Is PFM for me??

[PGas32]

Long time lurker here, and one who's been infatuated with PFM's for quite some time now. I'm considering making the jump, as the performance per $ seems unmatched anywhere else. But, I do have some concerns and maybe someone here can relate and offer up their own experience...

For background, I currently race in the most popular class within the Porsche Club of America. I love the large fields, close competition, friendly paddock, and that there is a clear cut championship to chase. But I've been eyeing up open wheel cars for while, and for a minimal cash outlay I could sell my Porsche and get into a PFM

Couple thoughts/concerns about the PFM:
-Where do I race it, and how large are the fields? SCCA seems like a political nightmare from what I understand, but I could race in FA as long as I'm OK with not competing for wins. FRP is another option, but I'm pretty sure they require you to have a crew, which I likely would not. Which brings me to my next question...
-Can I self-support one of these at the track by myself? Assuming it's prepped by a race shop in between events, is it possible to go solo for a race weekend? I've used support with the Porsche club, and I've also done it solo...I've found that the support isn't worth the $$$
-What are the running costs like? Any one care to share cost/hour or something along those lines?

Basically, I'm of the opinion that going PFM would mean more money and less track time & competition, but as high a level of performance that I'll ever achieve without hitting the Powerball - any one have any thoughts to confirm/deny this?

Thanks!

EDIT: I should add that while I think PFM is the best bang for the buck, I also perceive it to be safer than the tube-frame classes due to the carbon tub...I've got two little kids who want me to stick around for a while longer, so safety is paramount. Am I right in my thinking here? And possibly irresponsible to even consider open wheel?

[lowside67]

I've seen your posts on Rennlist, nice to see you here.

A few thoughts off the top - you are unlikely to see large fields for any of the fastest formula/prototype classes; my theory is that the skill required to drive at that level, plus the perception of the cars requiring a bunch of specialized knowledge to run, keeps people spending more money to go slower in the fast GT classes. Formula F(ord), and Formula Vee are the two exceptions to this with pretty decent sized fields no matter where you go in the country. To your question about running these cars solo, I think it can be done, but I have found that a second hand (even an unskilled friend or my wife) makes things much easier. Just having somebody to pass you something while you are getting belted in or to help roll the car around helps immensely.

Before buying my current car, I also took a good look at PFMs. They are undoubtedly great value - full carbon chassis, generally come with large spares packages, and very quick for low-mid $30s. However, they are that way because they are orphans - the same reason that F1000s are largely sitting and can be bought at a fraction of the price that they commanded when they had a full road race presence in the early-mid 2010s.

It sounds like you are clear, but to remove any doubt, a PFM is going to get stomped at any SCCA race weekend that a "real" Formula Atlantic shows up with an equal driver. I am not sure that racing without any hope of setting a record, taking a class win, etc is going to feel like a worthwhile pursuit after a short period of time.

While biased, I feel like you should look at a Prototype 2 ("P2") sports racer, generally on a Stohr chassis. Depending on level of prep and competitiveness, they would range from mid 20s to mid 40s, and run lap times that would generally be comparable to a PFM but in a larger and more well subscribed class. It is also my belief that the bodywork around the driver helps protect the driver, and also makes any race contact less likely to be catastrophic since you don't hook wheels in the same way as a formula car. This is a fairly well subscribed class in SCCA and has some close but respectful racing.

You might like Tim Day Jr's video from this year's runoffs:
https://vimeo.com/474424321

Finally, a prototype is more likely to be able to participate in lapping days, time trials, etc as generally they are considered to be safer to be on track with sedans. Your decision but I like having more options where to play.

-Mark

[HazelNut]

they're great cars. bang for the buck is off the charts on them. I've got two in my shop here in NY (long island) if you want to come take a look at one in person

[mikey]

I jumped from corvette to formula cars although I started with FE and then PFM. Agree best value for money. You are stuck in FA but doesn't mean you can't have fun. SVRA eligible now too. Relatively cheap to run and easy to maintain yourself. I did track weekends without help but always better to have a helping hand.

biggest expenses will be tires but no worse than Porsche. Motor rebuild around 2500 miles. Gearbox will go a looooong time if you shift properly.

