Flagging question

[John Robinson II]

Not sure if this is the correct place to ask, but...
after a full course yellow with no pace car deployed, should a green flag be shown or waved at the s/f flag stand to restart the action?

At the ARRC race on Saturday, a double yellow was shown from s/f to turn 7. Next lap around there I did not see it at starters stand but was shown at turn 1, didn’t see it at any other stations. We, the lead pack of 3 FFs, came upon a slow F500 at 10a, he pointed us by and I figured I was going to get reprimanded for passing under yellow. My argument would have been he pointed me by. At the bottom of the hill looked up and no double yellow or green flag at starter stand, so said eff it let’s race and we proceeded to race. So hence my question, should a green flag should have been displayed? FWIW, after the start, I never saw a green flag at the starters stand.

For my continuing education, if there is a double yellow displayed in several corners, then the next few corners have no flags displayed at all, should we be racing as if it is a green flag track?

John

[FVRacer21]

I will take a stab and let’s see if I am right. Once you go full course yellow, you cannot start without a green flag at start finish - for the leaders. And then s/f should display to all cars until the field is passed.

now if you are a straggler (you should have caught up to the pack) you might see the double yellow dropped long before you get to s/f.

But I don’t see how the course can go green to the leaders without a green flag.

we are not F1 with a virtual pace car.

but is there anything in the supps?

did the pace car pick up wrong car?



ChrisZ

[John Robinson II]

No pace car
we were 2 - 4 overall
I maintained about 90% pace trying to catch up to Clint. Only went about 2 secs a lap slower than race pace. Actually thought it was him when I came upon the slow f500, same chassis and dark colored bodywork
Nothing in the supps.

[clint]

No pace car
we were 2 - 4 overall
I maintained about 90% pace trying to catch up to Clint. Only went about 2 secs a lap slower than race pace. Actually thought it was him when I came upon the slow f500, same chassis and dark colored bodywork
Nothing in the supps.

When I received the double yellow it was between T2&T3. I was trying to catch the car closest to me which happened to be the same car you ran up on. I caught him in T7 and there was still a double yellow. I was trailing behind him with him frantically pointing me by , but like you I didn't want to talk to Rick Mitchell on that subject so I stayed behind him until I got to the next corner worker station. When we arrived at the station I wanted the corner worker to see that he was pointing me by due to a mechanical and at the same exact time I noticed there was NO DAMN DOUBLE YELLOW...........WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?.So, like you I said screw it and went. I asked my dad over the radio if the flags had been dropped while going through the gears and he said "yes, right before I had keyed him up" . After the race he and I discussed it and he was just as surprised as I was. I wasn't going to say anything , but since it was brought up I figured why not. I realize this is amateur racing, but this is pretty basic standard operating procedures. In my opinion when something like this happens there needs to be a coaching and counseling session with whomever is at fault.

[Steve Davis]

The rules are OPEN in the GCR. The supps MAY specify specific situations and what is to be expected.. HOWEVER, as it stands from the GCR, double yellows can be shown WITHOUT dispatch of a safety (pace) car.. if the issue that caused the DY is cleared quickly, the DY's can be DROPPED and the entire course is instantly GREEN.. there is no requirement for Start to show a green flag, nor is there any requirement that the green only be shown as the leader comes by Start. (Start MAY show a green, but it's not required.)

It is that way to try to allow races to have as many green laps as possible and it's up to the sitting steward to take whatever action he or she might want .. and then clear the FCY if possible ASAP so racing can resume. This would be especially important on LONG tracks like Road America, but still allowed on ALL tracks.

