What do we do if Honda is getting out of the game?

[problemchild]

And if you don't mind saying: how much have you spent with them over how many years?

My math. My 2 FIT engines that won 13 races in 2020, including the June Sprints and the Runoffs, were assembled in 2013. One was blueprinted, so each cost $10-12k I expect. One has had the head off for cleaning 3x and the other twice. Only other service was oil, filter, and valves adjusted. I will project that each engine has 5 digits in mileage for a total of $14-15k total cost. At approximately $2k per season including initial purchase cost, how can any one argue the math? At Sebring, we got beat by a $600 wrecker engine core. Getting through the corners is once again the foundation for success in the class, and another competitor did a better job than us that day.

Clearly this situation with HPD will create some short term pain but should resolve it self. Time to begin the next evolution phase and find the next engine to get us into the next decade.

[Jnovak]

At the end of the day, the problem has to be solved if the class is to survive (I have a dog in this fight and I certainly want it to survive). If Fast Forward has a solution, ok. If its at a price equal to or more than the original HPD kit...maybe there's an alternate solution. There are other motors out there (after all, its just the lump at the back of the car). What about the motor in the SRF Gen 3? That's a 1600cc Ford Sigma and is well known. Or Chevy Ecotec? Durotec? What motors are in FF's in other parts of the world? Maybe its a good idea not to try to re-invent the wheel but find a solution that is the easiest and most economical available that has already been proven?

Great thinking Bob. WASUP. SCCA? Is there something wrong with 2 classes using the same engine?

[Rick Kirchner]

It's my opinion that other than the original Ford engines of Cortina, Kent, and Pinto origins, racing's foray into using production based motors is about over. It's over because software and advanced manufacturing methods allow manufacturers to quickly optimize to maintain BOP across government regulations and market desires in a way that they could not do before. It's over because in less than 20 years the vast majority of transportation is going to be electric.

Given the lack of new blood in the open wheel side of the sport, and the near total lack of new chassis, I have my doubts that FV/FF/FC/FA, and for that matter, FM, will survive outside of vintage. The pros will go electric. The ladder series will as well - but as we've seen lately, there's going to be very little trickle-down. F1, F2, F3, Indycar, and the Indy ladder represent Less than 500 cars world wide. F4 is the jump off after carts, but again, no trickle down to speak of, because there's less overall money in the sport, what remains is crazy expensive, and rules stability keeps the older cars on the pro side for much longer than before.

Realistically, even in vintage, I think there's another maybe 30 years in it until all this stuff becomes wall art and coffee tables. Virtually EVERYTHING will become niche production. At what point does racing 80 year old machinery hard become even more economically non-viable than what we are doing now? We have more than a dozen makes of chassis and several generations in each. Skilled fabricators are dying off with even fewer coming in to replace them. Sooner or later time will take its toll on uprights and A-arms. Where ya gonna get that? Let alone the complex bellhousing/oil tanks of later cars? Swifts and the last generation of VDs may be the only things capable of being supported.

Circle track guys are not in the same boat. The Sprint car guys have the benefit of junkyards full of basic parts and a specialty marketplace that can deliver every part of their engines. Their chassis designs benefit from some de-facto standardization that has developed over the years, and the parts are amazingly simple to produce. Midgets for years have simply used a specialized 1/2 of a small block casting and the rest of the parts are common with the sprinters.

I believe that the solution is NOT trying to adapt new engines. If my prediction for the future is even remotely accurate, you'll have one more production engine to choose from before it's all gone. And then you still have the problem of supporting all the older cars.

Every chassis out there will hold a Kent or Pinto based motor. What is needed is for a specialty supplier to either obtain the rights for, or reverse engineer the blocks, heads, covers, and any other cast parts required. The rules need to take a serious look at a focus on longevity wherever possible and make the requisite changes. One could copy the Zetec architecture into a Pinto form factor and get much of the longevity gains the Zetec provides, along with similar block strengthening that was done on the replacement Kent.

Heck, if it wasn't for all the hyper-optimized Swifts out there a guy might be able to design something in-between the two and have one basic block/head at two or three different displacements that would cover everything. A real smart guy might still figure this out though.

With today's advanced manufacturing, there's no reason this can't happen. 3D scans allow for fairly rapid reverse engineering, and lets face it, an inline-4 is not a complicated piece. Doug Learned has already shown it to be very doable on the head - as Esslinger did with the Ranger motor. You can now 3-D print in sand, as well as wax, and short run castings are becoming more common.

There will be no more support from the big manufacturers for our sport as it is today. Chasing their offerings is a fools errand.

[Kazis31]

agreed

[alangbaker]

Every chassis out there will hold a Kent or Pinto based motor. What is needed is for a specialty supplier to either obtain the rights for, or reverse engineer the blocks, heads, covers, and any other cast parts required. The rules need to take a serious look at a focus on longevity wherever possible and make the requisite changes. One could copy the Zetec architecture into a Pinto form factor and get much of the longevity gains the Zetec provides, along with similar block strengthening that was done on the replacement Kent.

Heck, if it wasn't for all the hyper-optimized Swifts out there a guy might be able to design something in-between the two and have one basic block/head at two or three different displacements that would cover everything. A real smart guy might still figure this out though.

With today's advanced manufacturing, there's no reason this can't happen. 3D scans allow for fairly rapid reverse engineering, and lets face it, an inline-4 is not a complicated piece. Doug Learned has already shown it to be very doable on the head - as Esslinger did with the Ranger motor. You can now 3-D print in sand, as well as wax, and short run castings are becoming more common.

There will be no more support from the big manufacturers for our sport as it is today. Chasing their offerings is a fools errand.

Ummmm.... ...I've got a quick question if I may:

If the new plan is to recreate an engine or engines...

...why in the WORLD would you recreate the (let's face it) crappy, overstressed engines designed more then HALF A CENTURY AGO?

If it becomes necessary to buy what are going to be VERY expensive engines from specialty manufacturers...

...could it at least be the engines that are the most robust, most reliable and which require the least maintenance?

[problemchild]

Once we get through the next few years, we will have some feel for how long F1600 and F2000 will survive. I expect one more engine cycle will get us as far as our racing will go. It would be nice if F1600 and F2000 could use the same core engine, like the USF2000 and Pro2000 do.

