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  1. #1
    Contributing Member John Nesbitt's Avatar
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    Default Greatest F1 Driver

    Now that winter is drawing in, we can focus on the truly important questions of the day. Such as, who is the greatest F1 driver of all time?

    It is extremely difficult to compare performances across decades. A couple of weeks ago, the Economist took a try, using a Moneyball-type analysis, basically focusing on drivers' best seasons and comparing with other contemporaneous drivers, and evaluating the relative contribution of team -vs- driver.

    Unfortunately, the article is behind paywall. If you have access, here is a link: https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...in-motor-sport If you cannot access the article, I copy the text below, but not the graphics.

    Compare your top 8 with the Economist's (Fangio, Clark, Prost, Stewart, Schumacher, Hamilton, Ascari, Senna - in that order).
    “I always thought records were there to be broken,” Michael Schumacher, a star Formula 1 (f1) driver, said in 2013. At the time, his record of 91 career f1 victories looked safe: the closest active racer had just 32. Yet on October 11th Lewis Hamilton of Britain equalled the mark. Mr Hamilton is also on pace to tie Mr Schumacher’s record of seven f1 championships later this year.

    Mr Hamilton’s ascent has ignited debate over whether he is f1’s best driver ever. Comparing athletes across eras is always hard—especially in motor sports, where a racer depends on his car. Moreover, f1 has regularly changed its scoring system and its number of races, drivers and teams.

    However, statistical analysis can address many of these nuances. We have built a mathematical model, based on a study by Andrew Bell of the University of Sheffield, to measure the impact of all 745 drivers in f1 history. It finds that Mr Hamilton’s best years fall just short of those of the all-time greats—but so do Mr Schumacher’s.

    The model first converts orders of finish into points, using the 1991-2002 system of ten points for a win and six for second place. It adjusts these scores for structural effects, such as the number and past performances of other drivers in the race. Then, it splits credit between drivers and their vehicles. (Today, f1 has ten teams, each using two drivers and one type of car.)
    Disentangling these factors is tricky. Mr Schumacher spent most of his peak at Ferrari, as Mr Hamilton has at Mercedes, leaving scant data on their work in other cars.

    However, their teammates varied. And drivers who raced alongside Mr Hamilton or Mr Schumacher tended to fare far better in those stints than they did elsewhere. If Ferrari’s and Mercedes’ engineers boosted lesser racers this much, they probably aided their stars to a similar degree. Because most drivers switch teams a few times, this method can be applied throughout history.
    Between the two racers with 91 wins, the model prefers Mr Schumacher. He won 1.9 more points per race than an average driver would have done in the same events and cars, edging out Mr Hamilton’s mark of 1.8. Limited to their five best consecutive years, the gap widens, to 2.7 points per race for Mr Schumacher and 2.0 for Mr Hamilton.

    This difference stems mostly from the impact of their cars. Both stars raced in the finest vehicles of their day. But 20 years ago, cars from Williams and McLaren were nearly as strong as Ferrari’s. In contrast, Mercedes now towers over its rivals, enabling Mr Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas, his teammate, to coast past lesser cars. Before joining Mercedes, Mr Bottas had never won a f1 race. He now has nine victories.

    Yet on a per-race basis, the greats of yesteryear beat both modern stars. Three of the model’s top four drivers stopped racing by 1973; the leader, the Argentine Juan Manuel Fangio, won five titles in the 1950s.

    These pioneers had short careers. Fangio started just 51 races, to Mr Schumacher’s 306. However, the model is impressed by them, because the impact of cars relative to drivers has grown over time. On average, it assigns drivers in the 1950s 58% of their teams’ points; today, that share is 19%. Fangio, who was a mechanic by training and won titles using cars from four different firms, was known as “the master”. The masters of modern f1 are engineers who sit behind laptops, not steering wheels.
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    Good thing you focused on just F1.

    Because in the all time- all around category it brings in some Yanks... Mario, AJ, Gurney, Donahue

    F1 - I go with Sir Jackie. Points for giving back to the sport in terms of safety. Points for even living to tell about it in his period.