Will never be large fields. So up to you if you can have fun without large fields.

[douglap1]

Another Rennlister here - welcome to the dark side.

Lowside has some excellent advice - I'll add a few things from my experience:

1- ANY "real" race car, particularly with aero grip, is so much beyond production based cars, that it will be a whole new learning experience. You may want to consider renting a car for an SCCA event or vintage racing event before committing to a class. At least attend a few races, and talk to some competitors or offer to crew to learn.

2- A PFM car may be uncompetitive against a real FA car, but they are still damn fast. I race in FC, and when I am on track with the PFM cars, I have to watch my mirrors pretty closely as they come up on us fast. (Now I know how the FV guys feel when I come up on them). As an example of FA car capability, can you imagine going though Turn 1 at Road Atlanta without lifting? That is what a top FA car can do.

3- You might want to consider the S2000 class in vintage racing. It's pretty popular, and uses aluminum monocoque chassis. No aero grip, but that would probably make it easier for learning on. S2000's used to have their own class in SCCA before the P2 class rules made them obsolete. Now they all run vintage.

Good luck in your journey.

[Bardahl77]

If I wanted to go to the wings groups, I think I'd start in FC, get an idea of the effect of wings on aero balance, center of pressure, etc. I think being a bit slower would let you see how the limits are affected without things happening so quickly. And you can always sell it and move up the next year if you felt comfortable.

Now excuse me, I need to bid on a Crossle F5000 car....

[holmberg]

This PFM was just offered for sale today. It's near you, in PA. $34,000.

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...-Formula-Mazda

[old 59]

By no means do I wish to disrespect the Porsche Racing group, but a PFM is A LOT of car for an open-wheel newcomer. Play safe.

[PGas32]

[QUOTE=lowside67;615443I am not sure that racing without any hope of setting a record, taking a class win, etc is going to feel like a worthwhile pursuit after a short period of time.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Mark - that's my biggest concern, and obviously a decision that only I can make. Also, I'll look more into P2 - I saw one up close earlier this year and was quite interested!

they're great cars. bang for the buck is off the charts on them. I've got two in my shop here in NY (long island) if you want to come take a look at one in person

I may take you up on that, if for no other reason than to see if I fit...I'm ~ 6'2", 195

This PFM was just offered for sale today. It's near you, in PA. $34,000.

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...-Formula-Mazda

Thanks, I saw that and have been in touch with a gentleman in OH as well. I believe there's one up in MA too, so some choices should I decide to go this route

By no means do I wish to disrespect the Porsche Racing group, but a PFM is A LOT of car for an open-wheel newcomer. Play safe.

Completely understand. I run at the pointier end in my class, but that's with twice the weight, 80% of the power, and no aero. The physics are the same, but the limits are much higher and I'm sure things happen in a hurry. I'm confident enough in my attitude and process that I'll be able to make it work.

Thanks to everyone who responded, both here and via PM. Obviously I have to ultimately make up my own mind, but it's always nice to get the input of those who have been there before!

[HazelNut]

You’ll fit no prob the tub is big on them. I’m 6’1” 200lbs when I raced mine regularly. Been porkier and fit too. If you want to come take a look PM me.

[lowside67]

Thanks, I saw that and have been in touch with a gentleman in OH as well. I believe there's one up in MA too, so some choices should I decide!

Nothing against that car specifically but be aware the PFM comes in the older chassis and the newer “S Bend” tubs. From my understanding, the S Bend is a superior car and given that they are usually priced similarly, I think a newer car seems a worthwhile effort.

-Mark

[Fred Michael]

Nothing against that car specifically but be aware the PFM comes in the older chassis and the newer “S Bend” tubs. From my understanding, the S Bend is a superior car and given that they are usually priced similarly, I think a newer car seems a worthwhile effort.

-Mark

The S-Bend chassis update was instituted to eliminate an issue with tubs cracking at the 90* bend at the front of the tub. Later tubs have the S-Bend built in. There is no performance difference.