It looks like Fast Forward has bought us a few years to get to the next cycle. Thanks again Doug and Doug!

[Rick Kirchner]

Ummmm.... ...I've got a quick question if I may:

If the new plan is to recreate an engine or engines...

...why in the WORLD would you recreate the (let's face it) crappy, overstressed engines designed more then HALF A CENTURY AGO?

If it becomes necessary to buy what are going to be VERY expensive engines from specialty manufacturers...

...could it at least be the engines that are the most robust, most reliable and which require the least maintenance?

Because you have to start somewhere and backward compatibility is a huge requirement - because there is no "let's make this manufacture happy and they'll give us contingency and a ladder system" requirement. Nothing says you have to copy every aspect of the old designs. But you do have constraints - bolt pattern at the back, motor mount locations (sides for older, some aspects of the front and pans for newer). Some intake and exhaust considerations.

Overstressed? Maybe for Atlantic. 250hp out of the Kent bottom end is kind of putting 10 pounds of crap into a 5 pound bag. Put a YAC in it and be happier and wealthier. Kents aren't really overstressed, and neither are Pintos.

But you're kind of free to play around with bore, stroke, and spacing within those constraints, but the more you play around with it the more expensive it's likely to get. One could use the bore, stroke, and rod ratio of the Zetec in a strengthened Pinto block. There's already an aluminum pinto head solution. Twin-cam packaging limits the use of that to just the later cars, so why bother? No doubt a variety of oiling and cooling improvements could be considered. Maybe someone could get really creative with 2.3L Ranger or SBC roller rockers. Maybe someone could design it like the old twin cam ford indy motor where you could just flip the head around and put intake/exhaust where you need them.

But Alan, a brand new motor from any builder is something like $12K now, and the only "original" component needed is the block. How much more expensive is it going to get? 15%?

A better question might be "what does the Honda give us over a Kent built from the newer parts?" Now just address that question. Evidently people were never able to address that in the past.

If you were able to go back in time, a better solution for all of this would have been a single custom engine architecture suitable for varying displacements from 1600 to 2.3 L and maybe a single cam and twin cam head that was adaptable across all classes. Let any manufacture who wants to pay contingencies spec the valve covers....But that wasn't an option in '68 really, not at any reasonable price. They didn't even use the term "architecture" back then.

[alangbaker]

Rick, you've completely missed my point.

You're suggesting that you maintain backwards compatibility with the worst possible starting point rather than the best possible.

The Honda Fit engine and the Zetec engine are just better engineered and they are already in use.

If we have to start having custom engines made, then let's copy the best we've got.

Then after talking about the "huge requirement" of backward compatibility in the first paragraph, you suddenly veer off and throw it entirely out the window and suggest that you can make huge changes to the old designs.

The Kent/Fit parity is already really good, so if you're going to build a replica of one: build a replica Fit.

The Pinto/Zetec parity isn't good, but that ship sailed ages ago, so still: build a replica Zetec.

Because you have to start somewhere and backward compatibility is a huge requirement - because there is no "let's make this manufacture happy and they'll give us contingency and a ladder system" requirement. Nothing says you have to copy every aspect of the old designs. But you do have constraints - bolt pattern at the back, motor mount locations (sides for older, some aspects of the front and pans for newer). Some intake and exhaust considerations.

Overstressed? Maybe for Atlantic. 250hp out of the Kent bottom end is kind of putting 10 pounds of crap into a 5 pound bag. Put a YAC in it and be happier and wealthier. Kents aren't really overstressed, and neither are Pintos.

But you're kind of free to play around with bore, stroke, and spacing within those constraints, but the more you play around with it the more expensive it's likely to get. One could use the bore, stroke, and rod ratio of the Zetec in a strengthened Pinto block. There's already an aluminum pinto head solution. Twin-cam packaging limits the use of that to just the later cars, so why bother? No doubt a variety of oiling and cooling improvements could be considered. Maybe someone could get really creative with 2.3L Ranger or SBC roller rockers. Maybe someone could design it like the old twin cam ford indy motor where you could just flip the head around and put intake/exhaust where you need them.

But Alan, a brand new motor from any builder is something like $12K now, and the only "original" component needed is the block. How much more expensive is it going to get? 15%?

A better question might be "what does the Honda give us over a Kent built from the newer parts?" Now just address that question. Evidently people were never able to address that in the past.

If you were able to go back in time, a better solution for all of this would have been a single custom engine architecture suitable for varying displacements from 1600 to 2.3 L and maybe a single cam and twin cam head that was adaptable across all classes. Let any manufacture who wants to pay contingencies spec the valve covers....But that wasn't an option in '68 really, not at any reasonable price. They didn't even use the term "architecture" back then.

[t walgamuth]

Because you have to start somewhere and backward compatibility is a huge requirement - because there is no "let's make this manufacture happy and they'll give us contingency and a ladder system" requirement. Nothing says you have to copy every aspect of the old designs. But you do have constraints - bolt pattern at the back, motor mount locations (sides for older, some aspects of the front and pans for newer). Some intake and exhaust considerations.

Overstressed? Maybe for Atlantic. 250hp out of the Kent bottom end is kind of putting 10 pounds of crap into a 5 pound bag. Put a YAC in it and be happier and wealthier. Kents aren't really overstressed, and neither are Pintos.

But you're kind of free to play around with bore, stroke, and spacing within those constraints, but the more you play around with it the more expensive it's likely to get. One could use the bore, stroke, and rod ratio of the Zetec in a strengthened Pinto block. There's already an aluminum pinto head solution. Twin-cam packaging limits the use of that to just the later cars, so why bother? No doubt a variety of oiling and cooling improvements could be considered. Maybe someone could get really creative with 2.3L Ranger or SBC roller rockers. Maybe someone could design it like the old twin cam ford indy motor where you could just flip the head around and put intake/exhaust where you need them.

But Alan, a brand new motor from any builder is something like $12K now, and the only "original" component needed is the block. How much more expensive is it going to get? 15%?

A better question might be "what does the Honda give us over a Kent built from the newer parts?" Now just address that question. Evidently people were never able to address that in the past.