    YMMV

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    I have long had the same #1 driver as this list and probably agree with #2 but Prost?!?! Even if he was on my top 8 list, Senna would certainly be above him.
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    Contributing Member DaveW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garey Guzman View Post
    I have long had the same #1 driver as this list and probably agree with #2 but Prost?!?! Even if he was on my top 8 list, Senna would certainly be above him.
    Prost was more of a brilliant politician than Senna, and it served him well. But that, IMO, does not make him a better driver.
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    1. Clark
    2. Schumacher
    3. Fangio
    4. Hamilton
    5. Senna
    6. Stewart
    7. Lauda
    8. Moss
    9. Prost
    10. Vettel

    It's hard to compare eras due to factors like number of races per year, danger factor, and technology jumps. I also figure in the ability to adapt to multiple cars and also different disciplines. Andretti would be pretty close if he'd run more.

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    Senior Member tige00's Avatar
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    Problem putting Hamilton so high is he really never raced a field of great drivers like the past drivers have, each year it's only 1 or 2 serious contenders. And always in the best car, so an asterisk on Hamilton for me.

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    Senior Member fitfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tige00 View Post
    Problem putting Hamilton so high is he really never raced a field of great drivers like the past drivers have, each year it's only 1 or 2 serious contenders. And always in the best car, so an asterisk on Hamilton for me.
    can also compare how competitive they are against teammates, hamilton is not overly impressive against his teammates, in fact his team would have won most every world championship WITHOUT hamilton. that is - the teams did't really need him to win. contemporaries like Vettel are the opposite, the team won world championships BECAUSE OF vettel and his team mates would not have delivered a championship when he did. i would rank vettel well above hamiltion for those reasons.

    i put hamilton pretty low too. i WOULD rank him as the luckiest driver, always seems to land a seat with the best team.
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    I care far more about style over success during a great era of any team.

    With that:
    1). Gilles!!!
    2). Senna
    3). Prost
    4). Lauda
    5). Clark
    6). Hamilton
    7). Schumacher
    8). Peterson
    9). Stewart
    10). Fangio

    Several more come close.

    If not mistaken, Damon Hill may have the best wins-to-starts ratio of all. Alan Jones, Keke Rosberg, James Hunt, and Mario all won titles in relatively-short careers. Moss and Nuvolari are hard omissions, too.
    Last edited by E1pix; 11.02.20 at 4:07 PM. Reason: The sun is in my eyes

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    If you prefer style, you have to include Scheckter.Six wheel drifts are awesome.

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    Oh God Yes!

    He in F5000 was surreal. He led the first laps of my first GP, Watkins Glen 1976, in the P34.

    Good call, Bardahl!

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    Phil Hill might be in there too if you consider how few F1 races they had in a year. As far as that goes in the fifties and sixties at Ferrari a driver was lucky to live through just one season with them. Phil drove whatever was available to some extent too including a lot of sports car and endurance races.

    The best all rounder was Mario. AJ probably too if he would have fit in a F1 car.

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    Contributing Member TimH's Avatar
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    Interesting that until you add U.S. drivers and go outside F1 everyone's names stay pretty much the same and the only thing that changes is the order. Further proof that comparing across generations is kinda hopeless. If you expand the list you then have to add Jeff Gordon...

    I disagree with the Economist model if only because it seems to discount the driver's ability to affect the quality of the team and car at least as much as vice versa. That's really the only reason I have to respect Shuey.

    Oh, and for Senna vs. Prost it seemed to me The Professor, outside of qualifying, was generally just fast enough to equal the youngster in equal cars. That was a team for the ages.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tige00 View Post
    Problem putting Hamilton so high is he really never raced a field of great drivers like the past drivers have, each year it's only 1 or 2 serious contenders. And always in the best car, so an asterisk on Hamilton for me.
    Most of the time when someone refers to him as the greatest they add "in the hybrid era" - which is true.

    In any sport the variables are so vast any so-called statistical analysis is still going to contain some subjective elements.
    And what variables are included is also subjective.

    So then we're stuck with OPINION - and as they say everybody has one.

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    Contributing Member Kazis31's Avatar
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    Miguel Fangio.
    Jim Clark.
    SR Jackie Stewart.
    Alan Prost.
    Michael.Schumacher.
    Gilles Villinueve.
    Nikki Lauda.
    Ayrton Senna.
    Fernando Alonso.
    SR Stirling Moss.
    Kimi Raikkonen.
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    Contributing Member Offcamber1's Avatar
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    Default OK, I give up

    Quote Originally Posted by John Nesbitt View Post

    However, statistical analysis can address many of these nuances. We have built a mathematical model, based on a study by Andrew Bell of the University of Sheffield, to measure the impact of all 745 drivers in f1 history. It finds that Mr Hamilton’s best years fall just short of those of the all-time greats—but so do Mr Schumacher’s.