This USED to be asked occasionally at the Driver's meetings .. which are mostly on paper these days due to COVID and do NOT get much into specifics other than DO NOT PASS UNDER YELLOW UNDER ***!!!ANY!!!*** circumstances. This DNP was brought up at the CRB meeting during the Runoffs and I raised the question... If there are ZERO "circumstances" that allow a PUY (related specifically to FCY), then just WHAT am I supposed to do if the car in front of me STOPS ON COURSE .. whether he points me by or not... Should I STOP behind him? ... The answer was YES.. I should NOT pass him... however, if I DID (MAYBE he managed to get off into the grass), then I would be able to 'splain' it to the stewards and MAYBE avoid a penalty -- may be 'splaining' that to the Black Flag steward - effectively ending your race. Basically, I think you would NOT be penalized if you STOPPED on course behind the disabled car... but if you DIDN'T stop, you MIGHT PROBABLY be penalized in some manner. Of course if you DID stop, who knows what the cars behind you might do .. probably think you are disabled as well and just pass you.

How's that for being CLEAR on the rules?

Steve, FV80

[Purple Frog]

Many years at Drivers school one of the things Hyler Craft and Fred Shmucker would do during the practice races was to throw a double yellow, send out no pace car, and then just drop the double yellows at all corners to restart. Never forgot it.

[mmi16]

Many years at Drivers school one of the things Hyler Craft and Fred Shmucker would do during the practice races was to throw a double yellow, send out no pace car, and then just drop the double yellows at all corners to restart. Never forgot it.

To my mind - that is a BAD PROCEDURE.

If a double yellow is dropped - then GREEN should be displayed at least at all stations that that displayed the double yellow.

The absence of something, where something had been displayed always raises the questions that this thread is about.

End the questioning, have procedures that clearly display their intent.

[FVRacer21]

I deliberately did not look at the gcr in order to look at it based on 40 years of experience, but also with the understanding is that here in NE most tracks are less than 2 miles.

If a FCY is less than 1 lap, maybe it should not have been called, but since it had, the procedure should have been clear. I can imagine a car seeing a dbl yellow being dropped and running into a group that had not gotten to the next flag station yet.

I believe in Europe they put greens at all stations. Maybe someone from there can chime in.

Do flaggers submit this to the CRB or shoud drivers?

ChrisZ

[John Nesbitt]

I was not at the event, so I cannot comment on the rights and wrongs of this particular incident. However, the flag rules are fairly straightforward.

When the Double Yellow/FCY comes out, the field slows and forms up. If there is no safety car, the leader takes on that role. (See GCR 6.6.2.)

The GCR does not specify a process for going back to racing. The standard procedure, followed everywhere, is that race control directs Start to go Green next time by. As the leaders come on the front straight, Start drops the Double Yellow, and waves the Green. Race control directs all stations to drop their Yellows. That is the way the process ‘should’ work.

There are obviously gaps in this process. There is a lapse of time while the starter drops the Yellow, and raises the Green. Skill and experience play a part in this. There is a latency while race control directs all stations to drop their Yellows, and the stations respond. The stations ‘should’ have heard race control directing Start to go Green, and been ready to drop the Yellow, but, again, skill and experience play a role.

In SCCA Road Racing, we normally show the Green only at Start. Drivers know that the course, or a segment thereof, is Green by the absence of a flag at a station.

[John Nesbitt]

...

I believe in Europe they put greens at all stations. Maybe someone from there can chime in.

Do flaggers submit this to the CRB or shoud drivers?

ChrisZ

FIA rules are different from SCCA. Same with Canadian rules.

Such a change would start with a CRB letter. Be aware that this has been a discussion topic in the racer and flagger communities for many years. There are arguments for and against. It would be a major cultural and procedural change.

[swiftdrivr]

Green at all stations allows little possibility of mis-interpretation, and more green flag laps. and everyone gets the green pretty much at the same time. This doesn't sound like it should be controversial [but I won't be surprised if it is]

Passing under yellow with a point-by seems logical too, and far safer than stopping on track. Clint was wise to wait until a corner could verify the point-by, though.

[douglap1]

FIA rules are different from SCCA. Same with Canadian rules.

Such a change would start with a CRB letter. Be aware that this has been a discussion topic in the racer and flagger communities for many years. There are arguments for and against. It would be a major cultural and procedural change.

Great point - I think SCCA should consider adopting FIA flagging rules on this to avoid the inconsistent flagging that we have now.