If you were able to go back in time, a better solution for all of this would have been a single custom engine architecture suitable for varying displacements from 1600 to 2.3 L and maybe a single cam and twin cam head that was adaptable across all classes. Let any manufacture who wants to pay contingencies spec the valve covers....But that wasn't an option in '68 really, not at any reasonable price. They didn't even use the term "architecture" back then.

what does the honda have over the kent? I'll list all I can think of that I had to sort on the Kent I had back 8 years ago...booster battery, Crap starter and difficult installation of same, crap distributor. It was quick though when I was able to get to the course.

[problemchild]

I know this is winter, but really. We’re struggling to get oil pans made, and people are suggesting making purposebuilt custom engines. Indycar cannot find a 3rd engine supplier. I’m sure many are flipping out over the thought of cycling in a 4th engine in 60 years of the class, but surely it must be a production engine. We have a few years yet to figure it out.

[Rick Kirchner]

Rick, you've completely missed my point.

You're suggesting that you maintain backwards compatibility with the worst possible starting point rather than the best possible.

The Honda Fit engine and the Zetec engine are just better engineered and they are already in use.

And you totally missed mine, not the least of which was identifying what makes the Zetec and Fit better and incorporating that. "just better engineered" - just what do you mean by that?

The fit is a minority it the greater scheme of FF. How many are there - 20? If I was looking toward something that works for everyone, why would I cater to Fit? You can always go the way of letting the builders re-build them and the associated performance creep you will have to address, and find erplacements for the stuff that's not really "rebuildable". Given the small number of Fit cars out there no doubt there are plenty of junkyard motors to last as long as the class is viable, and when they are no longer viable, there's always going back to a Kent, which will undoubtedly still be around.

The Zetec? it's primary advantages are bores that don't wear themselves out and a head that doesn't vary as much as the Pinto did. The Pinto wasn't helped by trying to solve lack of VD chassis rigidity by making the motor semi-stressed either. But the Zetec only fits 98 and up VDs and the handful of other chassis built since 2005 or so - and a Pinto fits in every one of them. Besides, it's not really a Pinto/Zetec problem anyway. I supposed I just confused people in throwing in that scenario.

[Rick Kirchner]

what does the honda have over the kent? I'll list all I can think of that I had to sort on the Kent I had back 8 years ago...booster battery, Crap starter and difficult installation of same, crap distributor. It was quick though when I was able to get to the course.

The starter is not the engine. Distributors an be addressed with crank fire, but I don't hear a lot of complaining about Kent distributors.

[Rick Kirchner]

but surely it must be a production engine

Because why attempt to figure out what the right solution might be when you've obviously done so much research?

[alangbaker]

I know this is winter, but really. We’re struggling to get oil pans made, and people are suggesting making purposebuilt custom engines. Indycar cannot find a 3rd engine supplier. I’m sure many are flipping out over the thought of cycling in a 4th engine in 60 years of the class, but surely it must be a production engine. We have a few years yet to figure it out.

I agree that the situation is not yet dire. I'm delighted to discover (from a few different sources) that there are plans in the works to produce the parts we need (thank you Erik from Quicksilver and thank you Doug from FastForward!).

But the time to start working on the next thing is before you need it. In situations like this, things tend to go from "it's not a crisis" to "Oh my god! We've really got a problem" quicker than a blink.

[problemchild]

The fit is a minority it the greater scheme of FF. How many are there - 20? If I was looking toward something that works for everyone, why would I cater to Fit? You can always go the way of letting the builders re-build them and the associated performance creep you will have to address, and find erplacements for the stuff that's not really "rebuildable". Given the small number of Fit cars out there no doubt there are plenty of junkyard motors to last as long as the class is viable, and when they are no longer viable, there's always going back to a Kent, which will undoubtedly still be around.

I hope you are making a joke and not that ignorant. Perhaps you should research how many FIT engines are in use. Yes they are a minority in cars built over the last 51 years, but probably more than 50% of the cars built over the last 20 years, and 95% of the cars built over the last decade have Honda’s. Modern engines are delivered in production form to the same tolerances and build quality as the best “built” engines based on 60 year old technology. We put zero-weight oil in them and race them at 6500 rpm for tens of thousands of miles with no more maintenance than oil changes. Somebody should do some research but it is not me.

[alangbaker]

And you totally missed mine, not the least of which was identifying what makes the Zetec and Fit better and incorporating that. "just better engineered" - just what do you mean by that?

I mean precisely what it says. In 1959, the first version of the engine that became the Kent was put into production. They didn't have CAD much less CAE (computer aided engineering) in 1959. Even in 1995, when the last version for the Fiesta was made, the computing power allowed for nothing like the analysis we have now.

Combine that with the fact that the rules were defined loosely enough that with the Kent you have an engined designed for about two thirds of the horsepower and about 80% of the redline, and yeah: the Fit engine is going to be a more reliable piece as a starting place.

The fit is a minority it the greater scheme of FF. How many are there - 20? If I was looking toward something that works for everyone, why would I cater to Fit? You can always go the way of letting the builders re-build them and the associated performance creep you will have to address, and find erplacements for the stuff that's not really "rebuildable". Given the small number of Fit cars out there no doubt there are plenty of junkyard motors to last as long as the class is viable, and when they are no longer viable, there's always going back to a Kent, which will undoubtedly still be around.

The "small number of Fit cars"? Seriously? You think it's just 20? There were 25 at the 2017 Runoffs ALONE. They had already sold 100 engines for FF by January 2014. I think you're seriously underestimating the number of Fit conversions that have been done.

But if you're talking about having an engine remanufactured, there's no reason the Fit CAN'T work for everyone.

For a starter, Honda has a legal commitment to provide OEM parts for the engine until 2024. There are only a few bits you'd need to source from low-volume specialty fabricators. And the junkyards are still full of Fits you can pull parts and complete engines from.

Recreating the Kent means getting EVERYTHING from low-volume specialty suppliers.

[OneWayOut]

I'm sure you're right that a brand new Kent engine is a little less than the kit to convert from a Honda...
...however, the difference might not be all that much—the block alone is now $1,825...

Since HPD is hiding the numbers from us Kent folks, would someone with a HPD account mind sharing the current cost of the kit?