    Who were the 10 worst?
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    Default obviously,

    Masten Gregory

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    Contributing Member TimH's Avatar
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    DeCrasheris
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    Senior Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by provamo View Post
    Masten Gregory
    Masten had some eccentricates but he was very respected in his day. He was fast, and fearless. Jumping out was his strategy in a crash in those pre seat belt days. His thick glasses made him look like Mr Magoo but he could drive!

    Definitely not the worst.

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    Add "sportsmanship" or integrity on and off track and everything shifts again.
    In my opinion, a win is worthless if it's gotten with foul play. Overly aggressive tactics detract.

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    Worst? Taki Inoue. He even says so himself. Bonus points for getting run over by the safety car - twice. Once in the car under tow at Monaco, once out of the car in Hungary.

  32. #21
    Contributing Member John Nesbitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristopherBernard View Post
    Add "sportsmanship" or integrity on and off track and everything shifts again.
    In my opinion, a win is worthless if it's gotten with foul play. Overly aggressive tactics detract.
    For sportsmanship, it would be hard to top Stirling Moss, who helped Mike Hawthorn finish a race and, by doing so, cost himself the 1958 world championship.

    https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/2...d-championship
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    Contributing Member TimH's Avatar
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    "That's just Sterling, Moss." Also a great ambassador for the sport. Jackie was good, too, but he got paid for it.
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    if you ask me which is the greatest driver (again)

    all I can do is respond with "which generation of driver?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Nesbitt View Post
    For sportsmanship, it would be hard to top Stirling Moss, who helped Mike Hawthorn finish a race and, by doing so, cost himself the 1958 world championship.

    https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/2...d-championship

    I would think that David Purley would have to be right up there in terms of sportsmanship. Like, RIGHT up there near the top. Others drove by. Not him

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    Quote Originally Posted by billtebbutt View Post
    I would think that David Purley would have to be right up there in terms of sportsmanship. Like, RIGHT up there near the top. Others drove by. Not him

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    Agreed. And, to that list, you would have to add Mike Hailwood.
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    Don't believe you can compare drivers across eras. The different eras of F1 have presented very different challenges to the drivers participating vs. the challenges of other eras.

    Fangio, as great as he was in the era in which he participated would not even be able to physically get into or out of F1 cars of the present era. His physical stature is too large for today's F1.

    For good or for ill, today's F1 has the most competitive lineup of cars and drivers, top to bottom, that has EVER existed in F1.

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    I can only speak to the era when I watched F1 first hand, and that means it's Schumacher. For me, it goes beyond his records and is more about how he achieved them. Everyone rags on him and says he didn't earn his championship because he just had the best car. Well, he was an instrumental part in creating that car. When he left Benetton he could have went to Williams and won championships right away. Instead, in his prime, he went to Ferrari who had sucked for almost two decades and built a dynasty. One of the reasons I don't watch F1 anymore is because of all the off season seat jumping. Stay, be a team, and build something. Also, those first two seasons with Ferrari those cars were absolute garbage and he damn near won with them, and had he not broken his leg at Silverstone he likely would have won that year.

    I can't see any modern driver in their prime, coming off back-to-back championship seasons, choosing to go a back marker team to rebuild them. Would Hamilton do that? No way in hell.

    The cons would be his two intentional crashes into opponents to seal a championship. I like to think he just lost his mind momentarily but it is fair criticism. It's hard to have a multi-decade career and not have a few black marks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmi16 View Post
    For good or for ill, today's F1 has the most competitive lineup of cars and drivers, top to bottom, that has EVER existed in F1.
    There are differences and similarities. For example, the 1967 USGP, the range from pole to last was about 6.5 sec, with the last 3 cars over 107%. Jimmy Clark and Graham Hill lapped the entire field at least once, and only 7 cars finished.

    2020 races, the pole to last is usually less than 2 sec, with the front 2/3 or 3/4 of the field separated by less then a second. It's much rarer for mechanical DNFs now as well. Car technology has gotten to a point where even the crap cars are amazingly fast, compared to things like F2 chassis with a DFV stuffed in or 5 year old McLarens like there once was.