One crazy example of this happened in the formula car group at Barber earlier this year. The race was black flagged at about 1/2 way, and everyone came onto pit road. After they cleared the track, they decided to send the field back out and told the lead drivers that the course would be green from pit road! This word did not make it to the back of the field, and they sent us all back out with no green flags displayed. The back of the field obviously thought it was a pace lap, and did not get up to speed. So after a couple of hot laps they threw the green flag at start/finish to get those folks moving. What a FUBAR.

[John Nesbitt]

Great point - I think SCCA should consider adopting FIA flagging rules on this to avoid the inconsistent flagging that we have now.

One crazy example of this happened in the formula car group at Barber earlier this year. The race was black flagged at about 1/2 way, and everyone came onto pit road. After they cleared the track, they decided to send the field back out and told the lead drivers that the course would be green from pit road! This word did not make it to the back of the field, and they sent us all back out with no green flags displayed. The back of the field obviously thought it was a pace lap, and did not get up to speed. So after a couple of hot laps they threw the green flag at start/finish to get those folks moving. What a FUBAR.

The incident that you describe is not a flagging problem, it is a problem with race control not following a well-established rule for restarts (see GCR 6.8.).

Fun fact: Following an incident on a restart at Daytona a couple of years ago, the CRB modified 6.8. to underline the requirement for FCY on restarts. In the stewarding community, it is known as the "Daytona Rule". Evidently, the message has not percolated.

[bill gillespie]

FIA rules are different from SCCA. Same with Canadian rules.

Such a change would start with a CRB letter. Be aware that this has been a discussion topic in the racer and flagger communities for many years. There are arguments for and against. It would be a major cultural and procedural change.

John, with respect, that sounds a lot like
“that’s the way we’ve always done it “...

[Daryl DeArman]

Once a race has been green flagged it is on unless a flag communicates otherwise. Lack of a flag being displayed at a station means it's on. Dropping a yellow means drop the hammer.

[Bob Wright]

I have been subjected to the above 'drop the double yellows and go racing' procedure. That's horrible in my book! If you're on a straight, just past a flag station and not near the next one and cars behind you at the station see the flags drop, you will be freight-trained (assuming the field is not gathered up).

IMHO, the only way to handle FCY is the field gathers (with or without pace car) and gets the green at S/F ONLY when it is under control and bunched. Yes, you may lose some green flag track time, but the alternative is potentially unfair and possibly dangerous.

As to FIA flagging- 1) most SCCA regions do not have green flags at every station and 2) at many tracks, not all the flag stations are manned, so it can be a long time until the green at the next station.

[Bardahl77]

As a former National F&C license holder, I never liked the double yellow when it came in, but these days with fewer workers available there are often unmanned stations, so I can understand its use these days. Single standing yellow can mean a car or personnel in a danger area but not on track, or it would be backing up a waving yellow from the next station. For full course yellow with single flags, drivers would have to remember unmanned stations and not assume being past an incident is "go" time because there could be yellow at the next station.

I agree with the FIA standards where a green is waved after a yellow zone to indicate it's clear, and "full course green" after a double yellow. It would be great if we had the money to set up flashing yellow lights under the control of the starter/race control at all stations if a full course is required.

I disagree with the use of double yellow/no pace car for a short time, as a full course yellow is intended to do two things - slow the cars considerably AND bunch the field up so there is a larger gap for response personnel to handle the situation. If it isn't out for long enough to gather the field, why bother? This ain't NASCAR where they can throw a yellow for 10 laps because of a spin & continue as to allow everyone to pit.

[John Nesbitt]

FIA rules are different from SCCA. Same with Canadian rules.

Such a change would start with a CRB letter. Be aware that this has been a discussion topic in the racer and flagger communities for many years. There are arguments for and against. It would be a major cultural and procedural change.

John, with respect, that sounds a lot like
“that’s the way we’ve always done it “...

Well, it is the way SCCA has done it for some time. My point is simply that changing the flag rules would require some effort at persuasion. I do know that the existing flag rules came as a result of a long effort to standardize flag rules across the country. Changing them would likely entail a similar effort.

