Race etiquette advice

[Steel Sails]

In a recent race the starting instructions were to not change position until your car crossed the start line.A particular car passed me way before that line. Later in the race the same car passed me under a red flag.
I didn’t say anything at the time because race position didn’t matter to me. I’m in a different class and not yet competitive.
However I later found out friend would have been on the podium had I said something.


I’m fairly new to racing ( 2 years) what should I have done.

regards
Paul

[Daryl DeArman]

Perhaps seek a clearer understanding of the flags as your club uses them.

Not saying that it doesn't happen, but what sanctioning body doesn't allow passing once the green flag is waived? Perhaps the instruction was to maintain position until the "green flag is waived".

As to passing under a red. . .ya'll didn't come to a stop on course as soon and as safely as possible? Of course, most of the sanctioning bodies I have raced with wanted all cars to slow immediately and come to s/f and stop there. They did that so the pit in/out lanes were kept clear and all cars could be accounted for during the red flag event.

[Steel Sails]

the instructions were clear we were instructed to watch a video due to COVID no passing until car crosses start line
regards
Paul

[Richard Hybels]

In my first race in Cross Flow cup at Sears Point the rule was no passing until the starter stand. I’m not that experienced but having to stay behind a guy that missed a shift etc. would not be desirable. I heard plenty of bitching about the rule.

[Jamesbe]

We have that rule. Even worse, if you pull out of line they consider that a pass, so if the guy in front of you misses a shift you are suppose to run into him or brake. Figure that one out.

As far as red flag, pass under yellow or red should be noticed by the flaggers but if you see it happen always report it.

It may not matter to you, but it's a safety issue. If that driver is doing it constantly it could be a sign they are ove their heads out there.

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[Zonker]

Who was the organizer of the event? In NASCAR you wait but in SCCA when the green flys you go racing, you do not need to wait until you cross the line.

In SCCA the red flag does call for you to pull over and stop, however you may pass someone while finding a place to park.

[Rick Kirchner]

I always tell my students that your first responsibility under a red is to get the car stopped SAFELY as SOON AS POSSIBLE. In that order. Someone could jump all over the brakes in front of you, requiring an evasive maneuver. someone in front of you could have seen the red flag but you didn't, especially in a close fight. In that case, you may pass them under the assumption that they just broke. Then you see the flag at the next station. Depending on where you are on course when the red is thrown you may also have no choice but to go through the incident location.

Just like being the command pilot in an airplane, you may be called to explain your actions, but it's tough for people to take exception to a realistic explanation around safety.

For an example of how not to do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULcZ7e9iq0I

As far as the start rule - if your club is a driver run club I'd work to change that nonsense forthwith.

[OneWayOut]

Two great reasons why every club should require front and rear cameras...

[Roland V. Johnson]

I am assuming you are discussing SVRA at COTA this past weekend. It is a rule they developed particularly for COTA, I believe it was in reaction to an on track incident, and to the separate placement of the start and finish lines. We as drivers need to try to get the no passing until the start line rule suspended. I do not believe that is a proper way to start a race, especially in a mixed bag of cars with different performance performance levels. I am certain it could cause much more severe incidents than it might somehow prevent. As far as I can see that rule was not enforced. When the green flag comes out everyone should, and in our group most did, just go racing.

[problemchild]

Beware, if you race with that stupid rule. If your line accelerates better than the other line, you can pass cars in the other line without consciously making a pass. The good news, if you are racing with this stupid rule, is that no video is required. Assuming that the timing line is at the start line (which COTA may not) the timing will tell you if any passes were made. Ask me how I know. When we challenged our stop-n-go penalty, the chief of timing showed us the order of cars as they crossed the start line.

In our case, the car in the other lane that never went, retired from the race on lap 3 with a misfire.

[924RACR]

That video even further illustrates that your responsibility is not MERELY to stop as quickly and as safely as possible.

You want to do it smoothly, so you don't collect the guys hiding in your baffles that you've been trying to ignore for the last few laps; they'll probably see the flag later than you, and won't immediately be prepared for you to stop cold.

