Costs to develop a sim track and crowdfunding

[veeracer98]

Any sims of Blackhawk Farms available? I know Grattan is not but I would sure (and others) be willing to throw in $20 to get it finished.

[Keith Carter]

I helped to get a version of Blackhawk done for Nascar Heat many many years ago. I provided track photos and feedback to the person who did the actual modeling work. It may have been converted to the original rFactor if I recall correctly, but it was very crudely done and wasn't worth racing on. To my knowledge Grattan had been worked on for the original rFactor, but never completed. I would love to see both Blackhawk and Grattan done in a modern sim like Assetto Corsa or rF2, but I'm afraid they don't exist currently to my knowledge.

[veeracer98]

I helped to get a version of Blackhawk done for Nascar Heat many many years ago. I provided track photos and feedback to the person who did the actual modeling work. It may have been converted to the original rFactor if I recall correctly, but it was very crudely done and wasn't worth racing on. To my knowledge Grattan had been worked on for the original rFactor, but never completed. I would love to see both Blackhawk and Grattan done in a modern sim like Assetto Corsa or rF2, but I'm afraid they don't exist currently to my knowledge.

Keith,

How could we get these going? Maybe set up a go fund me for some willing developer?

[Keith Carter]

Keith,

How could we get these going? Maybe set up a go fund me for some willing developer?

Unfortunately, the amount of money it would take to get a custom track done would likely be out of reach of what could be raised by some club racing guys and a crowdfunded site. I do have a line of communication with the same developer that recently did Autobahn for Assetto Corsa and rF2. I've sent him a question regarding costs, but I'm thinking it would start at the tens of thousands of dollars to get something done. He's going to take a look and see what the cost would be and let me know. He also mentioned reaching out to the track owner to see if they could back it as well. They like having things officially licensed.

[veeracer98]

Thanks, no idea it would cost that much.

[Keith Carter]

Thanks, no idea it would cost that much.

It really can vary. It depends on how accurate the customer wants it. On the high end, someone would come out to the site and with coordination of the track drive a survey vehicle on the track surface and scan the surface with a laser to create a point cloud in order to reference when creating the 3D model. I believe I heard somewhere that the cost to iRacing is $100k! Other designers can create tracks from LiDar data and supplement the design by using photos and in car video in order to get as close as a representation as possible with feedback from people who have actually driven it. That would be significantly less... The ultimate is obviously laser scanned, but it's not always practical. The design team I have contact with I believe is out of Poland who I believe uses LiDar data, but I'm not positive. I'll see what he comes back with as a dollar amount to create the track. I may be way off, which I hope I am. If they come back with a few grand, I would think we may be able to crowdfund that especially if the track owners help out.

[Keith Carter]

Ok, so I received an estimate from the sim track builders. Making an assumption that there is aerial lidar information available, they are estimating around $10,000 USD to get a high quality version into Assetto Corsa and rFactor2. They are writing up a proposal/quote for the track owner as well to see if they would be able to supplement if not fund it. If there is a demand and enough people willing to put up some cash, we can also create a crowd funding site to help the cause. I can keep track of the pledges in this post so reply to this thread and we'll see where it goes...

$100 - Keith Carter
$100 - David Satterley

[veeracer98]

Is that $10000 per track?

[Keith Carter]

Is that $10000 per track?

Do you mean per version meaning $10k for rF2 and $10k for AC? No, I'm sure that the bulk of the cost is in the design and modeling. The conversion between the two is assumed as part of the expense so both flavors of the track would be for the $10k price.

[veeracer98]

I was asking is it $10 k for grattan and $10k for blackhawk.

[Keith Carter]

Grattan wasn't discussed, but assuming that there is aerial LiDar data available for Grattan and they are provided the information they need I would think it's close to the same cost. So yes the assumption can be made that it's $10k per track.

[veeracer98]

I would be in for $100 then. How do we get it out there?

[Keith Carter]

I would be in for $100 then. How do we get it out there?

I'd think we would see if there's enough demand with this post. So far, I've got a verbal/FB/ApexSpeed pledge of about $500.

[Cameron Wagner]

$10k for a good sim track sounds reasonable. There's a lot more to it than laying some asphalt.

I built a couple of tracks for rFactor several years ago and I wasn't happy with any of them when released. The last one I did was also the most fun: Tony Rust Race Track in Namibia.

I liked building tracks that people never heard of (I wish my Ponca City GP project didn't get eaten...). At the time there was one terrible on-course video of Tony Rust and a couple of vintage photographs. I posted the unfinished project on Youtube because of a dearth of information about the place, and a guy who lived next to the track offered to take pictures for me. That rekindled interest and with his help for realism's sake I eventually finished it.

~300 hours later and we were done. And that's for a bullring of a road course that wasn't laser scanned and used off-the-shelf graphic assets for 75% of it.