I am not married to either set of rules - they both have strengths and weaknesses, and they both can work if consistently applied.

I have to point out that that the incidents above, assuming they occurred during SCCA Regional/Majors/Super Tour races, are not the fault of the existing flag rules. The problem was that the rules were not properly applied. These were problems with officiating.

[Raceworks]

Great point - I think SCCA should consider adopting FIA flagging rules on this to avoid the inconsistent flagging that we have now.

One crazy example of this happened in the formula car group at Barber earlier this year. The race was black flagged at about 1/2 way, and everyone came onto pit road. After they cleared the track, they decided to send the field back out and told the lead drivers that the course would be green from pit road! This word did not make it to the back of the field, and they sent us all back out with no green flags displayed. The back of the field obviously thought it was a pace lap, and did not get up to speed. So after a couple of hot laps they threw the green flag at start/finish to get those folks moving. What a FUBAR.

Yeah, that was a weird call at Barber.

Adopting FIA flagging rules isn't going to change anything other than add pages to the rulebook and allow more opportunities for protests. You're still going to have the the same crop of overworked officials & flaggers with limited resources trying to manage 7+ run groups a day.

[clint]

Great point - I think SCCA should consider adopting FIA flagging rules on this to avoid the inconsistent flagging that we have now.

One crazy example of this happened in the formula car group at Barber earlier this year. The race was black flagged at about 1/2 way, and everyone came onto pit road. After they cleared the track, they decided to send the field back out and told the lead drivers that the course would be green from pit road! This word did not make it to the back of the field, and they sent us all back out with no green flags displayed. The back of the field obviously thought it was a pace lap, and did not get up to speed. So after a couple of hot laps they threw the green flag at start/finish to get those folks moving. What a FUBAR.

I was there for that one also. Thankfully I wasn't driving, but my driver thought i was screwing with him. I had to scream at him to get him to get the message. Again, this is club racing BUT this kind of stuff can and will get someone hurt eventually.

[Farrout48]

I was there for that one also. Thankfully I wasn't driving, but my driver thought i was screwing with him. I had to scream at him to get him to get the message. Again, this is club racing BUT this kind of stuff can and will get someone hurt eventually.

I was helping the Steward on pit road. When the immediate Green call came over the Steward net, the particular Steward questioned it. When we were told to spread the word, we also questioned it. Nobody had ever heard of something like this before. It raised a lot of questions about the protocol to follow. A number of the drivers asked questions. Before there was any resolution, the car release was directed. This was one of the issues in the post-race discussion. I doubt it will happen again.

[Steve Davis]

I was there for that one also. Thankfully I wasn't driving, but my driver thought i was screwing with him. I had to scream at him to get him to get the message. Again, this is club racing BUT this kind of stuff can and will get someone hurt eventually.

I was also in that "race" at Barber. The real problem that caused most of that 'crazy situation' was that the 2nd place car on pit road failed to start. The cars on the grid had been notified (at least as far back as where I was and the couple of cars behind me and I THINK that was the back of the field) that we would be GREEN as soon as we left pit road. So .. it was to be basically a near standing, single file restart, in the order the cars came off track (which WAS the proper racing order). My understanding was that it was going to be a GREEN (as we left the pits) - White at S/F - Checker. However, the lead car went out and was RACING.. the 2nd place car could not move (engine was dead), and it took some 20 seconds before pits started waving cars around him onto the track. By that time, the lead car was already coming into the horseshoe.. so .. NOT really a 'race' to the finish as the lead car was already well out of sight of 2nd place. I guess it COULD have worked more or less except for the stall on the grid.

Steve

[Daryl DeArman]

I have been subjected to the above 'drop the double yellows and go racing' procedure. That's horrible in my book! If you're on a straight, just past a flag station and not near the next one and cars behind you at the station see the flags drop, you will be freight-trained (assuming the field is not gathered up).

Good point.