Do they still sell kit parts separately? What do those actually cost? I know that for awhile, the kit parts were listed individually for sale, but you couldn't actually purchase them.

[Kazis31]

Honda K20c crate engine brand new from Mountune in Carson
is $6785 ,that includes turbo and produces 308 hp.
Trow drysump on it and your styling.
How much more power and reliability can you ask for ???

[Kazis31]

And for club racer .
there is nothing wrong in wrenching on your own engine.
It's not a spec class.

[problemchild]

I really don’t know why Kent folks are even discussing replacement engines. It was my belief that the vintage racers and Ford enthusiasts were happy with their status quo and the current part supply process.

It is the people interested in the more modern cars, mostly of which have Honda’s, that are now having part supply issues, and need solutions. Fortunately, the issues are not with the engines themselves, but the low volume custom ancillary components which can be sourced elsewhere.

Based on the history of the class, it is reasonable to assume that the kent enthusiasts will want to stick with the 2nd version of the class’s engine, and not evolve to the 4th version. I expect it will be after my time too, but am open to helping the next generation continue the fine history of the class.

[alangbaker]

Since HPD is hiding the numbers from us Kent folks, would someone with a HPD account mind sharing the current cost of the kit?

Do they still sell kit parts separately? What do those actually cost? I know that for awhile, the kit parts were listed individually for sale, but you couldn't actually purchase them.

The full car kits have been delisted, but they were about $14,000 before they disappear.

They do sell the kit parts separately... ...assuming they still have any. As I said at the beginning of the thread, Honda is getting out of the game.

[problemchild]

The full car kits have been delisted, but they were about $14,000 before they disappear.

.

In any comparison, you need to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. The engine part of the kit is around $7-8k. For example if I want a ready to install spare engine for a car, it’s the $7500 plus $500-1000 for a wrecker engine, then about 15 hours to assemble it. What would it cost for a top Kent ready to plug in a car?

I am not trying to sell anybody anything, just combat the uninformed rhetoric of people that are not interested in purchasing anyway.
It certainly made sense to me, and many others.

FWIW, if I was shopping for a Kent engine, I would not go to the Cricket Farms or QuickSilver website for pricing. I would email or phone. I would not consider that their websites did not provide that info as a deceptive move to keep me from knowing what the costs were.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Exactly how many F/Fits are there running in the U.S. today? Someone please answer that question. Next answer the question of how many Kent powered cars there are. The Kent engine does not have to be re-created. It has already been done as needed. The Fit engine deal was a hijack of a class so they would have instant National status. The SCCA could care less about Formula Fords . The fix was in before the first car was shown at the 40th FF reunion. As one of the SCCA Board members told me at the time "we knew you old dinosaurs were not going to like this" Economically it makes no sense to install a Fit in a Vintage or Club Ford just so you can run around at the back of the field. Figure out what it cost to do the conversion and what it will do to the value of your car. Yes the SCCA has successfully managed to run most of the Formula Fords to Vintage racing. I have nothing against the Honda engine. I am sure it is a nice reliable engine and makes more economic sense to operate in a car designed for it.

[alangbaker]

In any comparison, you need to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. The engine part of the kit is around $7-8k. For example if I want a ready to install spare engine for a car, it’s the $7500 plus $500-1000 for a wrecker engine, then about 15 hours to assemble it. What would it cost for a top Kent ready to plug in a car?

Meh. Someone asked what the full kit price was and I gave them the best I had at the time.

Since I posted, I found a price list I was sent about 10 months ago.

A full kit for the RF99 was $16.9K...

...and the engine conversion kit was $10.8K of that, but that does include parts you might not have to buy for your spare (chassis wiring and ECU for instance).

However, as you say, a club racer who was willing to have a spare engine from a wrecker and simply transfer over the parts on his own time can have that spare for less than a grand.

[problemchild]

However, as you say, a club racer who was willing to have a spare engine from a wrecker and simply transfer over the parts on his own time can have that spare for less than a grand.

A $600 wrecker engine was outside pole at the Runoffs and won the Sebring Super Tour event in January.

[alangbaker]

A $600 wrecker engine was outside pole at the Runoffs and won the Sebring Super Tour event in January.

I can't say I'm shocked.

[t walgamuth]

The starter is not the engine. Distributors an be addressed with crank fire, but I don't hear a lot of complaining about Kent distributors.

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but if you are taking the starter in and out six times in a season it will cut into your racing time. The distributor was ok when it was new but today's spark delivery systems work better. Just changing the oil and going racing is pretty nice. OTOH I could work on the kent and probably would be afraid to tear into the fit.

[OneWayOut]

The engine part of the kit is around $7-8k.

I'm not sure I understand. This website clearly lists the engine only as $3225. Is that not correct?
https://hpd.honda.com/store/shop/ope..._10000f21sa200

Does anyone have a actual listing of the separate parts of the kit? Nobody can make an informed opinion without the actual facts.

[alangbaker]

F21S Kit BOM_RF99_18.pdfF21S Kit BOM_RF99_18.pdf

I'm not sure I understand. This website clearly lists the engine only as $3225. Is that not correct?
https://hpd.honda.com/store/shop/ope..._10000f21sa200

Does anyone have a actual listing of the separate parts of the kit? Nobody can make an informed opinion without the actual facts.

That engine is a stock Honda Fit engine as it comes for putting into... ...a Honda Fit! It needs a bunch of specialized parts...

Dry sump pan, scavenge pump, intake plenum—the list is long.

As it happens, I have a copy of the price list that I received in April last year from Honda, and I've attached it.

[David Clubine]

I really don't know what Ford engine is now being used in England today but i am sure it could have been used in the USA too.

It is being used in North America today, it is the kent engine, all other iterations died in England.....

[OneWayOut]

As it happens, I have a copy of the price list that I received in April last year from Honda

Thanks! Here's the text conversion of the document.

