd never hope to sell more than a couple hundred units for it because the tuner crowd upgrades their Fits by putting K-series engines in them, you're going to pay at least twice as much for the parts as what you pay for them due them being essentially custom units.

Second, "EFI has better throttle response than carburetors" is complete and utter BS. I ran carburetors for a decade in Formula Mazda, and those things would bog down really badly when you came out of slow corners. After a couple seasons of frustration with it, I talked to Daryl Drummond (the engine builder for that spec class) and got some books on carburetor tuning. A season of tweaking idle jets, pump jets, and air corrector jets and I had a Formula Mazda that could idle and had crisp, immediate throttle response throughout the power band. All I had to do most times was stay on top of the main jets when the temperature changed. In other words: Tune. Your. Car.

Manufacturers didn't go to fuel injection for better performance, they went to it for fuel efficiency and to meet emissions standards.

Third, it's not "throttle response" but "torque curve." While the Fit engine sucks at top end (with the air restrictor the last 250 rpm before the rev limiter are pretty much useless), it make better torque than the Kent. The air restrictor doesn't reduce torque, only horsepower. This means certain tracks give advantage to the Fits, others the Kents, depending on the course configuration. I would not want to run a Kent vs a Honda at Carolina Motorsports Park, nor would I want to run my Honda against anyone good with a Kent at Daytona.

Slapping a carburetor on a Fit won't fix the torque curve difference for the same reason putting fuel injection on a Kent wouldn't: you've got differences in bore, stroke, combustion chamber design, and one engine benefits from 42 year of technological advancement . The last is why blueprinting makes a huge difference with Kents, minimal difference with Fits.

I totally understand there is more at play (engine architecture, etc.) than just the restrictor. Drivability and electrical were my specialty when working in the automotive industry. Those ignition numbers seem crazy high. How many crane, MSD, etc. units are triggered by a simple 3 wire Hall-effect sensor? Plenty! A simple crank pulley with reluctor and bracket isn't difficult to make. $700 for a prepped carb sounds right, but $$$ for an intake is a net zero since the Formula Honda needed a non-stock plenum. Fuel systems to convert wouldn't have been required surge tanks and such for the higher, more consistent fuel pressures needed with injection. A well tuned carb can do amazing things, but it isn't any match for a rudimentary EFI system. Think spray pattern, injector location, atomization, pulse width modulation, etc. Where, and how much, is an ECU if a competitor needs a replacement? How many Formula Hondas have been converted back? Allowing the Fit DID grow the class, mostly in series that don't allow FITs OR slicks.

I'm not implying that it didn't help pro teams or arrive and drive shops. But it bastardized a class. It'd be pretty ridiculous to put a EFI boxer Subaru engine in a FV, right? Similar technology gap for comparison here.

But I'm sure the 3 dozen or so active Formula Honda cars enjoy their package (and it's probably a good one). They probably enjoy bolting on a new set of tires each weekend too just to stay competitive, cuz it was always about saving the competitor $$$, right?

[alangbaker]

Third, it's not "throttle response" but "torque curve." While the Fit engine sucks at top end (with the air restrictor the last 250 rpm before the rev limiter are pretty much useless), it make better torque than the Kent. The air restrictor doesn't reduce torque, only horsepower. This means certain tracks give advantage to the Fits, others the Kents, depending on the course configuration. I would not want to run a Kent vs a Honda at Carolina Motorsports Park, nor would I want to run my Honda against anyone good with a Kent at Daytona.

Sam, you made plenty of good points, but I have to take issue with this:

The air restrictor doesn't reduce torque, only horsepower.

This is flat-out wrong.

Since there is a simple formula relating torque, rpm and horsepowe, there is no way to reduce horsepower at any given RPM without reducing torque.

At any RPM, if engine A produces 1.2 times the torque as does engine B, then the horsepower is also 1.2 times as much.

That is simply a fact.

[Larry H]

Kind of scary conversations for someone new to FF.

[teamwisconsin]

Kind of scary conversations for someone new to FF.

to anyone new to FF: don’t let this scare you. This debate has happened in some form or another every winter since 2009 on Apexspeed. It gets cold in the winter and folks like to keep their fingers warm by arguing about this. It’s like the same sort of holiday debates that most families have at the dinner table; stale arguments over favorite teams, politics, movies, etc.