Pull off the racing line!! Both the camera car and the yellow one behind it failed to follow this guideline, and paid the price. Note that the two white sports racers pulled to the side of the track off the line, leaving a lane open for EVs to pass through. Well done.

Make sure you stop in an area where you can see and be seen. Again, these guys parked just after a crest, hiding out of sight just behind. Pretty dangerous - assume the guy behind missed the first red flag you saw and is coming through at speed.

Equally, stop in an area where you can see a flag station or that a flagger can get in your view, so you can get going again. Can't see the layout here, since they stopped just after the station presumably it wouldn't be hard for one of the gang from that station to walk up in front of them and wave them away to head to the pits. But try not to stop a good 1/4 mile from any flag station. You might have to walk in...

Should also be obvious, but don't actually pull off the track, since then you may need a flat tow to get going again... should be obvious, but we've seen rookies mess that up in school too...

A few more things to think about beyond just stopping ASAP. Think a few steps ahead, don't worry about who parks in front of or behind you - race order will be fixed in the pits anyway - and worry more about who isn't stopping...

[Rick Kirchner]

This was at Buttonwillow, at Phill Hill. All were stopped just after the flag station at the top of the hill. It was a thinly staffed event. Had there been two flaggers perhaps one could have been frantically waiving yellow, but this probably happened too fast anyway. One FF made it through, so it was possible, but the red car was fairly new to FF, lifted in the worst place possible - right at the top, and you can see the tank-slapper starting.

What you can barely see was the first guy in the line that formed drivers right was a rookie in a FM, first event with us. He sort of did the right thing but he didn't think to go far enough down the track - this bottled the two S2s behind him - which SHOULD have quickly passed him and gotten further down the track in my opinion - both those guys were fairly experienced. The FM guy quit racing right after that - just freaked him out.

There is a 1/8 mile or so straight after this turn with a corner station there, which is where they should have ended up.

The incident here unfolded as follows - and it was a real tragedy of errors. Early in the video you see a guy be attended to by fire and rescue. This guy was new to an early 70's lotus FB and he spun in EVERY session on friday - not only did he not know how to drive it, you could look at the car and see several setup issues - too much rake, too much ride ht, etc. While under tow here he decided to bump start it and drove into the back of the fire truck.

Meanwhile, the DB2 shown high-centered at Cotton Corners and I were having a pretty good race, and trying to get through the incident location without either of us getting the attention or the steward or giving the other an advantage. Finally, I got him to concentrate on his mirror a bit too much, he missed his braking point, and spun onto the curb. This left me in the lead. When I came around to S/F they had put the red out. The crash at Phil Hill had not yet happened - the camera car was probably 1/2 of a lap behind me.

Since the rescue truck was tied up with the Lotus and the DB-2 was sitting smack in the middle of the racing line, the steward decided to throw the red. Probably should have been black all, but hey, it's his call and we all need to be ready for it.

I stopped just past the lotus/fire truck about 30 yds from the next worker station. I was watching this circus in my mirror when I saw the fire guys throw all their stuff rapidly in the truck and take off counter-race. That must have been the call from the wreck. I eventually went up to the wide area at the next corner, turned the car around, and came back counter-race to the pits (exit was just a few yards behind me).

Here's the perverse thing. Because in a red or black all they revert to the previous lap's scoring, the guy in the S2, who triggered the red, ended up 1st over all.....

The camera car was a lotus (16?) and quite a mess from the main hoop back. The red car was a write-off as it broke most of the tubing on the right side. Driver sustained a compound fracture of the right arm.

[Jamesbe]

Interesting, the rule in casc in Ontario on a red is to proceed cautiously to the front straight or pit lane if straight is blocked. In the order you are. Makes restart easier and safer.

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[alangbaker]

Interesting, the rule in casc in Ontario on a red is to proceed cautiously to the front straight or pit lane if straight is blocked. In the order you are. Makes restart easier and safer.