That's a situation I never encountered, but I certainly see how it could present an issue. Thinking of all the tracks I've raced and their corner station areas, there are two spots I can recall clearing one station and not being able to see the next station.

[Zonker]

Let us all open our GCRs to page 55 where we will find...

"iii Drivers must maintain the safety car’s pace and not improve their positions or begin racinguntil the green flag has been displayed to restart the race."

If you did not get a green at Start you are still under the double yellow. There can be a reason for that to happen.

Jack Marr
Practicing eccentric and sometimes Steward

[Daryl DeArman]

Let us all open our GCRs to page 55 where we will find...

"iii Drivers must maintain the safety car’s pace and not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed to restart the race."

When no safety car is utilized during the FCY, as was the case here, the lead car establishes the pace. All restart procedures specify/refer to the pace car, absent a pace car those rules are not applicable.

[Zonker]

When no safety car is utilized during the FCY, as was the case here, the lead car establishes the pace. All restart procedures specify/refer to the pace car, absent a pace car those rules are not applicable.

Don't play word games. If you want to get picky there is only a pace car to start the race, the one that comes out under a full yellow is a safety car.

If there is no safety car, the leader assumes that role. Note also it tells us the leader will maintain a steady pace coming to a restart which happens when the green is shown, not before.

JM

[John Robinson II]

Ok, I went back and reviewed my video even closer, stopping it at all the flag stations. First DY was at t11, 2nd was at s/f, 3rd was at t1 ( Very hard to tell, looked like it could have been single yellow). Station after t3, which car was on drivers right just before then, had no flag and the car was no longer there. No other stations had no flag displayed period. When we came upon the slow moving f500, the move over flag was being waved furiously. So, the real question is, should the DY even been displayed? Fortunately, this did not effect the outcome of the race. The 2 young drivers behind me must have figured the old guy in front must know what the correct procedure should be. Knowing what I now know, if I had been behind them, as soon as I didn’t see a yellow flag displayed, it would have been full race pace. What a cluster.

John

[swiftdrivr]

Fortunately, this did not effect the outcome of the race. The 2 young drivers behind me must have figured the old guy in front must know what the correct procedure should be. Knowing what I now know, if I had been behind them, as soon as I didn’t see a yellow flag displayed, it would have been full race pace. What a cluster.

John

Age and treachery.

[Daryl DeArman]

Don't play word games. If you want to get picky there is only a pace car to start the race, the one that comes out under a full yellow is a safety car.

Word games? You have a friggen' 700 page book of words that is utilized to explain how things work. Using those words to 'splain things isn't playing word games.

If there is no safety car, the leader assumes that role. Note also it tells us the leader will maintain a steady pace coming to a restart which happens when the green is shown, not before.

No, the lead car does not assume the role of safety car. The lead car is the lead car and has similar, but not identical role.

As to your assertion that a restart requires showing the green flag, please point out where in the book of words that is stated. I'll wait.

[Zonker]

As to your assertion that a restart requires showing the green flag, please point out where in the book of words that is stated. I'll wait.

Both the initial race start and a restart follow the same procedures and both require a green flag before racing begins.

[FVRacer21]

Both the initial race start and a restart follow the same procedures and both require a green flag before racing begins.

and the consensus is that there was no green - so if a green flag falls but no one sees it is there a race?

ChrisZ

[924RACR]

I can appreciate that switching to FIA rules would very much be a cultural shift - and given how many drivers actually read even 50% of the GCR, that's a recipe for a major CF or ten.

That said, the "common practice" has already been explained, yet it's not codified/required by the rules; why would there be a problem simply writing that down as a requirement? Once a FCY has been displayed, the race must be restarted or ended by a green or a checker at start/finish, or the session stopped by black flag all and pace car leads the field into the pits?

The last thing we need is the uncertainty, in such a dangerous condition, with the potential of EVs and workers still out on track...

[problemchild]

I love that track and the people in that area, but race control is the worst of any track I have ever been to. It is usually reserved for the wings and things group, and involves delayed yellows after the field passes through a crash site for 2 laps under green, pace car picking up non leader, wave arounds, and then checkering early because they ran out of time to restart. I think the Smucker legacy continues to this day. Not only is it a poor customer experience, there are often major safety issues involved.