The only difference is that here on Apexspeed your crazy uncles that like to argue all have old formula cars. It’s the same in any other group of motorsports folks, I promise. Spec Miata guys are probably arguing somewhere online about parity between different eras of their respective ****boxes, drifters might be arguing about how many zip ties they can get on their bumpers without dropping their vape pens, and so on and so forth.

Come on in, the waters fine.

[DaveW]

...While the Fit engine sucks at top end (with the air restrictor the last 250 rpm before the rev limiter are pretty much useless), it make better torque than the Kent. The air restrictor doesn't reduce torque, only horsepower. This means certain tracks give advantage to the Fits, others the Kents, depending on the course configuration...

Sam, you made plenty of good points, but I have to take issue with this:

This is flat-out wrong.

Since there is a simple formula relating torque, rpm and horsepower, there is no way to reduce horsepower at any given RPM without reducing torque.

At any RPM, if engine A produces 1.2 times the torque as does engine B, then the horsepower is also 1.2 times as much.

That is simply a fact.

What IS correct is that torque at lower RPM's is only slightly reduced by a restrictor sized to limit peak HP. The reduction in torque and HP is much greater at higher RPM's. So Raceworks' statement is directionally correct, but you are right that any restriction will reduce HP AND torque. A low RPM torque/HP decrease may be able to be mostly restored by proper jetting/mapping, but it WILL be there to at least a small degree.

The unrestricted Fit engine has better low-end torque than the Kent. Restricting it attempts to equalize their overall performance, but as Raceworks says, as a result of the restrictor, the Kent can have more top end torque & HP, while the Fit will still have more low-end torque & HP.

As an aside, back when I was running a Pinto engine in my FC, I used to advance the cam timing to give more low-end torque and not have to rev the engine over 6500 RPM. This extended engine life but resulted in a small reduction in peak HP which was not an issue at most tracks. The optimum retarded cam timing gave more top-end HP, but wore things out much more quickly revving to 7200 RPM. For the Runoffs we reverted to the cam setting (retarded) that gave the best performance, but shortened engine life. YMMV

[mboian90]

to anyone new to FF: don’t let this scare you...

Come on in, the waters fine.

I think I have a post earlier in this conversation right before I started road racing. Someone sent me a PM afterwards saying the material here doesnt reflect peoples attitude at the track. I found this to be true. 2022 was my first full season road racing and I ran 6 weekends plus the Runoffs on top of 7 local autox events (my region survives on autox participation). I dont think I ever had a conversation at any of those events about engine or tire choices. We just raced and had fun.

Regarding the Honda, I have been happy. My one man team is still learning and supplied my junkyard engine a fair amount of abuse over the past year. It still runs great. The only time I have felt like I was lacking power vs the field was the Runoffs. Likely it was actually me, most of those guys would have still beat me if they were in a Radio Flyer.

Whatever you got, bring it to the track and lets race in 2023!

Matt

[reidhazelton]

Kind of scary conversations for someone new to FF.

Hi Larry -

Don't let the internet turn you away. FF was, and still is, a great class with great people like Ethan (Team Wisconsin) a bit north of you out in California. If you are getting started he would be an great person to get to know.

As like any other social space, the internet is where a very vocal minority go to scream at clouds. Don't let that be representative of the class as a whole. There are maybe 5 people who make the most noise, and they don't necessarily speak for the 100's of FF owners out there. It is actually one of the most cordial groups I've raced with. There aren't any sneaky protests or malicious on-track behavior. Actually, there are often FF parties at larger events (June Sprints/Runoffs) where everyone just enjoys being at the track.

As far as the parts availability and supply concerns, they never seem to come true in any class. These are not Honda Civics or small block Chevys so parts will never be as easy to obtain. That does not mean it's impossible, or even difficult. You might have to hop on Apexspeed or call around to find parts but you'll find what you need. Everyone wants to help people get to the track so they will sell parts for a reasonable price, usually, even if it takes them a while to come around. There is a long time FF/FC supplier spooling up to replenish the FFit parts supply. As long as there are cars out there, there will be parts to service them.