Out west with the CACC, it is stop at the first turn station where it is safe to do so (don't try and stop at the first place you see the flag unless you can do so in a smooth, controlled manner), and make sure when you stop, that you are in a visual connection with the turn workers; don't stop past the station when you can't turn your head.

Black flag all (stations) is used to tell drivers to proceed (slowly) back to pit lane.

[TedV]

My favorite announcement after a red flag incident at Rd Atl many years ago. " will the crew of ITS (car number) please report to the front straight with 4 spare tires, jack, and lug wrench to change the tires." Red flag does not mean, flat spot the tires to the air.

[Roland V. Johnson]

The camera car at Buttonwillow was actually a Lotus 51. He was a customer who was a relative rookie. The Chief Steward that weekend was on a tear and made numerous announcements over the P A that at the previous race weekend some people blew the Red Flag and everyone under a Red Flag condition MUST stop at the next flag station they see. My customer stated to me that he was afraid to pass a flag station after all those P A announcements. The two Rookies did exactly as instructed and you can see what a mistake it was. By the way, after a large hit to the customer's wallet, the car was racing at the next event and now resides in Wisconsin.

[Rick Kirchner]

Roland - I did not know the story about the blown red on a prior race weekend. I guess that's why we go over this ad nauseam in drivers meetings now....

[FVRacer21]

I have seen too many - I will call them crazy moves - from people who did not see the red flag.

On the other hand, I have also seen accidents like the video caused by people stopping too quickly. (I would say that was a prefect storm of circumstances and some of the comments on YouTube were over the line.)

The GCR says


I. RED FLAG (Solid Red)
Displayed at each station and on the Starter’s stand – EXTREME DANGER – THE SESSION HAS BEEN
STOPPED. Come to an immediate, controlled stop at the side of the race track (preferably before and within
sight of a staffed station or where specified in the event Supplemental Regulations). When released by an
official, proceed cautiously to the pits. Once a red flag has been displayed, it will not be withdrawn until
all cars have come to a stop.

(Emphasis mine)

The word immediate contradicts the "controlled stop etc. etc.", especially if you just passed a station where the next one is 1/4 or more away.

I know, "As soon as safely possible" does not have the same command as "Immediately", but we emphasize in our schools (NE) not to slam on the brakes.....

Now it does not say off the race track, nor does it state inside or outside.

The F & C Manual just says:

Red Flag – (Solid red, held motionless)
Rule / meaning: Extreme danger, the session has been stopped. Come to an immediate controlled stop at the side of the race track.
Proper use: This flag is only used at the direction of Race Control. It is displayed as a stationary flag.

But here is what is says about a stationary flag:

Some flags are displayed motionless or steady while others are waved. All stationary flags should be held with one hand on the flag staff and the other holding the free edge of the flag in order to maximize the area shown to the drivers and to minimize interference from the wind.

(emphasis mine)

If you see a situation where this is not being done properly, you should mention to the proper person(s) at the track. We do have a shortage of corner workers and many others are "volunteered" to help. We help our cause by helping them.

ChrisZ

[Rick Kirchner]

it was suggested that wind was a factor in the crash above. The flagger did not hold the material don and the wind was blowing the flag nearly horizontal.

[Daryl DeArman]

It's too bad that every racer doesn't have to flag at some point, and too bad that at each corner station they don't have one flagger who is also a current/former racer. The perspectives can help tremendously.

One club I used to race counted 11 of the 12 races in the season towards the Championship, everybody got to drop their lowest points finishing race. If you wanted to be eligible for year end awards you had to flag one race that season.

[Rick Kirchner]

I flagged at Willow once - Top of E4 and T9. 9 wasn't really all that interesting, I don't think drivers look at that one much, or really need to - the action is font of you is right there.

T4 was cool though. The flagger handed me the passing flag and said "you're a driver - you know what to do with this".

If you are having a rough time with a corner - volunteer to flag there sometime - even for another club. It's pretty eye-opening.