I wouldn't build sim tracks again even if someone paid me to do it.

[Keith Carter]

Hi Cameron! Now that you mention it, wasn't it you that was working on Grattan for the original rFactor?

$10k for a good sim track sounds reasonable. There's a lot more to it than laying some asphalt.

I built a couple of tracks for rFactor several years ago and I wasn't happy with any of them when released. The last one I did was also the most fun: Tony Rust Race Track in Namibia.

I liked building tracks that people never heard of (I wish my Ponca City GP project didn't get eaten...). At the time there was one terrible on-course video of Tony Rust and a couple of vintage photographs. I posted the unfinished project on Youtube because of a dearth of information about the place, and a guy who lived next to the track offered to take pictures for me. That rekindled interest and with his help for realism's sake I eventually finished it.

~300 hours later and we were done. And that's for a bullring of a road course that wasn't laser scanned and used off-the-shelf graphic assets for 75% of it.

I wouldn't build sim tracks again even if someone paid me to do it.

[veeracer98]

Is there a way to get it out to the closed wheelers, bikes. go carts and otders?

[Keith Carter]

Is there a way to get it out to the closed wheelers, bikes. go carts and otders?

If they aren't a member of ApexSpeed to pledge some kind of monetary comitment, it would have to wait until it became an actual crowdfund page so that people that are members of those different groups can link to it.

[Archisim]

Bumping this thread to gauge interest for funding a version of Blackhawk Farms for Assetto Corsa that's already in progress... I'm in conversations with a track modder who was originally building the track on commission for a kart sim platform, but whose client has backed out. They're about halfway done with the track in AC right now, and are just looking for somebody or somebodies to cover their costs before they publish to RaceDepartment. We've gone back and forth a little bit on price, but it would probably be in the $1k-ish range total rather than the $10k mentioned above (gotta love what having state-funded aerial LIDAR scans does for track modding!)

They've posted a preview video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VAOztCUtOM

I know I'm a fresh face around here, but I've worked with Matt Strand to create an F600 mod for AC previously -- the F6 crowd can vouch for me. I was working on a version of Blackhawk Farms myself, but realistically it was going to be sometime next year before I got to point of having something fit for public consumption. This modder is much closer to completion.

[Keith Carter]

Awesome! Missing a lot of visuals still but looks like a great representation. If a campaign was started, I'd donate on the condition of the finished product as well as spread the word in order to hit your $1k mark for sure!

[ohyeah2389]

Hey guys, I'm the track modeler working on this latest iteration of Blackhawk Farms. The track is being developed for Kart Racing Pro and Assetto Corsa to fulfill the needs of both the superkart/shifter kart/enduro/laydown kart and auto racing communities. Archisim and I were talking over on RaceDepartment where we discovered that we were both working on the same track. My weaknesses line up with his strengths, namely in building modeling, so he'll be contributing some assets to the model.

I looked through this forum category and I see that there is another person, Johnfiat, working on a model using Race Track Builder. I don't want to step on his toes or whatever the saying is, but I believe that we'll be able to surpass his model in accuracy and detail.

The preview video is meant to show the progress on the surface model and textures. The trees are a work in progress, and obviously there are other details yet to be modeled and/or placed, such as buildings, barriers, brake distance markers, and other miscellanea.

And, yes, I will need to be paid back for my work before this track can be released. We will let you know when that time comes; we will post more pics and videos over the coming days/weeks showing our progress. We anticipate the total cost to be less than $2,000 USD. Once I have been paid the track will be free for all to download pending potential pre-release access or whatever might be set up-- we'll keep you updated on that.

Should I make another thread in this forum to catalog that progress? Also, what would you guys be comfortable in as to the "campaign", or where you would put in money? Just posting a PayPal link and trusting me to accurately track the amount put towards it would be a little opaque, don't you think?

[Keith Carter]

Should I make another thread in this forum to catalog that progress? Also, what would you guys be comfortable in as to the "campaign", or where you would put in money? Just posting a PayPal link and trusting me to accurately track the amount put towards it would be a little opaque, don't you think?

Hi Aaron,
Welcome to the forum! Yes, please make a new post to track progress as having multiple Blackhawks to run in any sim would be more than welcome. I'm not too experienced in crowdfunding projects, but I would think in order to keep the interests of investors safe would be something to the effect of a Kickstarter campaign would need to be started in order to allow people to pledge a donation if the final product is eventually released. There may be other options besides Kickstarter that would be more suited for this type of development, but something along those lines would make the most sense because, yes, just a Paypal address without any accountability wouldn't be wise and would likely impede the amount of donations you get if it seems a bit shady. Looking forward to any progress you and Brent release!

[Rick Kirchner]

the Tony Rust track looks like a real hoot. Old school - not a lot of turns and really fast!