    Finally, these days with so many races in a season we don't get to see top F1 drivers at Indy, Le Mans, BTCC and the like the way they used to when there were only 10-13 races a season. That's why I put Jimmy Clark as the greatest, watch video of him in a Lotus Cortina.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reidhazelton View Post
    I can only speak to the era when I watched F1 first hand, and that means it's Schumacher. For me, it goes beyond his records and is more about how he achieved them. Everyone rags on him and says he didn't earn his championship because he just had the best car. Well, he was an instrumental part in creating that car. When he left Benetton he could have went to Williams and won championships right away. Instead, in his prime, he went to Ferrari who had sucked for almost two decades and built a dynasty. One of the reasons I don't watch F1 anymore is because of all the off season seat jumping. Stay, be a team, and build something. Also, those first two seasons with Ferrari those cars were absolute garbage and he damn near won with them, and had he not broken his leg at Silverstone he likely would have won that year.

    I can't see any modern driver in their prime, coming off back-to-back championship seasons, choosing to go a back marker team to rebuild them. Would Hamilton do that? No way in hell.

    The cons would be his two intentional crashes into opponents to seal a championship. I like to think he just lost his mind momentarily but it is fair criticism. It's hard to have a multi-decade career and not have a few black marks.
    I am not a Schumacher fan. But I have to say, watching him drive the wheels off the clearly inferior Ferrari in the early days, that was something for the ages. Just WOW. He wailed on that thing.

    Hamilton? Driving the wheels off the car? I haven't seen it. Then again, Hamilton does have his own pony-tail handler to help him get his helmet on ..... So, there's that.
    (wanker)


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    Hamilton is one of the new "manufactured" drivers, it's almost like they're grown somewhere. Most of them have famous or quasi-famous driver relatives, or rich daddies. Although I give Hamilton credit for being good enough in crappy karts to get noticed by Ron Dennis.

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    Talking about jumping to a ****ty team well hands down goes to Damen Hill, wins championship with William's, then went to jordan, WOW. Ferrari way better than jordan

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    What about Emmo, having four seasons where he was either first or second in the championship, then jumping from McLaren to his brother's Copersucar team. Bets on him winning in '76 since it wouldn't have given Hunt the McLaren seat?

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    1: Fangio
    2: Senna
    3: Hamilton
    4: Hunt
    5: Sir Jackie
    6: Luca Badoer
    7. Andrea de Cesaris
    8: Maldonado
    9. Ralf Schuey
    10. Ralf's older brother

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    Quote Originally Posted by tige00 View Post
    Talking about jumping to a ****ty team well hands down goes to Damen Hill, wins championship with William's, then went to jordan, WOW. Ferrari way better than jordan
    Hill actually went to Arrows after Williams and very nearly won in Hungary. I think that was one of only two points finishes though. On his day Hill could beat Schumacher and I don’t think he gets the credit he deserves.

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    From an old thread; I still like Villeneuve more than Senna, but on every other day, I flip my opinion as to which of the two was the greatest. {Fangio is just a nod to the past]

    I am not a rabid F1 fan, as most championships go to the guy with the best car, the races are usually parades, and the press is paid to sing the praises of the winners, so Hamilton and Shumacher don't impress me as much as their records would suggest. It seems Rossberg could beat Hamilton when he was allowed to, as could Button, and Barachello never was allowed to beat Michael. Excellent drivers all, no doubt, but somewhat artificial numbers, more or less. Still, as psycho as I think he was, I think Senna has to be in the top three ever. Yes, he had the right car often, and Prost could beat him at times, but his Monaco races alone shows a talent and dedication / commitment that was beyond what most could do, or would do. And Prost may have beaten him at times, but then, Prost was a first rate talent too, with skill and dedication and Talent to run with almost anyone.

    I will always love Villeneuve for the Dijon race, and his sideways, exuberant, hell-on-wheels style of driving, and his never-give-up attitude. He wasn't a long term calculator, so championships were never going to be big in his legacy, but even Frank Williams thought he was always a special talent, as did most of his contemporaries.