[DanW]

I flagged at Willow once - Top of E4 and T9. 9 wasn't really all that interesting, I don't think drivers look at that one much, or really need to - the action is font of you is right there.

T4 was cool though. The flagger handed me the passing flag and said "you're a driver - you know what to do with this".

If you are having a rough time with a corner - volunteer to flag there sometime - even for another club. It's pretty eye-opening.

Thanks Rick.

Ladies and gents, volunteer a weekend and help out as driver observer on a corner. Learn how to herd cats on Grid.... See how hard it is to spot vague car numbers in Timing and Scoring.

Best of all, volunteer to observe E-Crew or Course Marshall, so you can watch for wankers who refuse to slow for waving yellow flags on blind corners.....

The clubs have been hurting for worker/officials for years. It's much worse now because of Covid. Put on your mask, come out and volunteer for a weekend and meet some of the folk who have been helping you get on track and have some fun. They are some of the finest folk I know. SCCA gives out volunteer points for their workers. Some regions (SFR) give out track time or reduced entry fees in exchange for weekends worked. I just did a free test day two weeks ago.

Regards,
Dan

[Daryl DeArman]

I flagged at Willow once - Top of E4 and T9. 9 wasn't really all that interesting, I don't think drivers look at that one much, or really need to - the action is font of you is right there.

T4 was cool though. The flagger handed me the passing flag and said "you're a driver - you know what to do with this".

If you are having a rough time with a corner - volunteer to flag there sometime - even for another club. It's pretty eye-opening.

I volunteered to work T4 at Cal Speedway (the first right hander immediately after coming off the oval). As a driver I was also given the passing flag.

What was eye-opening to me is that when working in pairs, the flagger with the yellow is looking down track with his/her back to the action.

I also worked T&S a couple times pre-transponder days on a 1/4mi short track with 24 car fields and 13 second laps. Later on I helped work T&S at Willow Springs with 15-30 car fields turning 90-ish second laps using transponders, talk about a huge intensity difference.
I have found that I really suck at the motocross thing, but enjoy riding. I've thought about flagging those events or running sweep at local GP's. All these clubs need people to help put on events. Some pay their workers, some require x number of days/season, others exchange work sessions for free race entries.

[alangbaker]

It's too bad that every racer doesn't have to flag at some point, and too bad that at each corner station they don't have one flagger who is also a current/former racer. The perspectives can help tremendously.

One club I used to race counted 11 of the 12 races in the season towards the Championship, everybody got to drop their lowest points finishing race. If you wanted to be eligible for year end awards you had to flag one race that season.

Now that is a VERY good idea.

[924RACR]

I spent a whole season (7 weekends) flagging at my local track - Waterford - before going to race school. Best training you could ever get for racing before you have a car, you learn SO much about how races work, not just flags but every bit of procedure, so by the time you get behind the wheel and risk nomex poisoning all that stuff is ingrained and (big grey wrinkly) muscle memory.

[FVRacer21]

......

What was eye-opening to me is that when working in pairs, the flagger with the yellow is looking down track with his/her back to the action.

I was flagging at Bridgehampton (1978?) and Blue Flagging and had to push the guy doing the yellow flag out of the way as a car ended up on our car station.

The short story was he was from Austria and did not know what "heads up!" meant.

ChrisZ

[Mark_Silverberg]

Cars coming through corner stations happens more often than most people think and the number one job of the blue flagger is not to flag but to be the early warning for the rest of the corner. Most yellow flaggers will watch to see if the blue flagger starts to bail out and will move with them.

In the 1990 or 1991 Grattan August national Andrea Kasiewicz lost in under braking into turn #1. I was the blue flagger which at Grattan typically stands about 2 feet out from the barrier to make it easier for the drivers to see them. When I saw the car twitch I was on my whistle and took off towards turn 2 with the rest of the crew. Andrea came through the station and down off the hill stopping on the inside of turn 1 - put it in first gear and took off. Went back to my spot and saw tire tracks on both sides. That is close!