Part               Description                         QuantityPrice   AssemblyPackage Discount




06000F21SC201      KIT RF99 COMPLETE (everything listed       1                16912.14




10000F21SA200      ENGINE ASSY                                1 3225.41




06100F21SC201      KIT ENGINE CONV (includes items from       1                10818.21




12310F21SA000      COVERCYLN HEAD                             1   33.62
15100F21SA200      PUMP ASSYOIL SCAVENGE                      1 2428.07
90241FC4YA000      NUTM20X1.5 THIN HEX                        2   12.46
11200F21SC210      OIL PANDRY SUMP                            1 1851.62
17344F21SA201      RESTRICTOR 30.5 MM                         1   42.72
17250FC4YA000      ASSYKN RC-1920 AIR FILTER                  1    28.8
17300F21SA200      ASSYTHROTTLE                               1  432.08




15200F21SA200      KIT ENGINE OIL ACC                         1           34.55
19312F21SA200      PLUGMANIFOLD                               1    6.47
90001P70           0 BOLTFLG (10X10.5)                        1    3.04
15262F21SA200      RESTRICTOR2.0MM BREATHER                   1    15.4
91319PAAA01        O-RING13X1.5                               1    2.58
91319FC4YA000      O-RING 6.8X1.9                             1    7.07




17100F21SA200      KIT INTAKE MANIFOLD                        1          988.24
17210F21SA210      MANIFOLDINTAKE                             1   939.4
17215F21SA211      BRKTINTAKE MANIFOLD TH CABLE               1   22.44
17216F21SA201      BRKTINTAKE MANIFOLD SUPPORT                1   15.45
958010803008       BOLT FLANGE (8X30)                         5    5.43
957010801808       BOLTFLANGE (8X18)                          2    1.66
90112FC4YW500      BOLT WASHERSOCKET M5X12                    4    3.86




18700F21SA200      KIT EGR                                    1           39.27
18711F21SA210      PLATEEGR VALVE                             1   20.02
18712F21SA210      PLATEEGR PORT                              1   19.25




19300F21SA200      KIT ENGINE COOLING SYSTEM                  1          343.59
19320F21SA200      CASE COMPTHERMOSTAT                        1   47.56
19310F21SA211      MANIFOLDWATER OUT                          1  267.96
19501F21SA210      PLUGM20X1                                  1   28.07




32100F21SA210      KITENGINE ELECTRICAL                       1         1526.61
32110F21SA210      HARNENG MAIN                               1 1308.29
36531RCAA02        SENSORLAF FR                               1  167.69
37880PDAE01        SENSORAIR TEMP                             1   38.38
31110FC4YB000      BELTACG                                    1   12.25




06300F21SA201      KIT SENSOR                                 1          745.78
32111F21SA200      SUB HARNENG                                1  429.66
37260FC4YA000      SENSOR150PSI PRESSURE                      2   268.8
37870RWCA01        SENSOR ASSYTW                              1   34.09
91969FC4YA000      FITTING1-8 NPT TO PT ADAPTER               1   13.23




31000F21SA200      KIT ALTERNATOR                             1          496.41
31100F21SA200      ASSY ACG                                   1   299.6
31141F21SA210      PULLEYACG                                  1  113.51
958010803008       BOLT FLANGE (8X30)                         1    1.09
9405008080         NUT FLANGE 8MM                             1    0.45
934010806008       BOLTFLANGE8X60                             1    1.19
90421FC4YA200      WASHERPLAIN M8                             1    4.03
90336FC2Y0001      BOLT KNOCK 8X36                            1   46.68
31105F21SA210      BRKTACG                                    1   29.86




32200F21SA201      KIT CHASSIS ELECTRICAL                     1          2724.9
37800F21SA210      UNIT ASSYENGINE CONTROL                    1 1318.09
32210F21SA200      HARNCHASSIS                                1  1378.3
05400FC4YA000      SERVICE MANUAL2009 FIT *NLA                1       0
91723FC4YA000      CONN ASSY4P M(1445389-1)                   1   28.52




11000F21SA201      KIT HARDWARE DRY SUMP                      1          291.52
11221F21SA210      PLATEBAFFLE                                1  102.29
15643F21SA200      SEALOIL INLET                              1   26.18
15180F21SA210      STRAINER COMPSCAV FILTER                   2  112.27
90654FC4YA000      STUD 3/8-16-24x3.15                        2    6.66
91347FC4YA001      O-RING1.778X14 (VITON)                     2    0.56
90110FC4YA400      BOLTBUTTON HEAD M4X10                      7    1.37
90108FC4YB400      BOLTBUTTON HD M4X8                         7    1.37
91451FC4YA300      O-RING2.946X23.47 VITON                    2    0.67
92900060180E       BOLTSTUD 2 6X18                            2    2.33
90206FC4YK000      NUTSELF-LOCK(5-16 UNF)                     2    1.93
21904FC4YA600      NUTKAYLOCK M6X1.0                          2     4.2
91973FC4YA000      ADAPTER FITTING-10 ORB MALE                1   18.23
91975FC4YA000      PORT PLUG-8 INTERNAL HEX                   1    7.49
11241F21SA201      WASHER10.3X20X1                            1    0.14
11242F21SA200      FLANGE BOLT M10x14                         1    2.58
90422FC4YA000      WASHER10X19X3                              4    3.25




06200F21SC201      RF99 Chassis Conv  (includes everyth       1                 5545.91




04636F21SC210      COVERENGINE                                1   300.3
23200F21SC240      SHAFTINPUT                                 1   546.7
32212F21SA200      SUB HARN FUEL PUMP                         1  198.34




15900F21SC200      KIT CHASSIS OIL                            1          290.01
91972FC4YA000      90 DEG SWIVEL FITTING-12 ORB               1   48.85
91974FC4YA000      FILTER-10 IN-LINE                          1   47.95
91979FC4YA000      FEMALE COUPLING-10 90 DEG                  1   19.22
91980FC4YA000      HOSE END FITTING-10 STRAIGHT               1   12.77
91981FC4YA000      CLAMP-8 PUSH-ON HOSE                       2    2.32
91984FC4YA000      HOSE-12 BULK                               4   44.86
91985FC4YA000      HOSE-10 BULK                               3   29.78
91986FC4YA000      HOSE-8 PUSH-ON BULK                        2    9.18
91970FC4YA000      ALLENSOCKET PLUG 44204                     2    3.67
91992FC4YA000      HOSE END FITTING-12 90 DEG                 1   31.63
91993FC4YA000      90 DEG HOSE END-10                         1   26.21
91994FC4YA000      FITTING-6 FEMALE TO -8 MALE                1    8.15
91995FC4YA000      FITTING-8 FEMALE TO -8 BARB                1    5.43