[racerdad2]

Nothing beats the excitement & thrill of racing in open wheel ! Yes, it's more dangerous. Contact can be catastrophic. That said, nothing compares to open wheel, side x side into & thru a corner. Start slow on test days. Build your speed. First race... start at the back, avoid the 5 wide into the first turn

[Robert Finlayson]

I would advise you to check out FE2. Not quite as fast but pretty close. Way more competition though, and everyone has the same car. It is a tube frame though. Racing is much more fun when you actually are racing someone!

[M.Sauce]

We have about 8-15 FA's running in the SW Division SCCA most cars are PFM's. It is a great car and very reliable. Parts are readily available and there is nothing that has the same speed for the same dollars.FE is also a good bang for the buck and in many parts of the country there are good fields. PFM is a much safer car because of the carbon tub.

[eboucher]

Understand that this thread is a couple of months old but thought I’d chime in just for fun. As a former FC guy I don’t really have an interest in getting back into the sport in something slower, which leaves FA, P1/P2, PFM, F1000, FE2, or back to FC. First off, at least from the outside looking in it seems that most of the open wheel classes in SCCA are fading away, with the exception of FE, FF and FV, so that right there has me thinking twice about ANY of the classes. Keep in mind this is from the perspective of a West Coast guy. Don’t know what the situation is elsewhere in the country, and I also know that the faster the cars get, the fewer of them there tends to be. This has always been the case.

I absolutely loved FC but not really sure where the class is these days. Pinto cars aren’t competitive, Zetec stuff is getting harder to find. Mazda power in club racing now? Honestly not sure. Been away from the class for too long to know what the engine and chassis situation is.

I’m a big fan of spec classes where driver skill rather than dollars determines competitiveness so FE2 is quite interesting, though you’re looking in the 50k range for an updated car. That’s pretty high for basically the slowest of the “wings and slicks” classes, but on balance given the low operating costs it’s not a bad option.

A traditional FA would be amazing but they’re just way too expensive for most of us mere mortals, both in upfront costs as well as maintenance and operating. I’ve always been a fan of the P1/P2 cars (been around long enough that I still think CSR/DSR), and unfortunately now that the Stohrs are somewhat affordable they’re no longer competitive in P1, though I understand they can make a pretty good P2 car so that may be a decent option.

That brings me to F1000 and PFM, both cars that I lusted after when I was racing FC back in 2010/11. They’re both pretty affordable to buy upfront now (relatively speaking of course), and from what I understand the PFM is pretty affordable to maintain. I’ve heard that the motor costs for the F1000s can be pretty bad though which contributed to the death of the class. Neither has their own class any longer (don’t think PFM ever did) and neither are competitive in FA. I can’t get into a class knowing that I can’t be competitive. My brain just doesn’t work that way.

So...Hmmm. Similar to the OP I’m just undecided on where to spend my money, or whether to spend it at all. The latter would certainly keep the wife happy.

Cheers guys. Here’s to a better 2021 whatever you happen to be racing!

Eric

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Fight the "Fade"

Most open wheel classes participation is geographically focused. That happens because people buy in to what they see being raced.

Open wheel classes are admittedly low count. But what makes it worse is the way SCCA counts cars.
Basically, they only count entries in Majors events. Period. That to them is participation and all that counts.
Likewise, I don't believe FRP numbers count for participation although (like regionals) they are part of the runoffs path. Makes NO sense.

F1000
In 2018, because the runoffs were at Sears, all the F1000 guys east of the Rockies decided they weren't going and participated in an F1000 series that did not attend any Majors races. I think there was 1 Majors entry. SCCA declared the class on probation. People got pissed, stuck with the 'other' series and F1000 was merged into FA at the end of 2019. I don't think I've seen one on the west coast since 2015.