    I like Mario, and he gets credit for bravery for sure. He was fast, and as versatile as anyone, ever. Sadly, the opportunities for that kind of versatility are not really available to the more recent drivers, due to contracts and lawyers, more than talent, I think. How should this weigh against the newer class, that don't have the opportunity for versatility? I don't rate Mario as high as you, but still one of the greats., for sure


    And then there is the concept of what it took to drive the old cars vs what it takes to drive the new ones. Would Fangio, over-weight, used to huge steering inputs, low G force cars, adapt to the no-shocks, skirts and wings, mega-horsepower rockets that Piquet drove? Would Shumacher be fast if he didn't have downforce and big tires? [Would he be as fast if every year, he lost a fellow driver?]

    Montoya deserves a slot, as does Fittipaldi, so I might need a bakers dozen to keep Jim in the list.

    So, here's my list [at least, today]:

    1; Senna ; Unearthly talent, insane dedication, a bit psycho
    2: Fangio: Before my time, judging from reputation and results
    3: Villineuve: A racer to the core, vast speed, a threat in any race
    4. Clark: again, by reputation, record, and a rare old movie
    5. Stewart; The Nurbergring, Monaco, the titles, the risks. Definitely one of the best and bravest. Leader of the safety movement
    6. Lauda: Courage, speed, and smart
    7: Prost: The professor. an engineers view point, with the speed to make it work
    8: Alonzo: Tenacious, fast, versatile, exciting to watch, deserves more titles that he has
    9: Mario: F1 title, in the best car, but also CART titles when it meant more than F1 titles, wins in everything with wheels, courage
    10.Fitipaldi: F1 and CART, when CART was the best racing on Earth. If he'd not gone to his brother's team, he'd have more titles
    11. Montoya: F1, Indy 500; Didn't do as well as hoped for in NASCAR, but then, NASCAR is an engineering forum [and still he won]
    12.Hamilton: Immature, pampered, always with an unbeatable car, but still,a rare talent


    If you branch out beyond F1, Foyt, Donahue, and a host of others come to mind, but you're gonna need a bigger list

    And still, we are involved in driving toy cars, in a rough approximation of a circle, ending up right where we started, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. [But it's FUN!]
    Jim
    Swift DB-1
    Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.

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  57. #36
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    Something that always amazed me about Donohue, he jumped into a McLaren for his first ever F1 race in Canada, and in appalling weather conditions finished on the podium behind Stewart and Peterson. He'd have great finishes and always complain about how the car wasn't really right.

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  59. #37
    Senior Member t walgamuth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmi16 View Post
    Don't believe you can compare drivers across eras. The different eras of F1 have presented very different challenges to the drivers participating vs. the challenges of other eras.

    Fangio, as great as he was in the era in which he participated would not even be able to physically get into or out of F1 cars of the present era. His physical stature is too large for today's F1.

    For good or for ill, today's F1 has the most competitive lineup of cars and drivers, top to bottom, that has EVER existed in F1.
    Oh he was not that fat. He could have gotten in with a little work.

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  61. #38
    Senior Member Jerry Kehoe's Avatar
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    Default best driver

    Not sure that drivers can be lumped into a single category, each era really was on its own and the best came to the top. In the early days living through it had a special meaning when a single mechanical issue or mistake, or oil on the track, or no guard rails could and did send lots of drivers to the morgue. Would the more current guys be as good with the risks? Who knows but the bottom line in each era some guys excel and go to the top. Celebration should be for that time and circumstance along with the acknowledgement each was the best in their time!

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    Classifieds Super License swiftdrivr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
    Oh he was not that fat. He could have gotten in with a little work.
    Marie Osmond could have gotten him in the car by the second race.


    Too bad these guys never went there,or I'd need an even longer list.

    AJ Foyt
    Rick Mears
    Jeff Gordon
    and maybe Al Unser [either of them] or Johnny Rutherford

    I'd pay big bucks to see a good FF race with the top 20, any day. Of course, look at the bright side; Could that race be any tighter than the last FF runoffs at Road America, or more exiting than Villeneuve vs Arnoux? We have witnessed most of the golden age of racing, it's not over yet, and some of it's in our own club!
    Jim
    Swift DB-1
    Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.

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  64. #40
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    Okay, just watched Arnoux vs Gilles again. Maybe we should start a list of drivers who have had the most intense dices. Arnoux may not come on the list of the greatest [could be argued. I guess] but he certainly got in some of the best RACING of anyone in a F1 car.
    anyone got a "next best" wheel to wheel dice?
    Jim
    Swift DB-1
    Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.

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