22500F21SC200      KIT CLUTCH RELEASE BEARING                 1          148.83
22512F21SC200      SPACERCLUTCH RLS BEARING                   1  104.72
22501FC4YB000      BEARINGCLUTCH RLS                          1   27.38
91322FC4YB000      O-RING 1.5X34                              1    6.57
90194FC4YB000      BOLTSOCKET 1/4-20X2-1/2                    2    0.95
90416FC3Y0000      WASHERPLAIN (1/4)                          2    9.21




50500F21SC200      KIT ENGINE ADAPTER                         1          303.29
92900120550E       BOLTSTUD M12X55                            1    1.19
11001F21SC210      ADAPTERENGINE MISSION                      1  263.74
11003F21SA200      DOWELBELLHOUSING                           2   20.14
92900120280E       BOLT STUD M12X28                           1    2.24
9405012080         NUT FLANGE 12MM                            2    2.08
9430114200         DOWEL PIN14X20                             2    2.24
957011206008       BOLTFLANGE 12x60                           2    3.11
957011206508       BOLTFLANGE 12X65                           1    2.09
957011002508       BOLTFLANGE 10X25                           1     1.1
91827FC4YA000      BOLTSOCKET M10X1.5X50                      3    2.18
91828FC4YA000      BOLTSOCKET 3/8X16X3                        2    2.07
957011004008       BOLTFLANGE 10X40                           1     1.1




50600F21SC200      KIT FRONT ENGINE MOUNT                     1         1036.99
50620F21SC220      MOUNT COMPFRONT ENGINE                     1  766.15
50610F21SC200      MOUNTFRONT LWR ENG                         1   238.7
90252FC4YA000      NUTSELF-LOCK(3/8-24 UNF)                   2    2.46
50624F21SA200      HATENGINE MOUNT TOP                        1   22.33
90192FC4YA000      BOLT SOCKET M12X30                         1     2.8
90191FC4YA000      BOLT SOCKET M12X40                         1     3.5
9405012080         NUT FLANGE 12MM                            1    1.04




16200F21SB200      KIT CHASSIS FUEL                           1         1068.29
16201F21SA211      HSGPRESSURE REGULATOR                      1   254.1
16700FC4YA000      PUMP ASSYFUEL                              1   76.47
17517FC4YA000      FILTER COMPFUEL PUMP                       1    11.2
16201FC4YA010      FILTERFUEL                                 1   48.45
16204FC4YA000      HOSE5-16 SUBMERSIBLE FUEL                  1   17.26
16205FC4YA001      HOSE1-4 EXTERNAL FUEL                     12   25.03
90423FC4YA000      WASHERCRUSH                                2    0.64
91907FC4YA000      REDUCERDASH 6 TO DASH 4                    2   12.77
91909FC4YA000      ADAPTOR5-16 BARB TO-4 ORB                  1   12.18
91821FC4YA000      FITTINGDASH 4 PUSH LOK                     3   12.22
91823FC4YA000      FITTINGDASH 4 PUSH LOK 45                  3   34.78
91956FC4YA000      CLAMP32-50 HOSE                            1     2.8
91934FC4YA000      NUTDASH 4                                  2    4.06
91906FC4YA000      ADAPTORDASH 6 (1-8 NPT PORT)               1    8.68
16202FC4YA000      PORTFUEL SAMPLE                            1      14
16203FC4YA000      ADAPTORFUEL SAMPLE PORT                    1    19.6
16717RAA           30 CONNECTORFUEL FEED 8E                   1    1.61
16726PWA           42 COVER BFUEL CONNECTOR                   1    2.34
Y160ASMGE50        SETREGULATOR ASSY                          1   20.82
91971FC4YA020      CLAMPDASH 4 PUSH-ON                       11   12.17
91423FC4YA000      O-RING1.5X5                                1    0.11
16720F21SC200      COMPFUEL FEED PIPE                         1     462
91991FC4YA200      CABLE TIETY5242M                           2     0.2
91824FC4YA000      ADAPTOR-4 45 BULKHEAD                      1     6.8
91825FC4YA000      NUT7/16X20 BULKHEAD                        1    1.71
91826FC4YA000      FITTING1/8NPT TO 44332 BARB                1    6.15
91374FC4YA000      O-RING1.78X7.66                            1    0.14




18000F21SB200      KIT EXHAUST                                1          822.09
18100F21SC200      COMPPRIMARY EXHAUST                        1  589.78
18200F21SC200      COMPSECONDARY EXHAUST                      1   229.8
90114FC4YM600      BOLTSOCKET 6X14                            1    0.42
21904FC4YA600      NUTKAYLOCK M6X1.0                          1     2.1




19500F21SB200      KIT CHASSIS COOLING SYSTEM                 1         1447.29
19101F21SC220      TANK COMPHEADER                            1   492.8
19103F21SC200      THATHEADER TANK                            2   25.41
91980FC4YA000      HOSE END FITTING-10 STRAIGHT               1   12.77
19311F21SC210      ELBOWTHERMOSTAT HOUSING                    1  292.37
91990FC4YC200      CAP HEADERTANK                             1   20.54
19522F21SC200      PIPELOWER REAR WATER                       1    94.2
19531F21SC200      PIPEUPPER FRONT WATER                      1   87.78
19521F21SC220      PIPEUPPER REAR WATER                       1  199.89
91956FC4YA000      CLAMP32-50 HOSE                           14    39.2
91957FC4YA000      CLAMP20-32 HOSE                            2    2.41
91959FC4YA000      CUSHION CLAMP1.125 INCH                    2   27.22
19525FC4YA000      HOSE90 ELBOW 0.5" BLUE                     1   17.33
19529FC4YA000      HOSE1.125 TO 1.25 INCH BLUE                1   19.78
19527FC4YA000      HOSE1.25 INCH BLUE                         2    38.3
957010801608       BOLT FLANGE 8X16                           2    1.66
9405008080         NUT FLANGE 8MM                             2     0.9
90421FC4YA000      WASHER PLAIN M8                            1    0.73
19530FC4YA000      HOSE135 ELBOW 1.25 INCH BLACK              1   29.46
91941FC4YA000      PUSH-ON1/8 NPT TP 44200                    1    3.15
91115FC4YA800      GROMMETAIRBOX MNT(NITRILE)                 2    0.84
91996FC4YA000      44263 FEMALE PIPEWELD ON                   1    4.69
91997FC4YA000      44263 NPTMALE TO -10                       1    5.15
91998FC4YA000      HOSE END -1045 DEG                         1   24.26
91970FC4YA000      ALLENSOCKET PLUG 44204                     3     5.5
90194FC4YB000      BOLTSOCKET 1/4-20X2-1/2                    2    0.95




                                                                21407.8

It looks like the engine and chassis packages are discounted 10%, and the entire kit is discounted 20%.