[Daryl DeArman]

Both the initial race start and a restart follow the same procedures and both require a green flag before racing begins.

Where in the book of words does it say that?

[Daryl DeArman]

why would there be a problem simply writing that down as a requirement? Once a FCY has been displayed, the race must be restarted or ended by a green or a checker at start/finish, or the session stopped by black flag all and pace car leads the field into the pits?

Because it's currently not.

If it's decided it's best to require a green flag restart, then that would require a change to the rules...and then people will bitch about how many laps it takes to get the field bunched and under control for a restart. This isn't short track racing where first to last is separated by no more than 15 seconds. You've got wankers 3 miles away from the leader. Leaders could stop and it would take 2 minutes for them to catch up. If those leaders are putting around at 60mph, and the wankers are doing 80 under that FCY it takes them about 3-4 laps just to catch up.

[Zonker]

I love that track and the people in that area, but race control is the worst of any track I have ever been to. It is usually reserved for the wings and things group, and involves delayed yellows after the field passes through a crash site for 2 laps under green, pace car picking up non leader, wave arounds, and then checkering early because they ran out of time to restart. I think the Smucker legacy continues to this day. Not only is it a poor customer experience, there are often major safety issues involved.

A couple of observations, Greg.

The quality of race control at any track is a function of the Steward who is in the chair at any given time. Many will consider it heresy, but the truth is some Stewards are better than others. Not everyone is a James Foyle or Marty Kaufman.

The delayed yellows you mention, is this the double yellow? The single yellow should be up immediately, the FCY may be delayed until the extent of the clean up is known. Can we do a grab and go with a flat tow or do we need to lift the car with the hook for instance.

Safety car not picking up the leader? Sometimes there is not a clear gap in front of the leader for the safety car to drop into. In this case the best thing is to get the safety car out early and the wave cars by until you have captured the leader. This is a LOT better than getting him out too late and picking up the third place car and then trying to catch the leader. Just ask Johnny Rutherford how much fun it is to crash the safety car playing catch up.

Checkering early under FCY happens when there is say 5 minutes left in the race and the clean up will take 10 or so. Why keep driving around burning Sunoco's best?

My thoughts, ymmv.

[Zonker]

If it's decided it's best to require a green flag restart, then that would require a change to the rules...and then people will bitch about how many laps it takes to get the field bunched and under control for a restart......

A rule change is not needed, a green is required to restart a race, see page 55 of the GCR:

"iii Drivers must maintain the safety car’s pace and not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag
has been displayed to restart the race."

There is also no requirement for the entire field to be bunched up in line astern of the leader before a restart.

[Daryl DeArman]

A rule change is not needed, a green is required to restart a race, see page 55 of the GCR:

"iii Drivers must maintain the safety car’s pace and not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag
has been displayed to restart the race."

There was no safety car. Therefore how a race is restarted when a safety car is utilized is irrelevant. No idea if that wording has been changed recently or years ago, but the rule you're partially quoting is no longer on page 55, it's on page 59 of the latest edition.

[problemchild]

A couple of observations, Greg.

All I know is that in my 35 years of racing participation, and several hundred events, I will guess that 7 of the 10 worst officiated events were SCCA events at Road Atlanta. I think the wings and things FCC routine would be half of those. Considering that I have only attended about 20 Scca events there, that is not a good rating. It is my favorite track. I love the town and local people, and keep coming back, but I know racers will get screwed and I hope it’s not my guys. One of my funniest racing stories was a split start attempt at the ARRC about 12 years ago. I have absolutely no malice toward them. I just wish they would do a better job!

[Zonker]

There was no safety car. Therefore how a race is restarted when a safety car is utilized is irrelevant. No idea if that wording has been changed recently or years ago, but the rule you're partially quoting is no longer on page 55, it's on page 59 of the latest edition.

I amusing the January, 2020 edition.