FC
I was concerned for FC last year as our west coast 'Pacific' series schedule only 1 Majors last year but their is a big revival going on. Our west coast participation is still strong but it didn't 'count' as much. I was told years ago that the problem with FC is the engine problem. Not just the P/Z issue, it's 'what is the next engine?'. The MZR is a possibility but what was floated to me was the K20. I had an FC roller looking for an engine so I called HPD to volunteer the chassis. Nope - not interested - not doing FC. Too busy with F3/F4/FF.

FE/FE2
I've always liked this class but on the west coast there are maybe 4 or 5 active cars? And then, when they introduced FE2 everyone had to 're-buy' their car (spend $15-20k) to convert. Great class but the buy-in ballooned. Because it's Scca-Spec it'll never be in trouble. If it wasn't for the numbers.

PFM
Another pocketed participation class. I think there was 5 of them in SFR in 2019. They raced as a group within FA (which is what F1000 has to do). Lots of car but I don't think it'll ever get numbers. Does Nasa still have a class for them?

F3/F4
They are starting to show up. Not many. But, I don't think anyone is staying in that class more that a couple seasons.

FM
There are more FMs (FX) than FE2s or FAs (PFMs) in next weeks season opening. Makes no sense.
https://calclub.motorsportreg.com/in...0DD34C2761D9C3

To me it's always been about the numbers and consistency. On the west coast that's still FC. (P2 is probably 2nd)

[CGOffroad]

So...Hmmm. Similar to the OP I’m just undecided on where to spend my money, or whether to spend it at all.

The latter would certainly keep the wife happy.

Look into what it is you actually want to do with a car. Are you opposed to towing a race car more than 4 hours? If so, look at what cars are populous in your area and get one of those.

Are you wanting to compete in RunOff's? If so, look into classes and participation levels at the RunOff's. Which class shows potential for growth and stability of participation over the next few years?


As to the money aspect.... depends what situation you want to be in when your 'ticket gets punched.' You want to leave behind a bank account half full of money that is willed to your heirs to spend foolishly? Or, spend some of it foolishly yourself and make as many deposits to your personal bank account of memories as possible?

[eboucher]

Or, spend some of it foolishly yourself and make as many deposits to your personal bank account of memories as possible?

^^^^^^^^^^^^ This!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If only the better half agreed with that philosophy. Though to be fair to her she supports me pretty much whatever I decide to do.

[lowside67]

I’m a big fan of spec classes where driver skill rather than dollars determines competitiveness so FE2 is quite interesting, though you’re looking in the 50k range for an updated car. That’s pretty high for basically the slowest of the “wings and slicks” classes, but on balance given the low operating costs it’s not a bad option.

I’ve always been a fan of the P1/P2 cars (been around long enough that I still think CSR/DSR), and unfortunately now that the Stohrs are somewhat affordable they’re no longer competitive in P1, though I understand they can make a pretty good P2 car so that may be a decent option.

P1 is definitely an arms race and I would say that while the right Stohr on the right day can be competitive, the auto powered cars have a lot of potential that is not yet tapped versus the development the Stohrs have already seen. $50k will buy you a P1 Stohr, but probably not a top of the line one, and that is definitely needed to run against the latest auto powered cars.

P2 on the other hand is less far gone. This year at Runoffs the auto powered cars showed to be the fastest in pure lap time but didn't actually win due to crashes and mechanicals. Subsequent to that, they have been given a bit less restrictor so the gap might have closed to a Stohr, and on a tight track they were probably already very closely matched. Suffice it to say, a well prepped WF1 is a good car to have in P2 any day, and the best car on some days. There is a nice example of a WF1 for sale here in the mid 30s that is not quite fully state of the art, but close - might be some room for negotiation and it'd be enough to win regionals all day.

-Mark

[eboucher]

There is a nice example of a WF1 for sale here in the mid 30s that is not quite fully state of the art, but close - might be some room for negotiation and it'd be enough to win regionals all day.

-Mark

Yep, I know exactly which car you’re talking about. Looks quite nice and the price seems about right. Definitely intriguing.

Eric

[eboucher]

@PGas32 didn’t mean to hijack your thread here, but if you’re really considering moving away from PCA and into a serious race car this is all good info and conversation. It’s not an easy decision these days as you can see. :-)

Eric