It is interesting that the new K20 package being offered by HPD is half the price, but that's a completely different thread...

[John Robinson II]

A $600 wrecker engine was outside pole at the Runoffs and won the Sebring Super Tour event in January.

Greg, you may want to double check your info. My understanding is that the engine in the Sebring car is a “knacker” engine. I could really not give 2frog farts about any of this, as you stated before, corner speed is the key. I will tell you that from a cockpit view, and also the data, the Honda’s have more bottom end and pull better off the corners, the Kent’s, more top end and potentially more top speed. But they do take more care and feeding. Everything has its cost.

John

fwiw, the car that won the homestead major was 2 seconds off the pace until the race.....and then we couldn’t hardly draft him, hmmmm.

[problemchild]

Greg, you may want to double check your info. My understanding is that the engine in the Sebring car is a “knacker” engine. I could really not give 2frog farts about any of this, as you stated before, corner speed is the key. I will tell you that from a cockpit view, and also the data, the Honda’s have more bottom end and pull better off the corners, the Kent’s, more top end and potentially more top speed. But they do take more care and feeding. Everything has its cost.

John

fwiw, the car that won the homestead major was 2 seconds off the pace until the race.....and then we couldn’t hardly draft him, hmmmm.

There was a Saturday race winner John. I am well aware of the facts.

There were also 2 races at Homestead, won by the same 2 drivers/cars/engines as Sebring.

For those that don't know, John does an awesome job racing in SCCA Majors, and Super Tour events, running his 30+ year old car, kent-powered, against the pro teams with their young guns getting extra winter track time. John ran in the top group at all 4 Florida races, against drivers some of whom were 1/3 his age, setting fastest lap in two of the races.

[problemchild]

I'm not sure I understand. This website clearly lists the engine only as $3225. Is that not correct?
https://hpd.honda.com/store/shop/ope..._10000f21sa200

Does anyone have a actual listing of the separate parts of the kit? Nobody can make an informed opinion without the actual facts.

Do you get the facts on the Cricket Farm website? Or the Quicksilver website? Or the Elite website?

Email HPD or pick up the phone! As you would with any engine supplier or engine parts supplier.
grmsadmin@hra.com 661-702-7849
I don't publicize my business services pricing on my website. If someone wants to know, they initiate communication with me. I do not consider that to be a conspiracy.

What informed opinion do you have to make? Internet hate is generally about emotion, spite, jealousy, rage, talking points, and has little to do with informed opinion. While there would certainly be member input into allowing other engines, I would expect SCCA to substitute part suppliers without member input.

If you have genuine interest in going the Honda route, then contact me directly and I can explain the process. The best way would be to buy a car with that engine. Most Formula F or F1600 cars from the last 20 years will have Honda engines. Skip Streets car, for example, is a killer deal!

For those confused about the process ....
The process that has been in place for 12 years or so:
A) If you have a Honda powered FF car, and want to replace the engine:
You buy a crate engine from HPD or a wrecker engine from a FIT street car. You then put the HPD parts from your existing engine on you replacement engine and reinstall. The crate engine would likely be $4K with taxes, shipping, etc. Personally, I am now going the wrecker option.
B) You buy a Honda powered FF as a roller, or want a complete engine as a spare:
The same core engine process as in (A) but you also need to buy the HPD engine parts, presumably around $8K.
C) You buy a kent powered FF and convert to Honda powered:
The same process as (B) but you also need to buy the chassis kit (bell-housing, input shaft, ECU, wiring harness, exhaust, etc) which may be the big $15+K numbers that you hear being thrown around as outrageous. This number is including the crate engine and engine kit. Keep in mind, if you had a competitive FF car, that you could sell your kent engine, exhaust, and ancillary components for $5-10K, so your net cost is a completely undefinable value.

The current problem is that HPD has run out of some components (oil pans being one) and our community is looking for someone to manufacture components and provide parts availability going forward. Although a solution appears to be in sight, the dozen or so looking for pans now, and the next dozen, will be on hold for some period. Any conversation on this forum about going to another alternate engine would be discussion about taking the class into it's 7th generation with a 4th engine option.

[johnhafkenschiel]

Greg, you may want to double check your info. My understanding is that the engine in the Sebring car is a “knacker” engine. I could really not give 2frog farts about any of this, as you stated before, corner speed is the key. I will tell you that from a cockpit view, and also the data, the Honda’s have more bottom end and pull better off the corners, the Kent’s, more top end and potentially more top speed. But they do take more care and feeding. Everything has its cost.

John

fwiw, the car that won the homestead major was 2 seconds off the pace until the race.....and then we couldn’t hardly draft him, hmmmm.

Two seconds? I wonder if anyone noticed the team in hazmat suits fueling that car before the main event...

[Messenger Racing]

No need to tell the FIT drivers to change - I think we are happy. I also love the Kent cars - so now everyone can be offended.

I think at the club level a top Kent is faster in a straight line and a top Honda is more reliable and more torque - tell me which track and I will tell you which I want for the day. But wait - doesn't that mean they are pretty darn close??? Parity is probably never identical in club racing - Parity IMO is acceptable compatability. We have that - we win - it worked out - it is ok for us to be friends!!

That being said long term there will be another generation and a class death date most likely. We just don't know which will come first. I have been a participant in the death of S2 and others. It happens - but I am laying my money down now and voting - I vote to race at the national level - my buddies race vintage - we still talk and don't even run the same motors - it may be due to RaceDog.

Anyway - my story on costs and a build I am finishing this week:

I am just now finishing my second Fit. It started life as an ex-pro 02 VD - Zetec car. The goal was a top shelf SCCA majors/FRP quality vehicle without the buy-in of a new chassis. This HPD build was done from what was probably one of the last 3-4 kits Honda sold - I bought the whole VD kit including motor mounts, input shaft, bell adaptor, fuel cell kit, all plumbing, all three wiring harnesses needed. I won't say what I paid because my wife is in the room and I really don't have the records at hand. The high numbers in this thread look correct. These were publicly available numbers - I had no issue getting specific pricing when I wanted it.

I bought a proper Fit/VD tail instead of the patch piece that HPD sells and so that was an extra $1,000 premium. Add in the Carbon HPD nose/crushbox and shock cover for another $$.

I already owned the proper Tilton HRB so I didn't spend that money. All in not counting paint I am right at $22,000 for new parts to do the conversion. I started with the new engine from HPD since I was purchasing the whole kit. They way they priced it you got the biggest discount for purchasing the whole kit and then net effect was I paid $600 for the motor over not buying the full kit - marketing at its best - I know but it was what I preferred anyway.

I sent the motor off and had it stripped, checked, re-assembled and verified by a pro. (edited - if I needed a replacement motor unit I would be very comfortable with a junkyard motor and my kit parts-JM)

I love the kit and love the motor - I studied making this car a Kent version but wanted the known reliability and quality. Yes there were a few late night scratched heads and phone calls back to HPD but it worked out and I knew they were backing down some of these resources more than a year prior to starting this car - I made the decision to build it. I absolutly agree when you need a part and can't get it for your racing addiction - that is a CRISIS - I had a few as well.

I figure I have about $5-7,000 more expense (I would have bought the bodywork either way) than the new build top shelf Kent plus new conversion parts (header, motor mounts, starter, tail, clutch, ignition, etc) - rough guess and I think the car is worth every bit of that difference in the marketplace today so I do view it as an acceptable risk. Long term operating costs for the class are the best I have seen in my 40 years of sportsracers and formula cars so no complaint there. And I love driving these cars - kent or Honda - the class is a great class.

A few photos of the 76 car - hope to debut at Majors or FRP this season. You have to figure out who the driver is (not me)!!

[Joefisherff]

Greg, you may want to double check your info. My understanding is that the engine in the Sebring car is a “knacker” engine. I could really not give 2frog farts about any of this, as you stated before, corner speed is the key. I will tell you that from a cockpit view, and also the data, the Honda’s have more bottom end and pull better off the corners, the Kent’s, more top end and potentially more top speed. But they do take more care and feeding. Everything has its cost.

John

fwiw, the car that won the homestead major was 2 seconds off the pace until the race.....and then we couldn’t hardly draft him, hmmmm.

My attempts to provide some reliability to the Kent engines via rules requests have been rejected soundly. One was to provide a aftermarket forged piston with identical dimensions to stock piston without an engine builders name on it for half the price and that was rejected. Next was to remove cast from the crankshaft description so we could source a dimensionally identical to stock crank versus the non-compliant SCAT cast crank and that was rejected due to a possible perceived performance advantage. The rule makers do not reach out to John who runs nationals for input but rather engine builders who have a vested interest in modifying the blocks, selling the non-compliant cranks (not dimensionally identical to stock per the rules), SCCA enterprises who gets a cut of the action. I would really like to see over the past 10 years the national wins by engine and then we can have the discussion that there is parity.

[tstrong]

My attempts to provide some reliability to the Kent engines via rules requests have been rejected soundly. One was to provide a aftermarket forged piston with identical dimensions to stock piston without an engine builders name on it for half the price and that was rejected. Next was to remove cast from the crankshaft description so we could source a dimensionally identical to stock crank versus the non-compliant SCAT cast crank and that was rejected due to a possible perceived performance advantage. The rule makers do not reach out to John who runs nationals for input but rather engine builders who have a vested interest in modifying the blocks, selling the non-compliant cranks (not dimensionally identical to stock per the rules), SCCA enterprises who gets a cut of the action. I would really like to see over the past 10 years the national wins by engine and then we can have the discussion that there is parity.

I am not here to argue Kent vs fit, or engine builder vs joe racer but can we please stop using “reliability” as the reason some want to change the Kent rules (and especially when talking cranks and pistons). There is NO reliability issue with the currently available and SCCA approved cranks and pistons. You can argue cost, or compliance, or single source, or... and everyone has a different opinion on that, but there is not a reliability issue. Todd

[Bill Manofsky]

I raced a 1.6L Maita for 4 years. Got my engines from Junkyards and had them rebuilt to OEM specs for less than $900. In 8 race weekends I had no DNF's except for one where I misses a flag race due to a failed 4 pole kill switch.

I really liked the Miata rev limiter that cur in at 7200RPM. It actually was my shift point coming up over the hill at T6 at Willow Springs.

I also had the pleasure of building Toyota 4AGE engines for an MR2 I raced in Lemons and Lucky Dog.

The Miata and Toyota engines are beautiful and are essentially Japanese Cosworths. There is something to be said for a DOHC EFI engine.

[problemchild]

I would really like to see over the past 10 years the national wins by engine and then we can have the discussion that there is parity.

So there is over 100 competitive Honda powered cars, and a handful of fast but part-time kent cars (JR2, Lee, Benson, Schrage, Brumbaugh) in the east. I am sure there are more good kents in the west that I don't see, but they are out-numbered significantly. The more active serious races tend to have Hondas. Any conclusion based on a study of race results is flawed, just as with comparing Pintos and Zetecs.

I am sorry that you believe all engine builders are crooks, but the engine dyno is the best comparison tool.

Joe, where do you race that indicate the kents do not have parity with Hondas. If you think results are valid input to this discussion, please provide tracks, people, dates where this is occurring. The few people I know who raced kents seriously did so by choice. They believe it was to their advantage. Your rhetoric has no foundation, but gets gobbled up by the haters who have probably never even seen a Honda in person. If your premise does have foundation, then please share it.